Book "L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman"

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Not Offended

Now I don't mean to offend anybody here but I find it very hard to give any validity to the tech.
Especially having gone to OTV myself.
I can not argue about the old days and if it was different, and sure there are a lot of "SPs" around but Ron's actions many many of them fall into "SP" type actions in my opinion.
I kind of see it like this. If Hitler showed some compassion in his life to someone, maybe he helped a few people out. Does that make him a good man and worthy of follow?
I don't think so. In the beginning many had not gotten to the end of the Bridge. So the mystery of what it holds was massive but today many have reached as far as they can go and have turned and looked back and gotten off the Bridge unhappy with the end result.
I can not see how the tech outside of the Churches would achieve more.
Ron himself with his bad health, heart attacks, strokes, anger, impatience,cruelty shows nothing in his actions and that follow what he dictates in his scientology teachings.
It's like someone standing up and saying I am a Professor at Law and when everyone finds out he really was not and actually did not finish school they still believe in his writings on Law and continue to teach it its crazy.
Sorry Free Zoners buts thats how I see it guys.

I.A., I'm not offended and in fact believe you call them like you see them, just

as I do. Also you've gone further in less time than myself.

Audited NOTS was not fucked up by DM until the early nineties I have from a

good source. There are FZ people that know how to fix these things, and I

either know them, or can easily track them down.

Of course one might reasonably think I have no credentials here, BUT I've

seen fabulous wins in some early enough, but not too early.


Additionally one might consider the Original OT levels 4-8 that many have had

Real OT wins from, available to read if you can find the early "Advance" mag

issues.

I'll just throw it all out here, everything else:

The "L" Rundowns done with certain guys in the FZ.

Knowledgism is also available which patched many of the holes in Hubbard's

work. The best terminal their to comm to is RogerB of this board.

I can certainly recommend his long post "On The Subject of Knowledgism">

It is excellent and a VERY interesting read.


So, I.A., I like your posts, which show some intelligence and goodness, but

even if upset, throwing out the "baby with the bath water" might not be the

best policy.

One needs to keep in mind that DM started his Sabotage of the whole Bridge

from the bottom to the top in 1982 and as we have let this Super SP have

free reign for this long, well you get the idea.

Hubbard didn't write the whole Bridge, so there are gems of workable tech out

there. My best advice would be to find an old timer who really KNOWS the

true workable Tech pieces and sit down and talk with them, even if you have

to go afar to do it.

RogerB and some of these Old timers will be at the FZ Convention in Pasadena

California this weekend and it would be well worth while to get a ticket and

get there. I saw some of these guys in May at the FZ party in L.A. and it was

very valuable.


On the other hand I.A., if you wanted to just chuck the whole thing I get it.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Blue Spirit, I can sense the BPC! Yikes!

[...]


In conclusion, TED, you are spot on about the Scientology Money Sickness.:grouch:

I've personally witnessed many chased away by this very aberrated insanity.
Hundreds and many with good money.
The Thursday at 2:00 crap was always totally bonkers.

Once ASHO even found my wife in a private school where she was substitute
teaching and dragged her back to the org for an attempted BC completion at
noon when she had not a prayer to finish and had been on the fucking course
for many years, so what would a week's difference make. Fucking Nuts ! :angry:
I was going to write it up as a violation of the Policy on maintaining friendly relations with the environment, but when I got to ASHO they had her in Ethics about the whole. I had a hard time got raising total verbal hell on the
spot, it made me SO fucking mad. :angry:

Sadly these SO bastards are SO FUCKING DELUDED about "Clearing the

planet". They just might consider clearing themselves first !!!!!!!! :grouch: :angry:


[...]


The Thursday at 2:00 stat push is another severely aberrated area of scientology. Besides the unnecessary upsets it creates with staff and clientele, as noted above, the push to bring home every completion NOW, robs the future of its production setup. Every week is like starting from scratch Non-E.

From the very first time I heard of sliding scales I felt it was bullshit. If the value of auditing is $x, then it is $x, not $x minus on a sliding scale. $50 per hour, fine. $100 per hour, fine. $2.00 an hour, fine. Work out what it costs to promote and deliver. Charge that! Good grief!

