born in, 33 years later..

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Welcome to this here Rodeo, philTmonx. :thumbsup:

So glad you are here with all of Us. :)

My parents were Charismatic Born Again Fundamentalist Christians. They went to their graves seeing me as the great disappointment in their lives as I never would “Come to Jesus”. They never did “see” me or “hear” me. I tried and tried and tried to make “contact” but it never happened. Of course, having spent years working on a ship in a location I couldn’t tell them--with the “Anti-Christ”--didn’t help matters very much either.

Life is a series of choices, one after the other, day in day out. Each choice made leads yet to other choices to be made. Some choices are easy, some are hard and some lead to unforeseen consequences. Your parents have made their choices and will continue to make choices, as will you, as will I, as will all of Us.

You have made your choices and that has brought you to the point that you are now. You obviously have already had to make very difficult choices that a lot of folks have never had to make…so it is with many of Us. It may take years for you to “lay down your burden” or, such as it is with me, just live with it. What I do is just keep on going forward, always forward…one step at a time. Every day--every breath taken--is a Gift, whether or not we realize it. Some of the greatest pain, sorrow and suffering I have experienced has turned out to have been the outer wrapper of a priceless Gift.

Maybe your father will come around and maybe he won’t. Mine never did and that had a profoundly positive influence on my life. I learned how not to treat my children, my friends and the rest of my family. One thing I do know, as a father, is that probably a day does not go by that your father doesn’t think of you.

Speak your mind, say your peace…now is the time and this is the place.

None of Us agrees with everything posted here...afterall, “This is reality, Greg.” Elliot, E.T. the Extra terrestrial. :coolwink:

Face :)
 

Lexing Jenkins

Patron with Honors
Welcome to ESMB. We all have our circumstances for being here. Some were in and blew, some were never in, some were in and now practice independently. While we may not all get along (personally), we are untied in purpose. OSA trolls obviously don't count.
 

philTmonx

Patron
ok, i really want to thank all the constructive and kind words.. Im sitting here snivilling like a lil girl.. but happy.
I am very impressed with the welcome, and it was needed. I appeciate those who are able to grant me some understanding and compassion, especially those who have been in similar situations..
Its nothing but weird feeling to be able to relate to others in such personal matters..(for me this is true)
aface, thank you for putting that out there. It really dose put perspective that no its a human thing not LRH fugged up my life.. indeed its true it dose break down to choices on a personal level. Im very happy to feel like I have a place to interact with people about these matters, and not just get beat up..
vc cheers
exom YES!!!

I want to put this out there, I totally get and understand many peoples upset with the financial side of this stuff. I do not mean to be rude, I just want to say my part, and fo what its worth, the church never got a dime out of me, plain and simple.
Yes its true others were so inclined that I needed course that they paid for them. But I was always honest.. one of my AtoJ just flatly says I was not there of my own will and volition, but was willing to participate, as well as the flat answer to how are you going to repay____ for the services you recived, "I wont be, my participation and willingness to do so is my part, it is there want that I do so, so I feel in exchange."
 

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hi philT and welcome to ESMB. It's hard for born-in Scns to find their way, and I understand your difficulties. But, as Dame Julian of Norwich said hundreds of years ago, "All will be well". Just keep doing what you're doing. Your life will evolve as all of ours did, and sometimes the evolution can be fun.

What you'll find here is a bunch of people holding various views about Hubbard, Miscavige, the SO, Scientology, and its associated front groups. Lots of them have been through what you're going through, either as the born-in or as a parent or family member, or as a witness. So feel free to tell all -- we love stories!
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I want to put this out there, I totally get and understand many peoples upset with the financial side of this stuff. I do not mean to be rude, I just want to say my part, and fo what its worth, the church never got a dime out of me, plain and simple.
Yes its true others were so inclined that I needed course that they paid for them. But I was always honest.. one of my AtoJ just flatly says I was not there of my own will and volition, but was willing to participate, as well as the flat answer to how are you going to repay____ for the services you recived, "I wont be, my participation and willingness to do so is my part, it is there want that I do so, so I feel in exchange."

I was fortunate enough to be able to spend over 500k for my children's college education. I’ve told each of them, individually and personally, that they don’t owe me a goddam thing other than to pursue their passion and hold their head up as they brace the winds of life, and that my greatest blessing in this life has been able to afford an opportunity to them that I never had. That if anyone “owes” anything it is me to them for the opportunity to break the cycle of violence, self righteous indignation and daily condemnation for having been born.

