Gadfly
Crusader
Do you know where I can find that actual statement:
"What is true is what's true for you"
I would like to see the context.
Breaking Cognitive Dissonance...
- Thread starter clamicide
- Start date
Do you know where I can find that actual statement:
"What is true is what's true for you"
I would like to see the context.
Blue Spirit
Silver Meritorious Patron
GADFLY + To Whom It May Concern
GADFLY: The reference on "What is true for you ..............."
is on the lecture (originally on cassette) called
"Scientology and Effective Knowledge", a very basic & good lecture.
The quote on Integrity is usually ignored by those still in.
There will be a flow of people coming out, but most will
"go down with the ship" until no services can be gotten and then
they might find the FZ, ESMB, other practices, whatever.
There is the "Disagreements Check" to try and change ones
disagreements to the party line, an auditing action.
I know two persons of enough integrity and honor that I
believe what they say. Each are in comm with LRH who is
aware of what has happened in the Church and says to do
your Bridge outside the Church.
I wish he'd come back and knock a few heads together, BUT
I believe he has too many overts to do so easily.
I'd like to send LRH to one of a few auditors I know to get his
damn withholds pulled. He would benefit.
BEA KIDDO volunteered I believe.
GADFLY: The reference on "What is true for you ..............."
is on the lecture (originally on cassette) called
"Scientology and Effective Knowledge", a very basic & good lecture.
The quote on Integrity is usually ignored by those still in.
There will be a flow of people coming out, but most will
"go down with the ship" until no services can be gotten and then
they might find the FZ, ESMB, other practices, whatever.
There is the "Disagreements Check" to try and change ones
disagreements to the party line, an auditing action.
I know two persons of enough integrity and honor that I
believe what they say. Each are in comm with LRH who is
aware of what has happened in the Church and says to do
your Bridge outside the Church.
I wish he'd come back and knock a few heads together, BUT
I believe he has too many overts to do so easily.
I'd like to send LRH to one of a few auditors I know to get his
damn withholds pulled. He would benefit.
BEA KIDDO volunteered I believe.
HelluvaHoax!
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I recently stumbled right into a moment of cognitive dissonance while walking past an IDEAL ORG in my city....near one of my offices. A good number of ANON & CRITICS were in full protest mode in front of the empty building.
The usual assemblage from CoS were on hand to "handle" it. The Exec Director of the org and a few key staff & some OSA handlers stood by, handing out religious bigot dead-agenting fliers and taking video footage.
I went up to the E.D and staff and asked what the protest was all about. They don't know me or that I am a former OT, highly trained tech terminal and S.O. Exec. I told them I my offices were in the area and I was curious why all these people were protesting. The Scn's were happy to have an audience and launched into the prepared script ("...they hate religion, they are religious bigots, they don't want churches to be able to have freedom of religion, they want to stop everyone from worshiping...." etc.) I listened.
Then I asked them WHY ARE THEY ONLY PROTESTING YOUR CHURCH?
They paused for a telltale beat. It was interesting to watch. Then they (virtually) blurted out " We don't know!" Hmmm, I thought, that was odd, they don't seem to have an answer for that one.
I continued the friendly conversation and they sort of recognized that I was a sophisticated businessman. I kept it professional and light, nothing heavy.
I said, "Boy if that were my business, I would sure DO SOMETHING to handle it. I am so surprised that your church doesn't DO SOMETHING to take care of that public relations nightmare!" They instantly said something like "What can we do about it? It's all lies" (resignation)
They were sort of vulnerable at that point....I said: "I JUST WONDER....DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY SLIGHTEST BIT OF TRUTH IN ANYTHING THAT THESE PROTESTERS ARE SAYING???"
They all just stared at me. No one answered. They were stunned by this question. It somehow broke thru to the human being standing there in front of me (not the "OT") thru the layers, filters and dense indoctrination.
I was so surprised that this question caught them in the headlights. More surprisingly was that NOT ONE OF THEM could say anything....anything.... Remarkable!
I must have stumbled (inadvertently) into one of those fissures in the brainwashing program. It actually started to crack open a bit in front of my eyes.
I think this confirms Clamicide's excellent observation that simple, normal conversation can sometimes be quite a potent tool.
I would take an educated guess that the stunned-silence-reaction was because they were not expecting to be asked so nicely about something that was so volatile. So they actually TOOK A LOOK at whether there was any slightest bit of truth to the protesters chants, placards, leaflets....
And they immediately must have hit upon THEIR OWN DOUBTS/QUESTIONS about the Church.
It's like a back-door into their thinking. The front door is bolted shut so tight a nuclear war would not even budge it ajar. (but "dangerous info" does quietly slip into the mail drop slot before they can realize what is happening).
Geez, it was amazing to watch Scientologists without an immediate answer to everything in the universe. That was startling to watch! lol
The usual assemblage from CoS were on hand to "handle" it. The Exec Director of the org and a few key staff & some OSA handlers stood by, handing out religious bigot dead-agenting fliers and taking video footage.
