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BIG BEINGS - Do they exist? Are you one?

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
The concept (how Post Modernist) of Big Being must have been thought of by a man.

Competitive existance.

Im bigger than you are.

You can be a big louder than life being and mess things up and have no friends you can be sweet shy and gentle and get lots done. Size is unimportant it's what you do with it that counts, same in theta as it is in male chickens (cocks).
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Yep, loudness doesn't count one iota!

The concept (how Post Modernist) of Big Being must have been thought of by a man.

Competitive existance.

Im bigger than you are.

You can be a big louder than life being and mess things up and have no friends you can be sweet shy and gentle and get lots done. Size is unimportant it's what you do with it that counts, same in theta as it is in male chickens (cocks).

Probably a great example of a sweet, shy, gentle, gets lots done candidate would be Mother Teresa. I like Gandhi in this guise as well. I like Anwar Sadat of Egypt and the way he sought peace and faced death. Size is unimportant, so true, but in a being such as Mother Teresa, something is big so what would you call it, Commitment or responsibility level?

Lakey
 

Div6

Crusader
Mine is BIGGER than yours!!!! :clap:

Oh, and they don't "misuse" the concepts. Not at all. They apply them correctly just as Hubbard intended, and as he clearly spelled them out. With the meanings for these terms just as Hubbard defined them, and within the context he created (for all those who buy into the whole Scientology package deal)! I see the same subtle and not-so-subtle "hidden standards" appear with "non-institutional Scientologists" as I do with the other variety. In the end, THAT depends only on to what degree any person still agrees with and thinks with Hubbardian ideas.

My point on "measuring" is to STOP measuring. Stop any and all sort of judgment about "appropriateness of the effect" or "true quality", or blah-blah-blah. The ACT of judging, in any way, to any degree, as a mental activity, as an activity of awareness, has a great deal to do with HOW and WHY any point of consciousness so drastically separates him or herself out and away from unfettered Brahma (or "static"). ANY judging will always be arbitrary in some regard, and there is "no correct" way to judge. The act of judging is limiting - in all cases. LRH and Scientology provide and enforce a very severe and strict system of judgment. That has a detrimental effect.

Hmmm....

In quantum physics, the mere act of LOOKING limits range of knowledge.

See Observer Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)


It seems to be built in to the woof and warp of this current reality field we are sharing.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hmmm....

In quantum physics, the mere act of LOOKING limits range of knowledge.

See Observer Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)


It seems to be built in to the woof and warp of this current reality field we are sharing.

This effect happens IMO because one creates what one sees. Something seen from a different perspective changes the thing because the perspective of create has changed to some degree. Perspective has moved from some level of unconscious create to some level of conscious create. One's present reality influences how one sees all things and the thing itself.

Which is a good reason Hubbard's postulate idea is a trap. One creates from present reality. One can change "things" from present reality. But understanding won't grow, one will simply see one's creation, in Hubbard's ideology, as THE "truth".
 

hbeer

Patron with Honors
I was sure that I would never quit Scn. Had the organization actually pursued with vigor the lofty goals and codes which it claimed were its backbone and fiber, I never would have left. It took about 30 years of taking crap from the Organization before I finally wised up and threw in the towel.

I should have wised up decades earlier than I did, its easy to see that from the current perspective, here in 2010. I think that once one builds a life around a belief system that he entered due to being lonely, he or she has extreme trouble leaving that belief system for fear of returning to his or her prior lonely existence.

Lakey


Well, I think the spirit that has animated the Scientology body - which then "exteriorized" when that body started to rot alive - is just about to re-incarnate. New "cells" are forming everywhere. The question is only how much a person still has to contribute to the higher dynamics. I have found that most had only a certain amount of life force to spend for such contribution, and when that was spent, they wanted to return to more private games and simply enjoy life.



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hbeer

Patron with Honors
To direct mockery, accusation and injustice at the church from the outside will not enable the victims to correctly understand what happened to them and why their lives were so damaged. All it will do is just the opposite, it will beef up the memories of what happened, and cause a lot of unneeded hate and frustration and remembrance of loss to those who were victims. Doing what you are recommending will only solidify and beef up the incidents in the minds of the victims and fester more hate and frustration to further entrap the victims.
Lakey



That is very well stated, Lakey. Basically these people have to run out their experiences in auditing sessions where they can completely take them apart in all detail, see who caused what, and erase the effort they have stored in their mind (mental masses).

