Book "L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman"

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
I got myself a copy of "L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman" and I am about half way through the book, unable to put it down :omg: :omg:

I am sure there are a lot of you on ESMB that have read this book but to those who have not read it. YOU HAVE TO READ THIS BOOK!!!!!

With my experience in scientology I have no reason to doubt anything in this book and so far believe every word in it. THANK GOD I AM OUT OF SCIENTOLOGY that is all I can say.
Ron was a manipulative SOB and the amount of deceit, criminal activities, human abuse, plotting and scamming is alarming.
How scientology has survived this long is something that puzzles me.
Any group that has this much connection to criminal activities and human abuse surely would have been banned.
Nothing in the actions of current management leads me to believe they are any different either.

I would love to hear anybody's opinion on this, anyone got any thoughts??

There is something I want to discuss on this board and I have thought about it a lot so would appreciate your opinions/advice on this.
Maybe its because scio still has some effect on me I don't know but I will just put my thoughts down for you as they come to mind.

How could anybody in their good mind after reading this book and in our experiences that have lead us to this forum allow their family members to be involved in such a cult. Then I think well everybody has a right to make their own choices in life and its their decision. But that's crap as they are not willing to look and more than that are not allowed to look so when you say hey guys you need to take a look at this they scream "Freedom of religion. Stop attacking my religion".

Should one respect their personal decision?

I see it more like watching a family member do cocaine and as he believes it does him no harm and is not willing to listen to anyone in regards to the harm it causes should you just leave him to his addiction and walk away knowing full well it will kill him, after all it's his decision? Okay fare enough we are not quiet talking about death here but you get the idea.

We all know the sh.t that would hit the fan if I actually kicked up a storm about their involvement in scio and went out of my way to show them the other side. Possible ending up in disconnection.

But is that not better than staying quiet?

Who knows maybe years down the line they will look back and say hey he was right he was just looking out for us.

Or maybe their lives derail and I sat back knowing scio was no good but did nothing. To me that would be worse.

Ones own kids, parents and sisters could be lost to you possible forever if they remain with scio.

I feel if I do not confront them on this that scio is winning and still has some control over me. Surely a good father or family member would protect all in his family from deceit and manipulation from others.

I will leave it at that as I think you all get the idea as to what I am trying to say and I would love some feedback or personal experiences any of you have had with this.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I got myself a copy of "L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman" and I am about half way through the book, unable to put it down :omg: :omg:

I am sure there are a lot of you on ESMB that have read this book but to those who have not read it. YOU HAVE TO READ THIS BOOK!!!!!

With my experience in scientology I have no reason to doubt anything in this book and so far believe every word in it. THANK GOD I AM OUT OF SCIENTOLOGY that is all I can say.
Ron was a manipulative SOB and the amount of deceit, criminal activities, human abuse, plotting and scamming is alarming.
How scientology has survived this long is something that puzzles me.
Any group that has this much connection to criminal activities and human abuse surely would have been banned.
Nothing in the actions of current management leads me to believe they are any different either.

I would love to hear anybody's opinion on this, anyone got any thoughts??

There is something I want to discuss on this board and I have thought about it a lot so would appreciate your opinions/advice on this.
Maybe its because scio still has some effect on me I don't know but I will just put my thoughts down for you as they come to mind.

How could anybody in their good mind after reading this book and in our experiences that have lead us to this forum allow their family members to be involved in such a cult. Then I think well everybody has a right to make their own choices in life and its their decision. But that's crap as they are not willing to look and more than that are not allowed to look so when you say hey guys you need to take a look at this they scream "Freedom of religion. Stop attacking my religion".

Should one respect their personal decision?

I see it more like watching a family member do cocaine and as he believes it does him no harm and is not willing to listen to anyone in regards to the harm it causes should you just leave him to his addiction and walk away knowing full well it will kill him, after all it's his decision? Okay fare enough we are not quiet talking about death here but you get the idea.

We all know the sh.t that would hit the fan if I actually kicked up a storm about their involvement in scio and went out of my way to show them the other side. Possible ending up in disconnection.

But is that not better than staying quiet?

Who knows maybe years down the line they will look back and say hey he was right he was just looking out for us.

Or maybe their lives derail and I sat back knowing scio was no good but did nothing. To me that would be worse.

Ones own kids, parents and sisters could be lost to you possible forever if they remain with scio.

I feel if I do not confront them on this that scio is winning and still has some control over me. Surely a good father or family member would protect all in his family from deceit and manipulation from others.