Now factor in the "Rebate" for completing a service? This came about at a time when Lee Iacocca was managing Chrysler. They were giving rebates to boost sales of their cars. When I heard that this was an idea LRH had ordered implemented I thought he had gone totally f'ing nuts. :omg:

Finally, I, too, always thought that if an org couldn't clear itself it did not have a snowball's chance in hell of clearing its own city or, much less, an entire planet. That was just a simple observation and thought that seemed logical to me.

Which brings me to "Clearing the Planet..." :roflmao:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I fully agree with what you say and that is totally common sense.

I went to another FZ auditor recently and that is how I paid, cash out of the

wallet. I sure wish I'd done that in the "Church", of course the prices are so

insanely out-reality, out-exchange high that one tends to fall for the sliding

scale bullshit. :angry: :angry: :angry:


After the $21K crap and NO auditing, he thought he'd try it again with a

sliding scale discount game ranging from $43K to over $100K PAID IN

ADVANCE !! :grouch:

Well, I didn't bite this time, but including Flag and that fucking ASHO Day,

(being run by an implanted psycho) I've been a 3-time loser.

So this "auditor" is now manifesting Missed Withholds Bigtime, including bodily

threats. Wouldn't you know it but he has many tech friends in high FZ places

who will most likely back him up ! :grouch: :angry: :omg:

Anyway eventually I might get him to come to his senses, although I AM UP

AGAINST LRH's VALENCE HERE. I don't say that lightly or in a way that is just

to make him wrong, BUT I've really seen this valence by observation,

cognition and knowledge of LRH (very disappointing to discover). So he (the

now rejected auditor) can't look at anything LRH did that was bad; nothing.

The new auditor can and has. Much more sanity there.


In conclusion, TED, you are spot on about the Scientology Money Sickness.:grouch:

I've personally witnessed many chased away by this very aberrated insanity.
Hundreds and many with good money.
The Thursday at 2:00 crap was always totally bonkers.

Once ASHO even found my wife in a private school where she was substitute
teaching and dragged her back to the org for an attempted BC completion at
noon when she had not a prayer to finish and had been on the fucking course
for many years, so what would a week's difference make. Fucking Nuts ! :angry:
I was going to write it up as a violation of the Policy on maintaining friendly relations with the environment, but when I got to ASHO they had her in Ethics about the whole. I had a hard time got raising total verbal hell on the
spot, it made me SO fucking mad. :angry:

Sadly these SO bastards are SO FUCKING DELUDED about "Clearing the

planet". They just might consider clearing themselves first !!!!!!!! :grouch: :angry:


Also I'd like to say that if DOF or someone can show me how to do it most

A-to-B like I'd like to put on this site a photo copy of the two pieces of paper

showing the insane old charges and attempted new charges of $43K and up.

I guarantee it will set a record for the FZ.

But then of course this guy considers himself THE "Keeper Of The Tech"
for Earth. :whistling:
(maybe so for the OT levels, but doesn't do well by my experience on
the lower levels; doesn't even understand Objectives !!! That is true.

Hey Spirit,
I was just reading an article on Marty Rathbun's blog, his article on "Community" where he is really encouraging people to get auditing in the Free Zone. Being that he was at one time the "Inspector General, Ethics" I would suggest emailing him and maybe he would have suggestions on how to best handle the situation you have with this guy.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/09/30/community/

Larryhttp://markrathbun.wordpress.com/
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
"Source, Jr."

Hey Spirit,
I was just reading an article on Marty Rathbun's blog, his article on "Community" where he is really encouraging people to get auditing in the Free Zone. Being that he was at one time the "Inspector General, Ethics" I would suggest emailing him and maybe he would have suggestions on how to best handle the situation you have with this guy.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/09/30/community/
Larryhttp://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

A reasonable suggestion, but this guy considers himself a law onto himself as

in "Source Jr.", LRH's valence of "I can do no wrong, so I can do as I please."

He has put down 4 auditors in the Freezone, 3 with good reputations. That is

called a make wrong to make yourself right (Service Fac).