Freezone auditing more often than not starts with running out the time in the church!



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hbeer

Patron with Honors
The point of this board is mockery, injustice and accusation. Except it is directed AT Scientology instead of from it.


Is that stated somewhere in the board rules? If so, I would stop posting. But I don't really believe it. Nobody wants to operate on such a tone level for any longer time. Well, nearly nobody :)




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nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Is that stated somewhere in the board rules? If so, I would stop posting. But I don't really believe it. Nobody wants to operate on such a tone level for any longer time. Well, nearly nobody :)




.

Look at what goes on! Phooey, you guys are no fun, you fall over.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
That is very well stated, Lakey. Basically these people have to run out their experiences in auditing sessions where they can completely take them apart in all detail, see who caused what, and erase the effort they have stored in their mind (mental masses).

Freezone auditing more often than not starts with running out the time in the church!



.

Auditing doesn't work exactly because of the above idea. You don't even know the setup of this place, dear. You ought to get out more.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Hmmm....

In quantum physics, the mere act of LOOKING limits range of knowledge.

See Observer Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)


It seems to be built in to the woof and warp of this current reality field we are sharing.

I agree, that the state of any observer greatly affects, even creates, what is observed. This is true for all states of consciousness.

I suspect you are correct, with "It seems to be built in to the woof and warp of this current reality field we are sharing".

BUT, one can take personal strides to allow all judgments to fade away for self, while still remaining THERE looking. I have experimented with that, and when I allow judgments to fade (as an additive to "looking"), I tend to "get lost" as a viewpoint, my space expands, sometimes tremendously, and I feel "at one" with whatever I am observing. Sense of separation disappears. Sense of "self" largely vanishes and recedes as a factor. This is common in studies done of people claiming "mystical experiences". This is all quite real to me, based on many personal experiences with altered states of consciousness. It was very similar to what I experienced when I went exterior on TR0 and with various auditing.

In alignment with what Nexus was saying, I also tend to suspect that we create our reality, as we go, moment by moment, right down to the physical universe that we perceive and experience. But, I see that this created reality comes into being through "postulates" or "considerations". Any person considers it to be so, and it is so. Or in terms of a Biblical analogy, "God said, Let There Be Light, and there was Light". Simple. Say it is, and it is. Creation by fiat alone. I currently understand of no other way to bring anything to existence (for self or others). Of course, one can do that knowingly or unknowingly. And, there are few reading this who can willingly and immediately abandon all postulates and considerations that hold the MEST universe there FOR YOU. And, BANG, have it disappear (for you), with YOU still there.

For me, I cannot see or understand any other factor existing below or between the entity (being, thetan) and the perception of a reality, other than considerations and postulates. THEY are the programming of the MATRIX. They are what form any person's "reality". Of course, "reality" derives from "agreement". That Scn idea makes complete sense to me. And, agreement is nothing else BUT co-postulating WITH some other person or pre-existing postulate. Agreement involves going along for the ride, on someone else's considerations. When you agree, you buy into some already existing idea or reality. You co-create it instantly when you agree. The process is largely unconscious for most of us.

This sort of makes sense to me. In the beginning was Nothingness. Pure potential to be, but a VOID. One can think of this as the "whole universe", or as "ones self". Once any NOTHINGNESS (static, Brahma) makes a decision or choice to "be somewhere" and to "view from a separate location", thereby sets into motion all sorts of "rules" and "conditions". Why? Because, you agree that it does. It is ALL illusion, in that all else involves some CREATED thing. The ONLY actual basic truth is the CREATOR - all else is arbitrary. The only unchanging aspect to all that is, is the creator. The possibilities for created things are infinite. Truly.

And, between being immersed in the experience of the "created", and becoming one with the full creative aspect of the Creator, involves realities and universes, and possible near infinities of time.

Nexus, doesn't one always see ones creation as "truth", or at least as "real"? If one stops participating in the activity of creation, as and from a viewpoint, I suspect that one would simply meld back into the Void. The observer and the observed would collapse back into "nothingness". That has happened to me, to some degree, during experiments into various meditations. I can see how the notion could be extrapolated out further.