I will leave it at that as I think you all get the idea as to what I am trying to say and I would love some feedback or personal experiences any of you have had with this.

For those who haven't seen it, here's the statement by author Bent Corydon at the end of the 'Preface' of the 2nd and 3rd editions:

"As of the Spring of 1991, I have been a regular target for Scientology harassment - both 'legal' and otherwise - for over a decade. I have been sued six times. I have counter sued twice.

"I have had to struggle within a court system which does not recognize as meaningful the long-standing Scientology policy of using frivolous lawsuits for purposes of harassment.

"It's been very hard work. Yet I've been amazingly successful - or lucky. There are good judges, and even some honest lawyers. Unfortunately, over-all, the 'legal system' works in favor of the rich: competent lawyers are expensive. And the system of near endless 'appeals' often can bring the average person to his knees financially - and sometimes emotionally.

"I've watched many fall by the wayside. Silenced in various ways: by threats, harassment of family members, litigation induced financial problems, stress related illnesses, and - perhaps most insidiously - so called legal settlements arrived at under these and other conditions of duress.

"In light of all this, it occurred to me that there is no absolute guarantee that I will always be able to withstand the Machiavellian machinations of this big sticky trap called the Church of Scientology. I have a family to support. It is feasible that I may collapse financially before the legal process is complete, and also feasible that I may have to settle on less than ideal terms.

"With this in mind, I wish to state that no matter what my fate may be, that one thing is absolutely true: I wholeheartedly support all of those who are working to make known the many hidden facts about this amoral and exploitative organization, and expose the truth about its founder, L. Ron Hubbard.

"I unequivocally stand by the contents of 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'. This book has helped many to think through, and sort out, their disturbing experiences with Scientology. It has also helped to 'inoculate' those who might otherwise be vulnerable to the 'dark side' of Scientology.

"I look forward to seeing a second edition.

"- Bent Corydon, 1991"

Two threads from ESMB on 'Messiah or Madman?':

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=275&highlight=messiah+madman
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
I have read this book, several times, and whilst much of the content is exact, at least from my own experiences from being on the Royal Scotsman/Apollo, there are some errors.

After 1967, the hub around which all Scientology revolved was the
flagship Apollo, an immaculately scrubbed white ship cruising majes-
tically through the blue waters of the Mediterranean Sea. Here lived
and worked the elite of Scientology in what was billed as the sanest
and safest space on earth.


The ship most certainly was immaculately scrubbed but it was NOT white, it was black, at least from the time period I was there. 1967 - middle of 1969.

Here also worked L. Ron Hubbard, in a plush oak-panelled office.
He was in touch with all Scientology activities around the world by
a modern telex system that rivalled those of major corporations. Of
the 300 to 400 crew members, some 20 worked long hours just
manning the telexes and other communications systems between
Hubbard and his world-wide organizations.


Ron did work in a plush office, whilst his crew lived and worked in appalling conditions. It is possible that other people manned the telex office, however the only person I remember manning the telexes was Alan Vos. The telex office was tiny, and located on one of the upper decks. On several occasions I was sent off to go do something else, so I was not privy to communications that Hubbard deemed secret and confidential when he was in communication with the telex officer. I remember Alan especially as he was the one who deemed me not worthy of rejoining the group when I was in a condition of Liability.

Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the
chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-
ness by shoving her down there!
This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week
because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me
and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on." I
had just come back from a world tour promoting Scientology.
And I said, "What is it" And she told me about this little girl. Her


26 THE ADVENTURES OF THE COMMODORE

parents were from London. Her father and mother had separated, and
the mother had brought three or four of her children onto the ship.
I went down there and released her out of it. I pulled out the door
pegs that were put down to make sure this poor little thing couldn't get
out.
Then I went to Hubbard and said, "What the hell are you doing?"
And he said, "John, what the hell are you talking about?"
And I said, "What are you really doing!" I was screaming at him.
And he said, "Oh God, release her. I didn't know she was in there "

Shortly thereafter, McMaster was made a galley hand and sub-
jected to extreme physical labor, lack of sleep, and other hardships.
"Hubbard wanted to break me," he said.
After he resigned from the Church of Scientology in late 1969, he
was officially "declared" a "suppressive person" or "S.P." (evil psy-
chotic) by Hubbard.


This most definitely would have been the little girl I saw in the chain locker,she was not taken out straight away. There was a "FLAP", What to do, what to do?I do not know the exact details of what was said and what went on, but I know she was not lifted out straight away which to my mind would have been the obvious thing to do.

