Bill Frank's story about brainwashing (thread merge)

SirRalliart

Patron with Honors
Hidden in plain sight?

I suppose the data about O/W not being the only source of a blow has been hidden in plain sight. Just look at C/S Series 78, which is used to indoc people virtually every time someone is acting "out-list." LRH plainly states that wrong indication/wrong list item is a source of blows. Also, look at Int Rd Series 7 where LRH talks about Int being a reason for blows.

Unfortunately, the untrained and even trained "execs" foist off onto their sheep staff that O/W is the only reason for blows. What about the 5 main blow reasons(students) and the other 4 for auditing blows from whatever that HCOB was. How many times did we have to do that damn verbatim drill and chinese school on those?????

Even the HCOB on what lies behind O/W...the MU!

My point is that there have always been other "reasons" for a blow once you got past Tech Vol VI. How many times have we assessed a C/S 53 and "only" got Int and list charge and no O/W charge?? That's not to say that we were not later "forced" to "go get the bloody withhold."

I'd put down exact quotes but I left my Tech Vols in my office when I blew! Now that would be an overt from a FZ or Indie viewpoint.

Very interesting thread nonetheless!
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
I'd call it more of a confirmation than a revelation, if anyone reading this board hasn't figured out by now that Hubbard was nothing but a sleazy con man who was only interesting in enslaving victims to serve his cult, they are either in serious denial, or really fucking stupid, or both.

I'd love to see more people such as Bill Franks come out and tell their first hand accounts of Hubbard, but I'm not sure how many more people want to bother coming out to tell their Hubbard related cult stories, most people have moved on with their lives and probably aren't interested in reliving their youth on message boards, besides most people only want to reminisce about the good times, I doubt many Holocaust survivors want to rehash the years they spent in concentration camps all that often.

ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.
 

chuckbeatty

Patron with Honors
Who is Bill Franks? With no disrespect to the man intended,...

In the world OUTSIDE scientology, he is apparently "just another guy" with about the same amount of influence on those close around him (family, friends, business associates, and community connections) as the rest of us.

In the world INSIDE scientology and now INSIDE the "ex"scientology community, he's a guy with big, big altitude.

It's really lovely and helpful that Bill, an "opinion leader" in scientology who is now an "opinion leader" in EX-scientology, has come out with the big revelation that:

upsets (ARCx), not overts and withholds, are the reason people blow (leave).

Well strike me blind and dumb! Some of us who were never, and are still not, "opinion leaders" (in either or any other group) have been pointing that out for some time now, and have been pointing out how "confession" in scientology is used not to "help" but rather to control people ... but obviously our opinions just didn't carry enough weight because hardly anyone seemed to notice.

So. Thanks to this thread, we have all learned another great lesson! and that lesson is:

rather than thinking things out for themselves, many people will only believe something when it is spoken or written by people with "altitude," whose opinions they value more than their own.

All righty then.

Now tell me again, how was it that people got sucked into and lost so much in the scam called "scientology"?

Read my comments, I give a portion of Bill's impact on the movement.

Bill worked as a commanding officer in Class 4/5 orgs, that were making 20-50 Gs income weekly, he was an extremely viable commanding officier, he was Sea Org, his wife at that time of his being the CO of Class 4/5 orgs, was I think Jeannie (Danilovich maiden name, and John Danilovich's sister, John's an exec today at the Flag Service Org I believe still, her later married names were Hare, Franks, Bogvad, and today she's Sonnenfeld and she's the ED of Cinncy org), he and Jeannie were a very productive team at DC Org in the mid to late 1970s, he was brought to Flag, RPFed, then the RPF was all cancelled, he become CO Int Training Org, which was then at Flag (and Flag means Clearwater, this was the late 1970s before the management transition from the old Commodore's Staff Aides/Flag Bureaux setup to the new Watchdog Committee/CMO Int/Exec Strata setup), and Bill went from a couple very productive years (maybe all total a year and half at ITO) to being appointed the first Executive Director International, head of the original LRH ordered Exec Strata setup.

See my other posts on this thread.

Bills a huge productive executive in Sea Org history. He was the HAS (HCO Area Sec) at Boston Org back I think in 1974, when Bostom boomed, and Bill and three other Flag (Apollo Flag at that time) were set on the "do or die" COmmand Team Mission to take over and run Boston Org.

Tons of Boston people remember that time ("engram", glorious time, whatever it was pretty draconion, but they GOT booming income).

Bills part of an earlier generation of Sea Org officer execs.

Anyways, he was proposed for ED Int, and LRH approved it, period, end of argument about Bill Franks' production history in LRH's eyes!