Wait until I post his charges and intended charges. ($238/hour for games that

didn't include ONE ACTUAL PROCESS !! :duh: :grouch: :angry:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
A reasonable suggestion, but this guy considers himself a law onto himself as

in "Source Jr.", LRH's valence of "I can do no wrong, so I can do as I please."

He has put down 4 auditors in the Freezone, 3 with good reputations. That is

called a make wrong to make yourself right (Service Fac).

Wait until I post his charges and intended charges. ($238/hour for games that

didn't include ONE ACTUAL PROCESS !! :duh: :grouch: :angry:

I just felt with his background he could have been an important ally in handling these types of situations. I had not been aware of all that stuff you indicated with regards to Marty or wouldn't of suggested it. Somehow though, anyone delivering auditing out in the field has to be made accountable, as this guy who did you this way can also (and will) do others, until he's stopped.
 

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman

Well I finished the book.

What a great read.:thumbsup: :clap:

Want the other side to Scientology, Dianetics and LRH then pick up this book and enjoy the journey.

This book answered a lot of questions I had.:thumbsup:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Illegal Alien,

I liked Bent's book. (He was the E.D. of the Riverside Mission.)
IMO, that book is not like the other critic books. It was personal for me.

BTW, after the Comm Course and Life Repair, I joined staff. Rene, my M1 auditor, told me that Bent wanted me on staff. The rest is history.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
I have read this book, several times, and whilst much of the content is exact, at least from my own experiences from being on the Royal Scotsman/Apollo, there are some errors.

After 1967, the hub around which all Scientology revolved was the
flagship Apollo, an immaculately scrubbed white ship cruising majes-
tically through the blue waters of the Mediterranean Sea. Here lived
and worked the elite of Scientology in what was billed as the sanest
and safest space on earth.


The ship most certainly was immaculately scrubbed but it was NOT white, it was black, at least from the time period I was there. 1967 - middle of 1969.<snip>
Apollo, (The Flying Scotman) was apparently painted white in 1969 or '70.
apollo.jpg

gerryarmstrong.org : Anchors, Chains, Chain Lockers and Lock Ups

There's a story on the net somewhere about the painting.. (I failed to locate it just now).. The scilon crew painted the ship of course. And Hubbard had one of his screaming conniption fits about grit or dust in the painted surface. Apparently he demanded the paintjob to look like his spraypainted new car. Hard to do with a brush with dust blowing in the air.

:yes:
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
After 1967, the hub around which all Scientology revolved was the
flagship Apollo, an immaculately scrubbed white ship cruising majes-
tically through the blue waters of the Mediterranean Sea. Here lived
and worked the elite of Scientology in what was billed as the sanest
and safest space on earth.


Not nit picking, but if I read "after 1967 that the ship was white, but happen to know that the ship was black at least until June/ early July 1969, then I take that to be not absolutely accurate.

As with anything that happened a long time ago, there are bound to be some indiscrepancies, some things that are not as clear as others.

Three years ago, I went to Pontifract in Yorkshire.The last time I had been there, I was 5 years old.Not only did I find the shop, my Dad had been Manager of, pre Scientology, but i also spotted the house we had lived at, whilst driving past.I had no address or anything. I amazed myself and my cousin as I was spot on with both locations.

Not sure if like is the right word, but I wouldn't mind going back on the Apollo, it may just lay some ghosts to rest for me, either that or stir up a whole load more of memories.

Thank you SchwimmelPuckel for putting that there, and now to the chain locker.
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
After 1967, the hub around which all Scientology revolved was the
flagship Apollo, an immaculately scrubbed white ship cruising majes-
tically through the blue waters of the Mediterranean Sea. Here lived
and worked the elite of Scientology in what was billed as the sanest
and safest space on earth.


Not nit picking, but if I read "after 1967 that the ship was white, but happen to know that the ship was black at least until June/ early July 1969, then I take that to be not absolutely accurate.

As with anything that happened a long time ago, there are bound to be some indiscrepancies, some things that are not as clear as others.

Three years ago, I went to Pontifract in Yorkshire.The last time I had been there, I was 5 years old.Not only did I find the shop, my Dad had been Manager of, pre Scientology, but i also spotted the house we had lived at, whilst driving past.I had no address or anything. I amazed myself and my cousin as I was spot on with both locations.