What I think happened - Without express orders from the Commadore, no one dared lift her out, in case they were subjected to the same fate.John and the MAA may have done their best under the circumstances, but unfortunately it wasn't good enough, where a little tiny child was concerned.L. Ron Hubbard knew most things that went on, on that ship and punishments were always on his direct order. He knew she was in the chain locker, just like he knew two of his messengers were in the hold, just like he knew when he gave me permission to join my Father, that my Father was no longer in the Sea Org. He knew all these things, because he gave the orders, and the brainwashed, faithful carried his orders out.

It doesn't surprise me that John McMasters was declared in 1969,I heard him try to warn people, but no one was listening.LRH didn't just try to break John Mc, he tried to break everyone, whether adults or young children and in many cases he succeeded.

Hows that for a success story?
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well done Sharone! Keep telling your story. :thumbsup:

"Messiah or Madman?" is a great book!

I'm glad it has been discussed again on here, so many newbies probably have no idea about it or the truth about LRH that it reveals.

Maybe this is also a good place to also mention Russell Millar's "Bare Faced Messiah"

When you see Hubbard's "Admissions" and then read about what he did in Scn, it becomes quite plain that he was a Black Magician. Simple as that!

Scientology is a sugar-coated Black Magic school where the intiates don't even realise that it is black magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwmsBLvcr4
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
"Messiah Or Madman ?" + Other Comments

I.A., yes that is a damn good book and it is well documented or witnessed.

If one were to read only one book on Scientology this IS THE ONE.

This must be the 4th time I've recommended it here.


After wasting many years and about $200K, all I can say is I wish I'd read it

when it first came out. It would have saved me a lot of grief and insanity that

I bought into emotionally, mentally and spiritually.


I didn't investigate Hubbard until I decided I just had to know how in the hell

SP DM took over. Well I found the answers complete which few can confront

out there.

I.A., I don't have the total answer for you, but a good part of it is found in

degradation of the society as a whole and the fall of people down the Tone

Scale. The constant day-to-day abuse of S.O. members is like a police state

which we are really in now at social tones of 1.1-1.4 often.

Notice that the Scio group has easily bought off the law in Los Angeles and

the cops are on their side. Same Tone Levels so they like each other.


Currently I've pulled it in again with an "auditor" outside the "Church" who has

failed to deliver any auditing for $20K+. The why is he is in LRH's

valence, where it is OK to ripoff a person's sanity by default, and of course

using the wonderful aesthetic of LRH's self-opinion of:

"I can do no wrong regardless of what I do or don't do and therefore I am

always right." :omg: :omg: :omg:

I used to dismiss his earlier postulates of the "Admissions" as pre-Scientology

and therefore he must have changed them for the better later, but actually it

looks like they stuck, judging purely from his behavior later.

Where did this end him up: Failed case.
Psychotic ultimately
Very sick physically

I've seen the initial stages of all three with my failed "auditor" "friend".


I really don't think the insane abuses of the "Church" will ever stop until they

run out of money. That will most likely take the courts to do it.

It will never happen with impotent inputs of Anonymous who target even the

good formerly workable Tech of Scientology, not just the CO$.
 

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
Thanks Blue Spirit.
I appreciate the great feed back.
Yea I must say reading this book kind of got me fired up again but I am calming down know. Its more a calmness of knowing I have done the right thing and my decision to get out is even more justified.
Time will tell if scio continues to lie and deceive, but karma is karma and one day it will bite.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I've read many critical books. I'm glad to be out of CofS but I'm also glad I didn't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I didn't investigate Hubbard until I decided I just had to know how in the hell

SP DM took over. Well I found the answers complete which few can confront

out there.

Hey Blue Spirit,

I've been wondering for years how DM took over.
If I were to hear the answers would I contract pneumonia or die instantly?

:omg:
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Me Too

I've read many critical books. I'm glad to be out of CofS but I'm also glad I didn't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

I agree, and am still trying to get help in the Freezone, but chose someone
who takes money readily, but delivers no VFP in return, just lots of un-needed,
wasteful, invalidative, holding actions to pretend to be doing something while the case OCA falls downward, not upward as with actual true auditing.
Is that "Reverse Auditing" ?
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I've read many critical books. I'm glad to be out of CofS but I'm also glad I didn't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah, stick with that "tech" -- one day you too can be one of the most able beings, maybe you'll be a big OT being like Marty Rathbun.
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
NOT ALL BAD

Thanks Blue Spirit.
I appreciate the great feed back.
Yea I must say reading this book kind of got me fired up again but I am calming down know. Its more a calmness of knowing I have done the right thing and my decision to get out is even more justified.
Time will tell if scio continues to lie and deceive, but karma is karma and one day it will bite.