I don't see that the theory of postulates, considerations and the creation of universes must always involve a trap. Yes, it must always involve an "illusion". No creation will ever involve basic fundamental "truth". There is the creator, and then there is everything else. And, everything else is undergoing endless cycles of birth, decay and death. Everything comes and goes, except that one aspect which underlies all that comes and goes.

Hubbard stated it somewhere, and I agree. This notion currently makes sense to me, in alignment with much other eastern/occult/New Age information. The only truth is the invisible creator (static). The "truth" involves what "it" is, what "it" does, and how "it" does what it does in creating. Anything seen or experienced is an "illusion" - a painting of the painter. But, the painter and the painting are not the same, and not of the same fundamental "importance" in the grand scheme of things. But, people only see the painting, they become hypnotized by the paintings, and they often entirely lose sight of the painter - without whom no paintings could or would exist.

Here's my judgment in all of this. A legitimate spiritual path would bring one back to a relationship with the "creator", ideally at some point, face-to-face, and best, where all sense of self eventually dissolves into and with the creator. But, this can involve many facets, and each person requires or IS a different Path back to God (be careful what you read into THAT word). The distinction between the creator and the created (or observer and observed) is fundamentally a false distinction - an illusion. Physics will figure that out eventually, but not anytime soon.

Scientology may be a "path" for some people, or at least a partial path, but it is surely NOT the total answer for everyone, not in any way along the lines that Hubbard so stupidly and arrogantly declared in KSW-type writings (rantings).
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
I have a great idea!

Everybody is playing with words here. On this thread.

Of course, DUH, a "static" can not be "measured". It is DEFINED in that way.

The Vedic idea is that the potential for all creation resides within Brahma. It is POTENTIAL.

Potential of any sort can only be measured by MANIFESTATIONS, by actual "results" in observable reality.

The emanations of spirit that appear as individual points of consciousness seem to possess different potentials, because the range of "effects" each "creates" varies so much from one to the next. From within the game, from a limited viewpoint, yes the potential of one being from the next seems to differ. No two things are equal, so of course. Duh!

Getting stuck in the details of manifested reality - getting wrapped up in all this thinkingness about "big", "small", "good", "bad", on and on ad nasuem. Beings can wrap themselves up in thinkingness for as many eternities as he or she feels like so doing.

One need only look around. The biased slanted view in Scientology depends on the notion of "size of the effect created or caused within the surrounding environment". The view and logic is simple. Larger effects, spread out over greater distances, implies a "larger being". Within the Scn mindset. The related ideas were clearly spelled out by Hubbard. It isn't very complicated what he stated. I don't "think with" any of that crap any longer, BUT one can observe it from afar, examine the ideas, and notice how these ideas affect behavior in those "thinking with the ideas", without getting "sucked in" oneself.

Obviously, different people create different types of effects, and effects with varying degrees of impact on the surrounding reality/realities. That is simply observable.

All this talk of "big beings", "small beings", "degraded beings", "suppressive beings" betrays a bias in the talker. There is a "hidden judgment" running throughout this entire thread, and for me personally, I have zero interest in that type of judgment.

Talk to a Christian, and a "big being" will mean something different (within their system of values). Ask a Muslim, you will get a different answer. Any talk about such a thing says more about the person doing the talking than anything about an "real" legitimacy to the notion of "big beings".

There are people who concern themselves with notions of "big beings". Why is that? Because, most people do NOT consider, worry about or spend any time thinking about such ideas.

The whole "big being" notion is inextricably tied up with the notion of "small", "degraded" and "lowly being". There is no "small" without "large". The entire realm of concepts involved in this is so incredibly based on JUDGMENTS. And, the subtle and not-so-subtle aspect of JUDGING was one thing I found so NOT likeable about participating with (any version of) Scientology. That is partially why I find this thread uninteresting. I truly have no interest in such things. I am expressing THAT viewpoint, and why I have THAT viewpoint. It is not an attack against anyone. It simply is the way I currently look at this.

There are people who create "big effects". You can infer that indicates a "big being", if you choose to. THAT is the ONLY indicator, by the way. The size of the effect created in the surrounding environment. But, I have little concern for "big effects". Hitler created "big effects", far out into his environment. From a Scn perspective, he must be a "big being". Unless, we want to add in the judgment of "good effects" or "bad effects". The same is true for Stalin, Lenin, Chairman Mao and many others. Who cares whether a being can be judged as "big"? It matters not at all to anything! It is completely irrelevant to the evolution of this planet. The only value it has will be for people who like to think and talk about such notions. Outside of THAT, it is meaningless.

