Believing in delusions make them true?

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
I was listening to a youtube vid when someone who seemed to be an ex talked about how they still subscribe to the dogma 'whatever is true for you is true'.

Horse biscuits.

Just because someone believes in a fallacy doesn't make it automatically true. If what is 'true to them' happens to really be not true, then they are simply deluded. If they think they have the power to make something true by simply believing it's true, why do they think they need the cult?

I believe Hubbard was an 'ultra-thelemist', which means he considered his will to do something gave him the right to do it. I also think he believed he could alter reality with his 'postulates' and that the more people he got believing something, the more true it would be, or something along those lines.

Huh-uh. Doesn't happen.

Sure, you can delude lots of people to believing something that isn't true, but it doesn't make it true, no matter how 'true' it is to you!

It's distressing to me to find out about people that have broken away from the cult, but continue to hold on to these false doctrines. This is just one of a few I've ran across.

I say throw the baby out with the bathwater, because I think it was Rosemary's.
 

arcxcauseblows

Patron Meritorious
Axiom 27


An actuality can exist for one individually, but when it is agreed with by others it can be said to be a reality.


want to make your delusions a reality? SURE! they'll sell you that, until you run out of credit cards anyway...

then you find out they aren't even selling you your own delusions, they're selling you lafayette's delusions
 

Francois Tremblay

Patron with Honors
I've seen other cult leaders formulate it as well. The principle is incorrect as formulated. It could only be correct at the social or group level (or as Hubbard would say, third dynamic).

Because Western societies (and most technologically advanced societies) are highly abstract and only distantly connected to the necessities for survival in nature, and mostly run on social constructs, it is true, to that extent, that "what is assumed true in your society must be true within that society." And the same is true of any closed group, such as Scientology.

Hubbard said the e-meter worked. And Scientologists believed it worked.
Hubbard said there were Clear. And Scientologists thought there were Clear.
Hubbard said there were OT. And Scientologists thought there were OTs.
Hubbard said to find BTs. And people found BTs.

I don't believe any of those things "correspond to reality" (or however you want to define objective truth). But they were true to (ex-)Scientologists. The more closed and authoritarian a society, or a group, is, the less you can see outside of it.

I think that within a cult it really boils down to "whatever the leader says is true, better as hell be true for you."
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.



I you did not believe that Psychiatrists were "Whole-track SP implanters" you might be able to seek the help you so desperately need.

Not only does Scientology destroy critical thinking, it prevents one from getting ​real help.

If you don't believe me, ask one of your friends here.
 

Jump

Operating teatime
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.


A subject devised by an avaricious con-man to keep him in coin (and pinks&greys) (and rum) (and gaming chips) and to have prepubescent girls in hotpants running his bath, and have deluded followers obeying his command down to pushing a peanut around the deck of the boat with his nose.

That's the guy to study and invest in.


:clap:
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.

Leon I think you'll find ridiculing the ridiculous is mostly what's done on this board and
propping up the preposterous is left to the hooberdites :yes::thumbsup: who are needed and loved
for the serious delivery that any good straight man delivers the setup for us sheep baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :yes::coolwink:
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.

How much money do you make off of those still under the blanket delusion of scientology? How many of those people read the posts here and need to have that delusion reaffirmed when posts like this one pop up?
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
The fact that this nonsense gets such wide agreement here on this board shows how little these writers understand of the subject they condemn.

I'll just leave it at that, before I get accused of calling you of being sheep.

Since you didn't quote anything, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean my post was nonsense? If so, in what way?

Are you saying you believe that whatever you decide is true makes it so? Or are you condemning this doctrine? There are still a few on this board who seem to subscribe to it.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
snip

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Oh Leon honey

Get outta there :biggrin:

Goooood boy - Gooooooooood boy :yes:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
<snip>
The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

<snip>


So, if I disagree with Hubbard's schizophrenic delusions then I had just become apathetic about his Whole Track "discoveries"?

Due to extensive auditing a PC "sees" that their garage door has disappeared (AS-ISed).
They are astounded and run up to put their hands on it to verify it.
Anyone else sees that the garage door is STILL there.
Is this a case of delusion OR is it a case of "agreement creates reality"?
 
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pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
Rmack, the idea that we created reality by agreement was never new with Hubbard. He got it from the ancients in India or wherever, and he said so himself.

The"agreements" you make with other people in this present state of reality is only the tiniest shadow of a whim of a hint of the original agreements that you did subscribe to and participate in fully at the time the universe was created. Again, this is not Hubbard's invented idea. It has been around a long time.