There is so much history that only older timers who are burned out and have given up on this whole Sea Org Scientology saga feel is a joke and irredeemable, but I contend that only the senior ex leaders have the best hindsight suggestions of how to turn the current Scientology horrendous abusive scene around.

Scientology has a ton of wealth, it's NOT gonna just fall apart.

I encourage ex Scientology leaders to offer some constructive suggestions within existing policy options.

Bill as ED Int, were he on post, if he could conceive of that, the ED Int postition has every right to issue the complete unconditional, no holds barred, international amnesty, which for one would immediately eliminate the disconnection blackmail horror that Scientology still perpetrates.

ED Int could get his Int Execs to offer the policy solutions to the major problems. (Pricing;eliminate OSA;just go on down the list of ALL of the major criticisms of official Scientology and face and handle EACH major criticism)

LRH ain't arround to solve the movement's major controversies, and likely due to his own faults, he might neglect to handle those problems, just like LRH failed to face and handle those problems before he died.

Well the movement IS stuck holding the bag of all LRH's ingrained policy constraints, and it inevitably will have to be faced and reformed.

I hope Bill before he dies, offers some suggestions on things.
 

mysterysandwich

Patron with Honors
hear hear

well said:thumbsup:

ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't see any "altitude" from Bill Franks at all, I see him humble, and that is appreciated.

On FB, to the question by Robin Scott and Dennis Erlich if he was willing to take back the post of ED Int he wrote:
Also chosing the screen name of "wogman" is a sign of no altitude to me. (I see he has Bill Franks as screen name here, maybe Emma helped him and created the account with his name, but originally, he attemped to register as 'wogman')

About the message Bill wanted to be posted on ESMB, many (most) of people who left Co$ already knew that the equation blow=overt/withhold is bulshit. Different thing is to know that LRH himself knew it, yet he lied to keep ruling Scientology and people's lives.

Bill is thanked for his willigness to share his knowledge.

"Altitude" comes not from a person considering themself "above" you (any fool can make claims to such placement, and I don't see that Bill Franks did that) but rather from you considering yourself "below" that person.

My post was not a criticism of Bill Franks or of the information he relayed in his post. If that's what you thought, then you missed the point. Oh well.
 

chuckbeatty

Patron with Honors
I suppose the data about O/W not being the only source of a blow has been hidden in plain sight. Just look at C/S Series 78, which is used to indoc people virtually every time someone is acting "out-list." LRH plainly states that wrong indication/wrong list item is a source of blows. Also, look at Int Rd Series 7 where LRH talks about Int being a reason for blows.

Unfortunately, the untrained and even trained "execs" foist off onto their sheep staff that O/W is the only reason for blows. What about the 5 main blow reasons(students) and the other 4 for auditing blows from whatever that HCOB was. How many times did we have to do that damn verbatim drill and chinese school on those?????

Even the HCOB on what lies behind O/W...the MU!

My point is that there have always been other "reasons" for a blow once you got past Tech Vol VI. How many times have we assessed a C/S 53 and "only" got Int and list charge and no O/W charge?? That's not to say that we were not later "forced" to "go get the bloody withhold."

I'd put down exact quotes but I left my Tech Vols in my office when I blew! Now that would be an overt from a FZ or Indie viewpoint.

Very interesting thread nonetheless!

Exactly. I mentioned that Flag "case cracking" is simply expert assessment of the C/S 53 and another prepared correction list, I forget which. LRH ebbed and flowed on what he thought the "big" thing was, but overall, bypassed charge, however it was bypassed, upsets the preclear and worse.

I'm not a tech person, but I took this stuff seriously in my study of it, and I was on the TTC at Flag from 1975-1977 when I bombed out, then did tech again on the RPF from 1996-2002ish.

The "Book of Case Remedies" written by LRH in 1964 says ARCX, PTPs and Overts (the Ruds) stop pc's from winning, and they'll blow from lack of case wins (pages 21-27 which I mentioned on this thread).

The LIC has a lot predicaments causing upset.

The Sea Org upper ranks life, and today ANY echelon of the Sea Org and staff life, is particularly pressure cooker to cause inescapable damned if you do, damned if you don't, situations that are enforced Catch 22 ARC breaks.

And there's NO relief no matter which way you turn, within the predicaments, where you can't complain, and you have to fake cooperation with the environment, straight and simple cult atmosphere.

The movement environment generates this losing proposition Catch 22 atmosphere, and punishment and threat of disconnection, loss of all your accumulated Scientology case and production status, it is just NOT a good environment and the tech in that environment isn't of help.