My value system is so FAR removed from Scientology fixed ideas these days. That is all I am communicating here. For me, I find the TYPE of effect much more interesting than the "size" of the effect. THAT says so much more to me about the current state or condition of any being, than any concern for his or her ability to effect "large charges in ones environment". Again, that is all so droll to me. And, all of those ideas are "pure LRH Scientology".

What is the needle reaction for "No Interest"? That is what I have about this subject. :whistling:

Gadfly, I have a great idea, you Nexus and Div 6 are all very intelligent and creative and seem to share the same concepts. Why not start your own thread and take up your belief system on a thread of your own.

Also, the three of you seem to have the concept that the subject of Big Beingness is merely an artifice used by the organized Church of Scientology and its members to quantitatively categorize how big beings are so as to be able to control assert dominance and control over others by asserting that they are the biggest beings. Despite my repeated assertions and demonstrations that this is not the case, you continue to press forward with this same trite and non sequitur attacks against discussing the Big Being concept.

I do not think any other posters but you three have mentioned the concept of using the term "big beings" for asserting that one is bigger than others by virtue of some quantitative measurement. You three seem to have introduced the concept yoursellves and then continue to either bash the concept or keep it alive by accusing others of promoting it and then bashing others for subscribing to the concept, which no one actually believes in. You are all intelligent and perceptive people and it does not make any sense what you are doing so the only thing to account for it must be that you have some kind of agenda which you are trying to promote.

Your tactics are INTRODUCE A CONCEPT AND BASH OTHERS FOR BELIEVING IN IT AND USING IT (THOUGH NO ONE HERE ACTUALLY DOES) THEN WHEN THIS WEARS THIN, YOU BREATHE NEW LIFE INTO THE NONE EXISTENT CONCEPT BY BASHING MORE PEOPLE FOR USING IT (THOUGH NO ONE ACTUALLY DOES). The agenda seems to be to deflect people away from commenting on the actual topic of the thread by using this tactic and then once a reasonably large audience is built up, then you bring out a brand new and unrelated topic and the three of you start a new discussion group on your new topic, again deflecting discussion from the main topic of the thread.

I have no problem with any of this nonsense, it just drives up my stats, the number of reads and replies. The other posters here can still keep the original topic going just by treating your postings as background noise, and posting to the main topic. MY ONLY QUESTION IS IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TOPIC WE ARE DISCUSSING, WOULDN'T IT BE BETTER TO JUST IGNORE THIS THREAD AND START YOU OWN THREAD. You deserve the credit for the reponses you are generating yourselves and the topics you are leaning towards seem like they would be popular and well patronized if on their own thread. I, for one, am not going to read them any longer when they appear on this thread but would surely read and discuss them with you if you were to start your own thread.
Lakey
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have an agenda. So do you. So does everyone. One is either conscious of that agenda or not.

Why do you want to introduce Scientology terms and discuss them on an ex-Scientology forum, if you want buttermilk? You're not going to get it.
 

paul.spiritualquest

Patron with Honors
Reality is MADE by the observer

This effect happens IMO because one creates what one sees. Something seen from a different perspective changes the thing because the perspective of create has changed to some degree. Perspective has moved from some level of unconscious create to some level of conscious create. One's present reality influences how one sees all things and the thing itself. .

Div 6 said:
This Hmmm....
In quantum physics, the mere act of LOOKING limits range of knowledge.
See Observer Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observe..._(physics)
It seems to be built in to the woof and warp of this current reality field we are sharing.
.

It goes even further than that. Some people have problems translating from quantum mechanics formulas to interpretations of them.

Basically, looking at the Schrödinger cat paradox, and the Heisenberg uncertainty relation, we come to two amazing conclusions, as opposed to the Newtonian system:

1. Reality is ONLY created, once the observer LOOKS. Up to that moment, it is not yet bifurcated into one stream of possibility or the other. Hence, the OBSERVER creates reality by looking from his viewpoint. So reality is more an observer thing, than an observed thing. This is perfectly demonstrated by Schrödinger´s cat, that is alive-dead, and only is alive or dead, till the moment it is SEEN by the obsever. A very interesting idea, against Newton´s universe, where the universe exists independently form the observer. In quantum physics, and quantum mechanics, we only have results, after observing, but after observing we have AFFECTED reality, hence reality is influcenced heavily by observing. At least in the micro-molecular level, which then in terms of new age philosophy is extrapolated to any other aspect of human life.