You don’t owe a goddam thing to your parents and they don’t owe a goddam thing to you. “Owing Others” is a spin-bin and what Scn thrives on. Respect your parents, honor your parents, but “owe” your parents? No F’n way! All of Us have a “debt” we can never repay…to the few “Big Names", the many “Small Names” and, mostly, to the multitudes of “No Names”.

I look forward to hearing your story. :yes:

“May You Live Long and Prosper.” Mr. Spock, Vulcan Salutation. :thumbsup:

Face :)

PS: I apologize for “projecting” my life so much on you…your story has touched my heart.
 

philTmonx

Patron
Afaceinthecrowd,
please and thank you.. I dont find it project rather it is constructive relating, and for that I am truely gratful, I think that is one of the binders of being stuck "there".. feeling unable to relate to others etc, especially when shut out... it is the cause and want that drove me to finally speak up..
so again, please and thank you..
this is to others, I never was a head down deciple, yes I leaned of tech etc, by way of books for reference, as that was the only solution to things offered to me as a child. I do belive there is constructive data there, no I do not belive it was created at any point.. it is all rather common scence, unfortunatly that is far too uncommon. I do not give authorship to LRH.
I politly declined course successfully for the first 24 years of my life. this is dispite my family's desire to see me "succeed" in their eyes. I was happy and productive, that being the key. I did have some difficulties that any independant self employed people go thru. I was not happy with my situation, and as far as my family was conserned I was just a down stat.. things got bad, but thats for later, and where my AtoJ that stated I was not there of my own fee will, for over 3 months... (the i/c got an ethics cycle cause they refused to put that down, I was disturbed by her trying to put words in my moth, lucky, my father did not have as critical a view on me, he just really wanted me to finaly work on my bridge, hes a hatted cV auditor, I told him what happened and he routed me the way to handle it. I had to redo my AtoJ..
 

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was fortunate enough to be able to spend over 500k for my children's college education. I’ve told each of them, individually and personally, that they don’t owe me a goddam thing other than to pursue their passion and hold their head up as they brace the winds of life, and that my greatest blessing in this life has been able to afford an opportunity to them that I never had. That if anyone “owes” anything it is me to them for the opportunity to break the cycle of violence, self righteous indignation and daily condemnation for having been born.

You don’t owe a goddam thing to your parents and they don’t owe a goddam thing to you.
...

You wanna be my dad, Face? :p

Seriously, I agree. If someone has done you a good deed, IMO there is a moral obligation to pass it on -- not necessarily to the one who gave something to you. I know this is the theme of that movie "Pass It Forward" but I believed in this idea long before the movie was conceived. Kindness breeds kindness and lord knows this world could use a bit more.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
If someone has done you a good deed, IMO there is a moral obligation to pass it on -- not necessarily to the one who gave something to you. I know this is the theme of that movie "Pass It Forward" but I believed in this idea long before the movie was conceived. Kindness breeds kindness and lord knows this world could use a bit more.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::yes::yes::yes::clap::clap::clap:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Welcome PhilT.

Both of my children were born and raised in the Sea Org. Both are now out, and have been for almost 10 years. My daughter didn't go along with the "your dad is an SP" BS, so she got declared too. My son is still drinking of the kool-aid of Hubbard's delusion.

It takes time to unravel the layered upon layered ideas, agreements and notions that you were coaxed into accepting. While there are some good ideas, that can stand alone okay by themselves, when in the context of the Church they are almost ALL toxic.

Something got to me in your post. You mentioned that while you feel ethical that the Church views you otherwise. That is how it was for me too. When I wrote up honest reports about flaws in the behavior of the Church, doing the ONLY thing that I could based on my own personal integrity ( a concept I LEARNED from Hubbard), I was viewed and ATTACKED as "out-ethics". It doesn't matter how decent, moral or good you are - to THEM, the ONLY thing that matters is whether you support them or not. Think about it. In Hubbard's terms, it is OUT-ETHICS to possess ANY "counter-intention" or "other-intention" to Scientology. That is pretty severe. That means that if you, as a Scientologist, disagree with how OSA frames innocent people in crimes that they never committed, to help "protect" their "religion", that YOU are "out-ethics" (for disagreeing - having another view or intention). The key thing to disagree with here is that the goal of expanding Scientology is NOT the absolute top level goal against which all thoughts and actions should be judged in the Universe. But that is how it is in Scientology. Scientology ethics is entirely relative, and all personal behavior is measured by how well any action helps (assists, forwards, contributes to the motion) in "expanding Scientology". THAT is a rather IMMENSE arbitrary!!!!