I've noted the independents don't have the pressure that official Scientology has on its members, so the independents seem happier.

I'm no supporter of the tech nor Scientology, in any camp, but I wish the people on all sides less suffering from their predicaments and official Scientology has the lion's share of enforced predicaments and Catch 22s and abusive member to member inescapable behavior.
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
"Altitude" comes not from a person considering themself "above" you (any fool can make claims to such placement, and I don't see that Bill Franks did that) but rather from you considering yourself "below" that person.

My post was not a criticism of Bill Franks or of the information he relayed in his post. If that's what you thought, then you missed the point. Oh well.

Oh, okay, I misunderstood then. Thanks. :thumbsup:

I don't consider Bill Franks above or below myself or other members. I consider him valuable for the potential historical knowledge he can share about dark times of Scn history that I hadn't myself witnessed.
 
Scientology has a ton of wealth, it's NOT gonna just fall apart.
Scientology is already falling apart, it's is a relic of the Cold War. Today it's about as relevant as 8 Track Tapes. The only people outside of the cult interested in Scientology are those looking for a freak-show to entertain them.

The cult's supply of fresh meat has dried up, nobody under 50 years old is interested in Hubbard's obsolete 1950s pop psychology or fighting a war against Hubbard's imaginary enemies to stop a nuclear holocaust that was supposed to happen twenty years ago. The only thing the cult can do is focus on keeping an illusion of relevance to the few remaining members.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Very Well stated post!!!

ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.

Wow Anon Mary! I have read some very clever, humorous and inciteful comments from Chuck Norris on this thread, comments containing truths of a negative nature about Hubbard but I agree that calling people stupid for not knowing is a bit immature.

Your idea of encouraging those who have not seen to look is extemely well stated as are your comments about the internet's role in exposing the lies of Scientology and Hubbard.

If there are any truths in Scientology or from Hubbard, those would also be exposed on the internet but that is a subject for another post and/or another debate.
Lakey
 
ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.

Why would you think I'm trying to stop others from speaking out? My comment was directed to the people who are still pretending Hubbard was anything but a con man and Scientology is anything other than a con game. The point I'm making is it's no revelation that Hubbard was a soulless piece of shit.

It would be a revelation if someone was able to uncover a single act of Hubbard's that was not self-serving ... not that would be some Earth shattering news.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Who is Bill Franks? With no disrespect to the man intended,...

In the world OUTSIDE scientology, he is apparently "just another guy" with about the same amount of influence on those close around him (family, friends, business associates, and community connections) as the rest of us.

In the world INSIDE scientology and now INSIDE the "ex"scientology community, he's a guy with big, big altitude.

It's really lovely and helpful that Bill, an "opinion leader" in scientology who is now an "opinion leader" in EX-scientology, has come out with the big revelation that:

upsets (ARCx), not overts and withholds, are the reason people blow (leave).

Well strike me blind and dumb! Some of us who were never, and are still not, "opinion leaders" (in either or any other group) have been pointing that out for some time now, and have been pointing out how "confession" in scientology is used not to "help" but rather to control people ... but obviously our opinions just didn't carry enough weight because hardly anyone seemed to notice.

So. Thanks to this thread, we have all learned another great lesson! and that lesson is:

rather than thinking things out for themselves, many people will only believe something when it is spoken or written by people with "altitude," whose opinions they value more than their own.

All righty then.

Now tell me again, how was it that people got sucked into and lost so much in the scam called "scientology"?

The difference is that Bill posted that LRH admitted this in confidence and kept it a secret while he used the O/W tech to control. Did you already know that LRH did this?
 
Brainwashing

Bill, do you think Hubbard ever set out on an altruistic path simply to help people or was it always about himself and his agrandizement?

Dear synthia, I don't know but I am sure you and a lot of people remember his widespread statement in the 50's "That if anyone ever want to make a lot of money all that was needed to do was start a church." I am sure you remember this; it used to drive the GO crazy. The standard response for the press was doesn't have a greatsense of humor and I know for a fact that Ron has never benefitted a cent from is work. What a fool we all feel for that one and of course I am sure this sanctimonious principle is followed to the letter by those generous souls who have picked up the sacred torch.
wogman
 

chuckbeatty

Patron with Honors
Scientology is already falling apart, it's is a relic of the Cold War. Today it's about as relevant as 8 Track Tapes. The only people outside of the cult interested in Scientology are those looking for a freak-show to entertain them.