2. In Heisenberg´s uncertainty formula, what is stated, is that paths, or space determination, is uncertain, we can only have a statistical probability of any event. The closer we determine time, then the space will be less determined or the other way round. What this basically means is that we don´t have a preicse position and time in space, in the micro-molecular level. This will affect our observed reality, and we can only have probabilistic guesses so to say as were a particle will be located at a certain time. This somehow is contrary to the EXACT time, place, form and event concept. If we have a definite time, we won´t have a precise space, and if we have a precise space, we won´t have a precise time. Physics, in that level, because a stastitical probability game, and less of a newtonian billiard pre-determination of path. Wether this again can be extrapolated to macro is another question.

Heisenberg and Schrödinger are the two top physicists of quantum mechanics.

So looking doesn´t limit range of knowledge, but CREATES knowledge and reality at all. But this range of knowlege will be UNPRECISE, as stated by Heisenberg, and can only be statistical, not Newtonian.
 

paul.spiritualquest

Patron with Honors
I like this thread

I like this thread.

1. Speculating is fun.
2. The topic is interesting by itself.
3. Of course we step across the SEMANTICAL barrier of understanding, not in the sense of clearing words, but that everybody understands a different thing to the concept "Big Being", and that is interesting by itself, as everyone comes from a different paradigm. An agenda is when the intent is different to what is stated, and it is HIDDEN. A paradigm is a world view, a set of beliefs.

Sometimes on this board there are completely opposed paradigms, spiritualists against materialists, so the discussion there is kind of not worth, if it isn´t kept in a respectful level and with the willingness to understand where the other party is coming from, true listening.

The other clash is semantics. Every human being has a set of concepts, and understanding of concepts, depending on his education or no-education, experience, or whatever. This is related to the paradigm one is coming from. Normally we all have fractional paradigms, being a puzzle of the sources, and other viewpoint, and experiences.

Discrediting brings nothing, as it is only agression, the intent is to WIN the argument, to overwhelm, not to understand, it is completely WORTHLESS and a waste of time.

I suggest we try a bit more to understand the originary post, if we are not interested or against from a principled viewpoint, and not even willing to be affected by the other party, and share, EXCHANGE ideas, then why post?

Discussing philosophic ideas in this forum is completely ON-TOPIC, wether one considers that discussion to be futile or not. :yes: I believe first of all, respect should be granted. Being completely against a philosophic idea of another is completely ok, but one should be able to see it from the other´s person viewpoint, and the discussion should go along without intents to overwhelm, discredit, or to merely WIN. The idea of winning, is for me worthless, as realities there are so many, and generally none is more true than another. Getting exposed to another idea, letting it come in, and affecting oneself is much more interesting. If the original idea doesn´t even appeal in any way, then better, get onto something else. I only get into threads where I believe I have something to say, or something to contribute, otherwise I PASS.

My 2 cents regarding flaring. I suggest we stay on topic of the original post, and debate about it, but only with arguments, the WHAT´s and not the HOW things were stated.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I have always responded to whatever I feel like responding to, in whatever way I feel like responding, often taking detours from the topic along the way. That is nothing new for me. I pick and choose where to post, primarily by whim and current interest of the moment. :D

I understand that some ex-Scientologists might have a need or desire to talk about Scientology related ideas, as valid and meaningful in some way. I don't care much about that, either personally or regarding what others do. That is their right. And, it is my right to examine, critique and even invalidate those ideas in whatever way I so choose. This isn't an auditing session. :no:

Realize that a LARGE factor involved in the "mind fuck" involved with Scientology has to do with accepting and thinking with so many of Hubbard's many ideas. :duh: Since, that is true, and will probably always be true, don't expect, not anytime soon, for people to cease examining and blowing holes in those many ideas. :thumbsup:

People post here whatever they choose, apparently for a variety of reasons, and the interest of participating members alone determines where any thread goes to and evolves. :clap:

I also understand that some may feel a need to "control" the discussions in some way. But again, threads will largely go wherever the shared interest of posters takes them, all attempts at "control" to the contrary. :yes:

And, some of the best discussions were a result OF A DETOUR!
 