You should know that there have been times (short-lived) and places where

Scientology was done with success and happy customers. The SP's of course

always destroyed these as quickly as possible, so one had to work hard and

fast and be lucky as to birth date (sadly), so many younger people never

really had a chance. Nevertheless today there are a few places where a

co-audit could still be done outside the Church successfully. One may have to

leave their hometown for training.


As Voltaire's Child says don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Also, although I know little of it yet, the early indicators from Knowledgism

show that the "flys-in-the-ointment" of Scientology have been fixed there.

Alan, RogerB, and Dart Smohen are your sources there.

Call them up and order a few books for starters. The training is in Dallas country. Call Bryan at 940-995-2054.


I.A., I do know the upsets that can occur in this game, as I've clearly had

more than my deserved share, the very worst occurring as we speak.

Betrayal for money has been a popular theme in Scientology.

I often think if the motivation was higher the group would have had about

20 times more money by now and millions of happy customers. So true.

Additionally thousands would be making a good living at it instead of a

handful.
 

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
Now I don't mean to offend anybody here but I find it very hard to give any validity to the tech.
Especially having gone to OTV myself.
I can not argue about the old days and if it was different, and sure there are a lot of "SPs" around but Ron's actions many many of them fall into "SP" type actions in my opinion.
I kind of see it like this. If Hitler showed some compassion in his life to someone, maybe he helped a few people out. Does that make him a good man and worthy of follow?
I don't think so. In the beginning many had not gotten to the end of the Bridge. So the mystery of what it holds was massive but today many have reached as far as they can go and have turned and looked back and gotten off the Bridge unhappy with the end result.
I can not see how the tech outside of the Churches would achieve more.
Ron himself with his bad health, heart attacks, strokes, anger, impatience,cruelty shows nothing in his actions and that follow what he dictates in his scientology teachings.
It's like someone standing up and saying I am a Professor at Law and when everyone finds out he really was not and actually did not finish school they still believe in his writings on Law and continue to teach it its crazy.
Sorry Free Zoners buts thats how I see it guys.
 

Stephanie

Patron with Honors
i read it when i first started, and i've always had that in the back of mymind, he's a liar so is the cos, but some of it helped me.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Yeah, stick with that "tech" -- one day you too can be one of the most able beings, maybe you'll be a big OT being like Marty Rathbun.


Seems kind of unnecessarily ad hom, Olska.

I'm interested in Scn tech and I'm interested in other religions and methods, too. I've only said so about a hundred times.

I'm not trying to be like anyone other than myself.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Now I don't mean to offend anybody here but I find it very hard to give any validity to the tech.
Especially having gone to OTV myself.
I can not argue about the old days and if it was different, and sure there are a lot of "SPs" around but Ron's actions many many of them fall into "SP" type actions in my opinion.
I kind of see it like this. If Hitler showed some compassion in his life to someone, maybe he helped a few people out. Does that make him a good man and worthy of follow?
I don't think so. In the beginning many had not gotten to the end of the Bridge. So the mystery of what it holds was massive but today many have reached as far as they can go and have turned and looked back and gotten off the Bridge unhappy with the end result.
I can not see how the tech outside of the Churches would achieve more.
Ron himself with his bad health, heart attacks, strokes, anger, impatience,cruelty shows nothing in his actions and that follow what he dictates in his scientology teachings.
It's like someone standing up and saying I am a Professor at Law and when everyone finds out he really was not and actually did not finish school they still believe in his writings on Law and continue to teach it its crazy.
Sorry Free Zoners buts thats how I see it guys.

Don't worry about it. The people on this board who get offended re the tech are (only some of) the ones who don't approve of it and get upset when someone says they like it. No non CofS Scn'ist is going to be upset over someone saying they don't want any part of it.

As far as the rest of what you've said, well, I go by ideas. If an idea or method works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I've found a number of Hubbard's theories to not work out at all. I've found many that did. That's all there is to it.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
[...]

Currently I've pulled it in again with an "auditor" outside the "Church" who has failed to deliver any auditing for $20K+.

[...]


This business about the money is a manifestation of the scientology sickness.

Many people think they have "money on account" when in fact they just have numbers on account. The money is GONE. Even so, the church has a tough time keeping track of the numbers assigned to your account.