What Hubbard did point out - and as far as I know this originated with himself - is that the apparent solidity and unresponsiveness of matter to your decisions at present is entirely due to the fact that you have been overwhelmed by it so often and so thoroughly that you, I, and all of us, are in complete apathy on the subject of doing something about the state of reality, and that (just in theory, mind you) this state can be changed by taking more and ever increasingly more responsibility for the fact of your own apathy on the subject.

Now, what I have written here above is just plain ordinary basic Scientology that we, in my Org, (well, not mine, but the Org where I was) expected every common or garden Scientologist to know these things. And they did.

Which makes me wonder why so many people on this board don't know it. What were you doing when you were involved in the CofS? Did you study the materials? read the books, listen to the lectures, do the training that was offered? You know - do what a Scio is supposed to do.

Or did you just pay money and wait for a ride to OT? Or - even worse - join the Sea Org and run around chasing butterflies with your time?

I understand the concept. It's a nice one, and one that I once very much wanted to believe in. But I've never seen any evidence that anyone, in scn or out, can influence physical reality by adjusting their "agreement." So as far as I'm concerned this is just philosophical musing.

What I would say happened is that LRH got us to agree to a delusion that he created, and this enabled him to live the life he wanted to live. Being surrounded by sycophants who did his bidding was his idea of "being OT."

To what degree LRH subscribed to the delusion himself I don't know. How much of scn was con and how much was actual "tech"? I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that; even if he was still alive, we could never rely on LRH for a straight answer.

I trained up to permanent Cl IV C/S. So yes, I read the books, listened to the lectures, etc., some several times.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
And with all that training and auditing experience did you never see even one person get any real genuine benefit from it?

Were they all bullshitting all the time?


Because by the time I was that level of training I had seen genuine benefits enough to fill a thick book.
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hubbard was very good at telling us all what to do, what to think, how to become OT blah blah.

Yet look at him and his own life. If he knew anything more about life than any average person he wouldn't have been such an unethical, lying, untrustworthy person who couldn't even go exterior let alone visit different planets and save the universe.

The way he ended-up, alone in a trailer, on drugs, seemingly demented and hiding from justice sums it up for me.

When anyone says: "Hubbard said ..." I feel sorry for the person saying it because it is totally pointless paying any attention to what he said.

Same goes for "Captain" Bill Robertson and all the other bullshitting deluded nobodies who tried to become somebodies by lying and cheating their fellow man.

Rant over.:carryon:
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hubbard was very good at telling us all what to do, what to think, how to become OT blah blah.

Yet look at him and his own life. If he knew anything more about life than any average person he wouldn't have been such an unethical, lying, untrustworthy person who couldn't even go exterior let alone visit different planets and save the universe.

The way he ended-up, alone in a trailer, on drugs, seemingly demented and hiding from justice sums it up for me.

When anyone says: "Hubbard said ..." I feel sorry for the person saying it because it is totally pointless paying any attention to what he said.

Same goes for "Captain" Bill Robertson and all the other bullshitting deluded nobodies who tried to become somebodies by lying and cheating their fellow man.

Rant over.:carryon:

Yes but.....I agree but.....

Here's the bottom line:

Hubbard wanted admiration and he wanted lots of $$$

He created this reality for quite a time, with thousands of adoring people hanging on his every word, and millions of dollars in the bank. At THAT, he succeeded.

But he knew it would not last, and he knew he would not become a god. And he knew there was no such things as Clear or OT. And he knew, after awhile, that the more he tried to create a sure route to God-like states and perfect sanity, the more insane he would become.

But for a time, he was loved and adored, and he was rich.

The price for attempting to reach the other goal, was ending up alone and insane.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
I am reducing the MEST universe to zero and my universe to inifinity....

I am reducing the MEST universe to zero and my universe to inifinity....

I am reducing the MEST universe to zero and my universe to inifinity....


149309791_zpsacrdnq6g.jpg

 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
No, believing in delusions does not make them true. Ever. That is why they are called delusions. LOL

Hubbard told people what they wanted to hear: that they were super powerful thetans capable of incredible abilities. And all of their power was locked away in some ethereal "box" and if one were to simply remove the engrams, service facs, GPMs and BTs surrounding that box, then all of that power would be freed and the thetan would return to it's former glory as a god-like being, a homo novis.

Of course this is all a lie that Hubbard sold to millions of people. He never, ever achieved this state of being and died sick and old not ever having changed the laws of physics by 'as-ising', changing 'agreements' or 'considerations' or any other such nonsense.
 
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