Remember, "truth" has very little value in the Church of Scientology. Hubbard's and the Church's ONLY concern is getting and keeping your AGREEMENT - agreement with Hubbard's claims and the Church's behaviors. It doesn't matter to them at all that their OSA commits crimes and commits continual nasty behaviors against innocent people. A decent and moral person would recognize that. But it is NOT recognized within the Church agreement system.

So, take your time, realize you DO have "friends" here, and begin the journey of picking apart the craziness that IS Scientology.

My daughter and son have both mentioned that neither really had any problems or issues with growing up in the Cadet Org. They were kids, and it was largely "fun". It was only when they each were forced into joining the Sea Org at about age 14 that things started downhill.

Also, some of us here do recognize that it is NOT all "black or white". You will encounter "extreme" views that will paint EVERYTHING negative about every word Hubbard every spewed and every action any Scientologist ever did. Keep your cool. Some people had VERY bad experiences and they lash out at anything with the slightest odor of "Scientology".

As I see it, it is mostly a bunch of BS, but there are isolated notions and even goals, that BY THEMSELVES, far away from the context of organized Scientology, are not negative. But, the organized "business" known as the Church of Scientology is toxic for any person who gets more than slightly involved (whether they know it or not). There are simply so MANY things "wrong" with Hubbard's notions, statements and goals about how to "make Scientology succeed". A good place to start is by carefully reading, questioning, and noticing what a BIG BUNCH OF BS is KSW #1. KSW #1 is the rock upon which the "organized" Church is built. And it is filled with a great deal of nonsense, where Hubbard makes statements and claims that are really ONLY "weak assumptions" with absolutely no basis in fact. In Scientology, the "true believer" MUST accept and believe Hubbard's statements and claims. Part of the unraveling involves seeing that many of Hubbard's BOLD STATEMENTS are FICTION. He just made it up - and some accept and believe his fiction as if it were "true".

Also, as I saw it with my daughter, who took a good 7 years to fully jettison the majority of her "conditioning" into Hubbard's paradigm, and with me there to help her every step along the way, a person born and raised in the Sea Org has a unique difficulty. This person has known NOTHING ELSE, and besides getting rid of Hubbard's nonsense, it is good to begin replacing some of the nonsense with more "decent" and genuine ideas, ideals and views.

My daughter ran into the usual obvious contradictions once she was out in the "wog world".

1. Wogs were not all degraded, out-ethics and "downstat" as she had been led to believe by her isolated nutty Scientology-slanted education.

2. The world was NOT a "big bad place". Sure, there is insanity, war and crime, but it is FAR from ALL that.

3. People were often very kind and decent to her in the wog world, while in retrospect, some of those she knew in the Sea Org were NOT at all "kind" or "decent". Yes, of course, people are people no matter where you find them, and there will always be a variety of good ones and bad ones.

4. She was told over and over when she wanted to leave the Sea Org that ex-SO members are DBs (degraded beings). That haunted her for many years, because she had ACCEPTED that idea from the extensive brain-washing. Of course, many people leave the Sea Org and become successful, so the idea CANNOT BE TRUE. It is one of MANY IDEAS asserted by Hubbard that is NOT confirmed or verified by an honest calm observation of reality. That is true for MANY things Hubbard claimed. So, always try to compare Hubbard's CLAIMS and ASSERTIONS with actual real people, events and situations. There is often a contradiction lurking. For example, the "state of OT". Read all that Hubbard claims about such states, and then look at the actual "OTs". None display ANY of the traits Hubbard said that they would. This sort of contradiction exists for a great many things of Scientology.

5. She learned that CLAIMING you are "the good guys" and BEING the "good guys" are two very different things, as is the case with Hubbard's claims about Scientology.

A key thing to realize and notice is that a good deal of Hubbard's "good" statements and claims, either are NOT attainable, or have nothing to do with the REAL operation of the Church of Scientology.

For instance, some people come here on ESMB and complain, "but there ARE so many good ideas in the Creed of a Scientologist or the Code of Honor". Yes, there ARE. But, many are NOT PRACTICED fully or even at all in the Church. The other thing is that some of these "good ideas" are BAIT - to lure people in and to keep them in. Far too many Scientology members confuse Hubbard's many grandiose CLAIMS about Scientology with the ACTUALITY of Scientology.