The cult's supply of fresh meat has dried up, nobody under 50 years old is interested in Hubbard's obsolete 1950s pop psychology or fighting a war against Hubbard's imaginary enemies to stop a nuclear holocaust that was supposed to happen twenty years ago. The only thing the cult can do is focus on keeping an illusion of relevance to the few remaining members.

They're already holding themselves together with their offspring, like any religious movement or communally organized group with as many rules that the members agree to, will eventually evolve into.

They've got a large percentage of their new Sea Org members from Scientologist offspring.

Were we to have detailed survey info on the Sea Org members, their histories, we'd see that MORE of the new Sea Org members are 2nd and 3rd generation Scientology offspring.

The problem is not recruiting from the outside world, it's recruiting from within the offspring of the existing Scientologists.

If one wanted to intercede in Sea Org recruitment, then getting the message to Scientologists' kids, would be the way to go to undermine future Sea Org recruitment.

How Scientologists shield their kids from the internet Scientology criticism, THAT is the drawn battleline. The internet is enemy territory to Scientologists, and getting the offspring to venture and read freely and widely about Scientology on the internet, is positive.
 
brainwashing

Mr Franks,

Why now? What made you decide to speak up about this?

I do welcome any info on how we were brainwashed. The info about O/W's is quite astounding for me. Little by little if we can take all those lies fed to us and replace with the truth can only help us.

I publish this now for the reason that some good friends, Gregg Wells, Dennis Erlich, Marsha Sorenson, and Peggy Daroesman encoursaged me to publish it, and 2) that there was a forum where it would be read. I should say that this is Not the first time I have tried to get the word out but for many reasons no one took notice. i am thankful that there is now such a good forum to receive this. wogman
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Why would you think I'm trying to stop others from speaking out? My comment was directed to the people who are still pretending Hubbard was anything but a con man and Scientology is anything other than a con game. The point I'm making is it's no revelation that Hubbard was a soulless piece of shit.

It would be a revelation if someone was able to uncover a single act of Hubbard's that was not self-serving ... not that would be some Earth shattering news.

Boy, did you misinterpret what I wrote.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Rog,

Yes, this is an amazing thread, IMO.

I agree with you that of more importance of what El Ron said re: ARCX’s vs Withhold’s is that he told David and Bill to keep their mouth's shut.

Of even more importance to me is the fact that he told them that oblivious to the fact that Hisself's dispatch would ARCX them big time…or maybe, at that point, Hisself just didn’t F’n care. :confused2:

Face:)
 
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brainwashing

Bill. I posted that believing that was your last word on the subject and while, unbeknownst to me, you later went on to help expose scientology in those legal cases. My bad. apologies

Mary

No sweat. I appreciate your interest in this profound deception. best, Bill
 
brainwashing

I agree, but I'll go ya one more basic:

People who are upset (ARCXen) with Scientology ALL have something in common:

THEY WERE PROMISED SOMETHING WHICH WAS NEVER DELIVERED.

I'll go even further and point out that:

THERE WAS NEVER NEVER ANY INTENTION TO DELIVER WHAT WAS PROMISED, AS IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO SO.

Why?

THE "TECH" OF MAKING HOMO SAPIENS INTO HOMO NOVIS IS A CALCULATED SCAM, WHICH CANNOT LIVE UP TO ITS HYPE.
IT IS, HOWEVER, EFFECTIVE AT MAKING WILLING SLAVES OF PEOPLE, WHICH WAS ALWAYS ITS GOAL, AS PER HUBBARD'S ADMISSIONS.


"What a lot of people don't realize is that Scientology is black magic that is just spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks. But in Scientology it's stretched out over a lifetime, and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology --and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works." Ron DeWolf, AKA L. Ron Hubbard Jr.

I have yet to see or hear of someone disproving what Nibs said.

So, Mr Franks, are you still intent on salvaging the parts of the "tech" that work?
If so, you will meet with unmitigated opposition.

Dear Ulf, I have no dog in this fight. You can do with this info as you wish. best, Bill Franks
 

Sindy

Crusader
Dear synthia, I don't know but I am sure you and a lot of people remember his widespread statement in the 50's "That if anyone ever want to make a lot of money all that was needed to do was start a church." I am sure you remember this; it used to drive the GO crazy. The standard response for the press was doesn't have a greatsense of humor and I know for a fact that Ron has never benefitted a cent from is work. What a fool we all feel for that one and of course I am sure this sanctimonious principle is followed to the letter by those generous souls who have picked up the sacred torch.
wogman


Why yes, I even recall that the GO line was to blame it on George Orwell :eyeroll: Thanks for your answer.
 
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