Not sure if like is the right word, but I wouldn't mind going back on the Apollo, it may just lay some ghosts to rest for me, either that or stir up a whole load more of memories.

Thank you SchwimmelPuckel for putting that there, and now to the chain locker.


Back on the Apollo?? Lord have mercy! Christ have mercy! Lord have mercy!
To have cockroaches crawling all over me is a thing that I would not care to repeat. In 1971 the Apollo was white. It was a filthy hellhole. There wasn't an inch of the parts of it that I saw that wasn't home to billions of cockroaches, other than LRH's personal space of course.
The young CMO girls had filthy mouths. I thought that I had heard it all but when I heard those children talk about each other, and about the boys that they knew, I was appalled by their language.
They stole clothing from me, especially panties were in demand by the little girls. There was no way to secure your stuff.
Diana would throw her unwanted clothing down on the floor of the 'aft lounge' for the CMO girls to pick thru and fight over.
I saw people being thrown over the side of the ship into the slimy waters off Tangiers port. A lady that I knew was abandoned on the Island of Madeira when the Apollo sailed without her. She was picked up by a small boat and returned to the ship.
No one knew what the hell they were doing other than the crew in the engine room. That space was the only place that I saw on the ship that was immaculate.
Not my lifestyle, I assure you. I like things to be clean and orderly ( even beautiful if you must know). The Apollo did not measure up to any of my requirements for happy living.
I blew.

Chlng
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
NOT MARTY

I just felt with his background he could have been an important ally in handling these types of situations. I had not been aware of all that stuff you indicated with regards to Marty or wouldn't of suggested it. Somehow though, anyone delivering auditing out in the field has to be made accountable, as this guy who did you this way can also (and will) do others, until he's stopped.

I've been busy for a few days, at the Freezone Convention, and just saw this post.

The person I am referring to is not named Marty.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I've been busy for a few days, at the Freezone Convention, and just saw this
post.

The person I am referring to is not named Marty.

Hey Blue Spirit, welcome back! How was the convention?

I had earlier in this thread suggested that you communicate with Marty Rathbun in that maybe he would have some suggestions on how to handle the situation with this auditor you were dealing with. But since writing that I'm not sure that it was a good suggestion. :ohmy:
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
reposted from Gerry Armstrongs website:

5 p.180. Jon shows his ignorance of ships more than once. He says here
>that the chain locker is in the 'bowels' of the ship, that it is cold,
>wet, and has rats, is unlit, and that access is by way of a tiny manhole.
>The chain in question is the chain attached to a ship's anchor; an anchor
>is always located at the bow and possibly also at the stern; the 'Royal
>Scotsman' had two bow anchors, as most large ships do, and a stern anchor.
>The locker that stores the anchor's chain is directly below the opening on
>the deck through which the chain runs to let the anchor out or bring it
>in. There is not very much ship below the bows and the chain locker is
>hardly anywhere near the ship's bowels. I once inspected one of the bow
>chain lockers; I looked in through a large opening and found it flooded
>with daylight, dry, and not a rat in sight.
>
>http://freezoneamerica.org/ivy/bluesky/part8.htm
>


The only time I ever lived on a ship was the Royal Scotman/ Apollo. I do not know most of the terms to describe many of the parts of a ship. What point on a ship is is 'below the bows'? Is it below the water line?

I am doing some writing at the moment where I am describing the hold area where I was held, (I haven't put this on line yet) there was a definite curve to the side of the hold in which we were in Liability.The side of the wall was at an angle, with metal girders in places. I had to stand on one piece of metal, whilst holding on to another, to lean across to chip and scrape. It was imposible to stand upright and do this.I am not sure if this was below the water line or not, but it would make sence if it was.

Ok, so thats not the chain locker, but from my own experience, and from a kids point of view, if you're being held against your will in a dark, cold and dirty place, are being treated as if you are the scum of the earth, and you cannot for the life of you understand why you are being treated this way, frightened out of your wits, then the 'bowels of the ship', is a good description, because at the time it felt like being in the bowels of hell.