There are MANY aspects to the mind-trap, and it won't all dissolve in one day.

Glad you are here! :thumbsup:
 
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olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Gadfly, your above post is one of the very best I have ever read on this forum.

Thank you for pointing out so precisely that while some of the "ideas" within the scientology materials may be harmless, fine, even useful in another context, these same ideas can be quite toxic within the context of scientology as a whole. Very well stated.

:thumbsup: OK, back on track...
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Gadfly, your above post is one of the very best I have ever read on this forum.

Thank you for pointing out so precisely that while some of the "ideas" within the scientology materials may be harmless, fine, even useful in another context, these same ideas can be quite toxic within the context of scientology as a whole. Very well stated.

:thumbsup: OK, back on track...

Thanks Olska. :yes:

Yes, context is often everything. The meaning and value of ideas CHANGE depending on context - not just in Scientology, but anywhere. In Scientology, this is extremely relevant.

The "context" of organized Scientology, that makes it so very toxic, is the entire framework of the "management theories and policies" (Green volumes, "admin tech", Flag Orders, Base Orders, OSA N/W Orders, etc.) that have as the sole aim and top-level goal of "making Scientology expand, succeed, and take over planet Earth and the rest of this sector". THAT is the exact "context" that renders even "decent" ideas FUCKED in Scientology. That is the "senior purpose" against which ALL ELSE is judged and interpreted in the Church of Scientology.

I remember back in the early 1980s when I first fully realized how FUCKED Scientology management was. That was about the time that John Travolta was talking out against "Scientology management", and saying thigns like "oh, I like some of the ideas of Scientology but management is evil".

As many of us do, we make the initial mistake of assuming that Scientology management has somehow "perverted good and decent Scientology", but any honest and observant person comes to eventually realize that it is the SUBJECT of Scientology management ITSELF that is so grossly flawed and off-the-wall. In other words, there can be NO DECENT SANE VERSION if one uses Hubbard's theories and policies on how to "expand Scientology". It is the context of the "organization", based upon the large collection of detailed orders by Hubbard on how to "run" such an organization, that renders it so brutally toxic.

Out of THAT context, there are some ideas that can serve a useful purpose for some, and NOT cause endless harm and confusion along the way. But all the "admin tech" that links to Scientology expansion goals and behaviors must be flushed down the toilet.
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Gadlfy,

You beat me to it with your post re: context. I agree 110% context is often everything and you have said it all so much better than I could. :clap:

Face :)
 

Stephanie

Patron with Honors
Welcome! When I first started lurking here I had this strange nervousness that I might get CAUGHT! Then as I read more and more I started to straighten out my values, my thoughts, recognize that the sheer volume of crimes the COS has committed is way past any of their justifications. Once upon a time they did indeed have a hold on my psyche, could scare me with my 'eternity', etc... nonsense. Today I'm totally stable, feel great, and live my life as I choose.

When I met a few crackpotty OT7's, nice guys but obviously the COS had screwed them up, and then a person who had done the BC THREE times, and was being regged for a fourth -- GAT you know, of course the cracks in the illusion were showing. Then of course, some of the regs, the women regs were so incredibly FAT, it actually scared me. Not only were they FAT like pigs, they snorted when they laughed, one had whiskers, and I'm sure she still does, can't be bothered to pluck out the faint mustache. I realize its incredibly vain of me, but my god, if your a porker - thats just disgusting - not to mention unhealthy, heart disease, diabetes, amputations, etc... ad nauseum. ik

So my point is....your so much better out of there, you could have ended up severly ugly.

lol.....it could be that since its the middle of the night I'm off kilter, but honestly, anyone who is 100-200+ pounds/stones overweight is utterly disgusting, skin crawlingly aberated even. How much does one have to eat to weight that much, must be around the clock for years. I can't imagine the upset stomach, and constipation one would have to endure....ik

Wow! I'm so funny, I really should do stand up. =))

Ironically what I gained from auditing/course allowed me to stand on my own two feet and be the person who can evaluate objectively. Its no wonder they are doing away with auditing/ course/ the bridge. By that I mean the endless donos, additives, incredibly high price of auditing, doing the basics instead of training to be an auditor. fwiw

What is ESK?