paul.spiritualquest

Patron with Honors
I have always responded to whatever I feel like responding to, in whatever way I feel like responding, often taking detours from the topic along the way. That is nothing new for me. I pick and choose where to post, primarily by whim and current interest of the moment. :D

I understand that some ex-Scientologists might have a need or desire to talk about Scientology related ideas, as valid and meaningful in some way. I don't care much about that, either personally or regarding what others do. That is their right. And, it is my right to examine, critique and even invalidate those ideas in whatever way I so choose. This isn't an auditing session. :no:

Realize that a LARGE factor involved in the "mind fuck" involved with Scientology has to do with accepting and thinking with so many of Hubbard's many ideas. :duh: Since, that is true, and will probably always be true, don't expect, not anytime soon, for people to cease examining and blowing holes in those many ideas. :thumbsup:

People post here whatever they choose, apparently for a variety of reasons, and the interest of participating members alone determines where any thread goes to and evolves. :clap:

I also understand that some may feel a need to "control" the discussions in some way. But again, threads will largely go wherever the shared interest of posters takes them, all attempts at "control" to the contrary. :yes:

I can see your point and agreely largely or completely with it. I never meant to control free communication. I only meant, that sometimes (i´m quite new here) things get completely de-toured into something else, and that other times, the discussion turns out more of an ego clash, than a subject clash. As you write what you want, I felt like saying, that I prefer to read those posts ON SUBJECT, with no harassment in them, than those which are a complete detour.

You said what you what and I did too. :eyeroll:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I can see your point and agreely largely or completely with it. I never meant to control free communication. I only meant, that sometimes (i´m quite new here) things get completely de-toured into something else, and that other times, the discussion turns out more of an ego clash, than a subject clash. As you write what you want, I felt like saying, that I prefer to read those posts ON SUBJECT, with no harassment in them, than those which are a complete detour.

You said what you what and I did too. :eyeroll:

And, I never said YOU did. My post wasn't actually "directed at" or a "response to" any specific person. But, it can be fun to throw something out, and see who takes the bait.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I like this thread.

1. Speculating is fun.
2. The topic is interesting by itself.
3. Of course we step across the SEMANTICAL barrier of understanding, not in the sense of clearing words, but that everybody understands a different thing to the concept "Big Being", and that is interesting by itself, as everyone comes from a different paradigm. An agenda is when the intent is different to what is stated, and it is HIDDEN. A paradigm is a world view, a set of beliefs.

Sometimes on this board there are completely opposed paradigms, spiritualists against materialists, so the discussion there is kind of not worth, if it isn´t kept in a respectful level and with the willingness to understand where the other party is coming from, true listening.

The other clash is semantics. Every human being has a set of concepts, and understanding of concepts, depending on his education or no-education, experience, or whatever. This is related to the paradigm one is coming from. Normally we all have fractional paradigms, being a puzzle of the sources, and other viewpoint, and experiences.

Discrediting brings nothing, as it is only agression, the intent is to WIN the argument, to overwhelm, not to understand, it is completely WORTHLESS and a waste of time.

I suggest we try a bit more to understand the originary post, if we are not interested or against from a principled viewpoint, and not even willing to be affected by the other party, and share, EXCHANGE ideas, then why post?

Discussing philosophic ideas in this forum is completely ON-TOPIC, wether one considers that discussion to be futile or not. :yes: I believe first of all, respect should be granted. Being completely against a philosophic idea of another is completely ok, but one should be able to see it from the other´s person viewpoint, and the discussion should go along without intents to overwhelm, discredit, or to merely WIN. The idea of winning, is for me worthless, as realities there are so many, and generally none is more true than another. Getting exposed to another idea, letting it come in, and affecting oneself is much more interesting. If the original idea doesn´t even appeal in any way, then better, get onto something else. I only get into threads where I believe I have something to say, or something to contribute, otherwise I PASS.

My 2 cents regarding flaring. I suggest we stay on topic of the original post, and debate about it, but only with arguments, the WHAT´s and not the HOW things were stated.

Agenda is not hidden, by definition. Thus "hidden agenda" as cliche.
An agenda is something one wishes to accomplish. One is more or less aware of agenda, in oneself and others. There's nothing wrong with having an agenda or even not knowing what that agenda is. But one of the treats of ESMB is they tend to get pointed out, whether one likes it or not.
 
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