This is one reason repayments and refunds take so long. The routing form serves to stall the process giving the org time to get the funds from this week's GI.

I think the slipshod accounting of a person's funds drives many people crazy; I know it did me.

As an auditor I have solved this problem for myself and the people I work with: If someone arrives for, say, a weekend of auditing, they pay nothing until the weekend is over. At that time I tally the hours used and the debt is settled then and there. There is no "money on account." There is nothing owed. If the auditing is unsatisfactory, nothing is owed. Accounting problem solved. No one walks away with bypassed charge. Potential PR problem solved.

Administering training and processing isn't the rocket science Hubbard would have had us believe.
 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great book

Good post, IM. Glad you are enjoying the book. :)

M or M was the first "truth" book I read after leaving the SO and it helped me tremendously unwinding the scio wrapper I so completely enveloped myself in. I was only in the SO for a short time but saw the tip of an iceberg that scared the crap out of me. The book described the rest of the iceberg I knew was there but could not directly see.

I used what I learned in the book to teach my daughter about cults and how to spot them. She is in her twenties now and is pretty much cult-proof. :happydance:
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Good System

This business about the money is a manifestation of the scientology sickness.

Many people think they have "money on account" when in fact they just have numbers on account. The money is GONE. Even so, the church has a tough time keeping track of the numbers assigned to your account.

This is one reason repayments and refunds take so long. The routing form serves to stall the process giving the org time to get the funds from this week's GI.

I think the slipshod accounting of a person's funds drives many people crazy; I know it did me.

As an auditor I have solved this problem for myself and the people I work with: If someone arrives for, say, a weekend of auditing, they pay nothing until the weekend is over. At that time I tally the hours used and the debt is settled then and there. There is no "money on account." There is nothing owed. If the auditing is unsatisfactory, nothing is owed. Accounting problem solved. No one walks away with bypassed charge. Potential PR problem solved.
Administering training and processing isn't the rocket science Hubbard would have had us believe.

I fully agree with what you say and that is totally common sense.

I went to another FZ auditor recently and that is how I paid, cash out of the

wallet. I sure wish I'd done that in the "Church", of course the prices are so

insanely out-reality, out-exchange high that one tends to fall for the sliding

scale bullshit. :angry: :angry: :angry:


After the $21K crap and NO auditing, he thought he'd try it again with a

sliding scale discount game ranging from $43K to over $100K PAID IN

ADVANCE !! :grouch:

Well, I didn't bite this time, but including Flag and that fucking ASHO Day,

(being run by an implanted psycho) I've been a 3-time loser.

So this "auditor" is now manifesting Missed Withholds Bigtime, including bodily

threats. Wouldn't you know it but he has many tech friends in high FZ places

who will most likely back him up ! :grouch: :angry: :omg:

Anyway eventually I might get him to come to his senses, although I AM UP

AGAINST LRH's VALENCE HERE. I don't say that lightly or in a way that is just

to make him wrong, BUT I've really seen this valence by observation,

cognition and knowledge of LRH (very disappointing to discover). So he (the

now rejected auditor) can't look at anything LRH did that was bad; nothing.

The new auditor can and has. Much more sanity there.


In conclusion, TED, you are spot on about the Scientology Money Sickness.:grouch:

I've personally witnessed many chased away by this very aberrated insanity.
Hundreds and many with good money.
The Thursday at 2:00 crap was always totally bonkers.

Once ASHO even found my wife in a private school where she was substitute
teaching and dragged her back to the org for an attempted BC completion at
noon when she had not a prayer to finish and had been on the fucking course
for many years, so what would a week's difference make. Fucking Nuts ! :angry:
I was going to write it up as a violation of the Policy on maintaining friendly relations with the environment, but when I got to ASHO they had her in Ethics about the whole. I had a hard time got raising total verbal hell on the
spot, it made me SO fucking mad. :angry:

Sadly these SO bastards are SO FUCKING DELUDED about "Clearing the

planet". They just might consider clearing themselves first !!!!!!!! :grouch: :angry:


Also I'd like to say that if DOF or someone can show me how to do it most

A-to-B like I'd like to put on this site a photo copy of the two pieces of paper

showing the insane old charges and attempted new charges of $43K and up.

I guarantee it will set a record for the FZ.

But then of course this guy considers himself THE "Keeper Of The Tech"
for Earth. :whistling:
(maybe so for the OT levels, but doesn't do well by my experience on
the lower levels; doesn't even understand Objectives !!! That is true.
 
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