~ steph


hello and thank you for the space. I found it on ESK, i have learked around there for a while, read and reread the stories.. Im enamored with those girls, they are close to my age, yet have more strength in ways than I can muster for myself... I felt compelled to post here as it seems rather active, and well that would be the point if i were going to interact on the subject online. I have been off put by alot sites about the church etc, frankly it is easy to get enturbulated and dismiss others, for me at least, that i dont belive have an understanding of the experience. Yes, Im sure that from the outside it may be easy to laugh and talk trash to the point of attacking and humiliating those involved. This is why i choose to speak here, thank you, I feel safe..
I will work on my part to share my own experience, but for now want to thank all the constructive participants here. This is very difficult to confront, and I do know why. as some others here, I was born into scientology, home birthed to staff members the whole 9.. Its been 2 years for me from my disconnect letters from my father and his family, and Ive been a blow from pts1 audit for 7 years. My mother attested clear in 79 a year after my birth. I have have alot i need to cycle out, but im very conflicted. my fathers family, wife and 2 kids are connected to powers for the church.
I am hurt and I feel disrespected by the org and its practices. I am very gratful for having been raised as I was, it did help me to develope myself into my current being, would I wish it on any other, NO. This is not an attack on the church, I mean my home enviroments and choices made by parents etc. I do belive that there is great data there, but as with any religion, any man who blindly follows an other without question is a fool or slave. I do belive as with any group there are zelots.
At the exact same time, I feel guilt for the greater good. I want to talk, to comm cycle what is on my mind and heart, at the same time THAT IS THE EFFFING PROBLEM.. its frusterating, i want to yell out for help, but cant.. As much as I need that for me, it kills me that in doing so, others will suffer. I am not vindictive or malicious, I am ethical and good.. if others belive Im a suppresive, then I may well be. I am not as far as I know declared, but after my last few rounds with Brian the head reg at celebcentrral, I would not be shocked..
My reason for not yelling from the hills is not fear of being declared, but rather that my family will continue to pay penance for my choices.. I know writing me those letters hurt them as much me.. unlike most staff, my family are for the first time in their lives making good livings, they as i said are connected to a power and as such are paid well, and woking sci hours get that good good overtime(not orger diet no more)... I fear them loosing their jobs.. I fear that my choices would cause them harm and suffering from what they hold so dear and close.
I do have friends, but I dont share, I do not wish to burden anyone.. I belive that was well ingrained along with the at cause at all times. The idea that you are responsable for everythig that happens to you is alot to carry as a kid, and it is the reason I am so independent and dotn ask for help..
Ill work on putting something worth a read together, and appologise for the blert...
but you know what it felt damn good, so thanks for that
I have always loved the WOG world, and am proud to be able to be one of the ordinary working and at times a gentleman. :squirrel:
lovesphilth...
 
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KissMyStats

Patron with Honors
Welcome! When I first started lurking here I had this strange nervousness that I might get CAUGHT! Then as I read more and more I started to straighten out my values, my thoughts, recognize that the sheer volume of crimes the COS has committed is way past any of their justifications. Once upon a time they did indeed have a hold on my psyche, could scare me with my 'eternity', etc... nonsense. Today I'm totally stable, feel great, and live my life as I choose.

When I met a few crackpotty OT7's, nice guys but obviously the COS had screwed them up, and then a person who had done the BC THREE times, and was being regged for a fourth -- GAT you know, of course the cracks in the illusion were showing. Then of course, some of the regs, the women regs were so incredibly FAT, it actually scared me. Not only were they FAT like pigs, they snorted when they laughed, one had whiskers, and I'm sure she still does, can't be bothered to pluck out the faint mustache. I realize its incredibly vain of me, but my god, if your a porker - thats just disgusting - not to mention unhealthy, heart disease, diabetes, amputations, etc... ad nauseum. ik

So my point is....your so much better out of there, you could have ended up severly ugly.

lol.....it could be that since its the middle of the night I'm off kilter, but honestly, anyone who is 100-200+ pounds/stones overweight is utterly disgusting, skin crawlingly aberated even. How much does one have to eat to weight that much, must be around the clock for years. I can't imagine the upset stomach, and constipation one would have to endure....ik

Wow! I'm so funny, I really should do stand up. =))

Ironically what I gained from auditing/course allowed me to stand on my own two feet and be the person who can evaluate objectively. Its no wonder they are doing away with auditing/ course/ the bridge. By that I mean the endless donos, additives, incredibly high price of auditing, doing the basics instead of training to be an auditor. fwiw

What is ESK?

~ steph

ESK is Ex Scientology Kids website : http://exscientologykids.com/
 
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