Without going back on the Apollo, or similar vessel,( I intend to at some point in time)I cannot say for sure where the grid for the chain locker is. However, I do know for sure that I saw with my own eyes a young female child, locked in a hole, with a metal grid, pulled aside. This child was filthy, she had not been there for a few minutes or even hours, she had been there a long time and there is NO justification on earth that will ever make that right.It was a dark hole and if you were not looking up out of the grid, it would have been pitch black, especially at night.The grid in question was certainly not that big.
 

Veda

Sponsor
reposted from Gerry Armstrongs website:

5 p.180. Jon shows his ignorance of ships more than once. He says here

-snip-



One small correction.

This link is from Freezoneamerica and quotes an 'IVy' magazine article that features Ken Urquhart's micro-analysis of Jon Atack's book 'Piece of Blue Sky'. This is the same Ken Urquhart who stated that, "There is no one of sufficient stature on this planet to stand in judgement of L. Ron Hubbard." I'm pretty sure that Gerry Armstrong does not share or endorse Ken Urquhart's views.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Veda wrote:

This link is from Freezoneamerica and quotes an 'IVy' magazine article that features Ken Urquhart's micro-analysis of Jon Atack's book 'Piece of Blue Sky'. This is the same Ken Urquhart who stated that, "There is no one of sufficient stature on this planet to stand in judgement of L. Ron Hubbard." I'm pretty sure that Gerry Armstrong does not share or endorse Ken Urquhart's views.

I can assure you neither do I. In fact as I told Terril recently, I should very much like to meet Ken Urqhart, having read his analysis of Jon Atacks book,especially as we were both on the Apollo at the same time, yet have such differing views on Hubbards' God like ways.
 
I would just like to add that I would love to see an updated revision of LRH~Messiah or Madman written and published soon, including how things have changed in the Critics world since the advent of the internet and then the rise of Anonymous...and what the current scene is with DM as dictator. :happydance:
 

Veda

Sponsor
I would just like to add that I would love to see an updated revision of LRH~Messiah or Madman written and published soon, including how things have changed in the Critics world since the advent of the internet and then the rise of Anonymous...and what the current scene is with DM as dictator. :happydance:

Well, 'Messiah or Madman?' http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637577/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0654802-4263319 has been published in three English language editions, each further revised and updated (1987, 1992, and 1996.) There is also a hardbound Russian language edition that became available in 2005. Unfortunately, for anyone searching the Net, the only scan available is a 1998 scan of the 1987 1st edition.

Since I have a copy of the 1996 (464 page, with new Index) edition, here is a an excerpt from the new book flap:



"I have high hopes of smashing my name
into history so violently that it will take a
legendary form even if all the books are
destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as
I am concerned. Things which stand too
consistently in my way make me nervous.
It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years
Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which
gives some idea of the magnitude of my
attempt. And all this boils and froths inside
my head...
"Psychiatrists, reaching the high of the
dusty desk, tell us that Alexander, Genghis
Khan and Napoleon were madmen. I know
they're maligning some very intelligent
gentlemen."

L. Ron Hubbard wrote these words in a letter to
his first wife in 1938.

In 1950 he wrote the bestseller Dianetics, the
Modern Science of Mental Health
. This inspired a
layman oriented mental health movement which,
ultimately, developed into Scientology, the most
profitable of the money-making new religions.

Hubbard's early Dianetic and Scientology writings
borrow freely from Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, and
the founder of General Semantics, Alfred Korzybski.

And P.T. Barnum appears to have been an inspiration.

Hubbard also took much from the writings of Aleister
Crowley - self-proclaimed "Beast 666." This is a source
of embarrassment for the Scientology Church, which
is determined to achieve broad public acceptance.

In the 1960s Hubbard incorporated Brainwashing
methodologies into the subject. He established the
"Fair Game Policy" which states that an "enemy" of
Scientology "may be deprived of property or injured
by any means by any Scientologist, without
discipline of that Scientologist. May be tricked,
sued, lied to or destroyed."

He also became the Commodore of his own private
navy, and began to refer to himself as "Source."

L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman? exposes
as never before the dark side of Scientology, yet
contains an in-depth examination of the potential
positives of the subject and their actual origins.
 
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