I went up to the E.D and staff and asked what the protest was all about. They don't know me or that I am a former OT, highly trained tech terminal and S.O. Exec. I told them I my offices were in the area and I was curious why all these people were protesting. The Scn's were happy to have an audience and launched into the prepared script ("...they hate religion, they are religious bigots, they don't want churches to be able to have freedom of religion, they want to stop everyone from worshiping...." etc.) I listened.
Then I asked them WHY ARE THEY ONLY PROTESTING YOUR CHURCH?
They paused for a telltale beat. It was interesting to watch. Then they (virtually) blurted out " We don't know!" Hmmm, I thought, that was odd, they don't seem to have an answer for that one.
I continued the friendly conversation and they sort of recognized that I was a sophisticated businessman. I kept it professional and light, nothing heavy.
I said, "Boy if that were my business, I would sure DO SOMETHING to handle it. I am so surprised that your church doesn't DO SOMETHING to take care of that public relations nightmare!" They instantly said something like "What can we do about it? It's all lies" (resignation)
They were sort of vulnerable at that point....I said: "I JUST WONDER....DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY SLIGHTEST BIT OF TRUTH IN ANYTHING THAT THESE PROTESTERS ARE SAYING???"
They all just stared at me. No one answered. They were stunned by this question. It somehow broke thru to the human being standing there in front of me (not the "OT") thru the layers, filters and dense indoctrination.
I was so surprised that this question caught them in the headlights. More surprisingly was that NOT ONE OF THEM could say anything....anything.... Remarkable!
I must have stumbled (inadvertently) into one of those fissures in the brainwashing program. It actually started to crack open a bit in front of my eyes.
I think this confirms Clamicide's excellent observation that simple, normal conversation can sometimes be quite a potent tool.
I would take an educated guess that the stunned-silence-reaction was because they were not expecting to be asked so nicely about something that was so volatile. So they actually TOOK A LOOK at whether there was any slightest bit of truth to the protesters chants, placards, leaflets....
And they immediately must have hit upon THEIR OWN DOUBTS/QUESTIONS about the Church.
It's like a back-door into their thinking. The front door is bolted shut so tight a nuclear war would not even budge it ajar. (but "dangerous info" does quietly slip into the mail drop slot before they can realize what is happening).
Geez, it was amazing to watch Scientologists without an immediate answer to everything in the universe. That was startling to watch! lol
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Gadfly
Crusader
I know two persons of enough integrity and honor that I believe what they say. Each are in comm with LRH who is aware of what has happened in the Church and says to do your Bridge outside the Church.
I wish he'd come back and knock a few heads together, BUT I believe he has too many overts to do so easily.
I'd like to send LRH to one of a few auditors I know to get his damn withholds pulled. He would benefit. BEA KIDDO volunteered I believe.
Let me see if I have this right? There are people in telepathic communication with LRH? And, LRH says to do the "Bridge" outside of the Church?
Geez. Hubbard is largely responsible for the mess. I don't get these people who try to lay it all on DM, as if everything would be fine if the folks just followed good ole' LRH policy. Sure, DM is a moron, no arguments there, BUT it was Hubbard who screwed up the Data Series by altering it from perfectly workable General Semantics, who wrote the policies on Fair Game, on SPs, on attacking critics, on overwhleming "any enemy with lawsuits", on "attacking, never discussing ANYTHING", on KSW that created the absolutist fanatical viewpoint inherent to almost all official Scientology, who developed an ethics/justice system that has more to do with maintaining group agreement than with any real "ethics", who developed a ego-driven "cult of personality" (which DM slipped right into), and who developed the tech of how to trick people into agreeing with you (regardless of truth) - the PR Series and the Marketing Series.
Plus, how could anyone "talk" to LRH by any means (telepathically or otherwise)? As far as I understand it he screwed up things so bad down here that his seniors (top members of the Great White Brotherhood) have assigend him to the Celestial RPF for the next 200 Earth years (deservedly so)! I doubt that HE will be coming back anytime soon.
P.S. Bea Kiddo along with a few reincarnated members of the Deadly Viper Squad is not half bad of an idea!!!!!
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Was it said or not?
Gadfly, I recall in my intro lecture,the lecturer stated it as follows, "If its not true for you, its not true." That was a loooong time ago and I am not 100% certain of that. I know I heard that thought voiced many other times while on staff and perhpas while attending seminars and/or events. Much more recently I heard the CD's from an LRH Congress where he voices this thought which he attributes to another source, Buddha I believe, and says he is so comfortable with this concept that he has made it a officially part of his philosophy.
lkwdblds
Gadfly, I recall in my intro lecture,the lecturer stated it as follows, "If its not true for you, its not true." That was a loooong time ago and I am not 100% certain of that. I know I heard that thought voiced many other times while on staff and perhpas while attending seminars and/or events. Much more recently I heard the CD's from an LRH Congress where he voices this thought which he attributes to another source, Buddha I believe, and says he is so comfortable with this concept that he has made it a officially part of his philosophy.
lkwdblds
Tiger Lily
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FlunkedForLaughing
Patron with Honors
Way to go Helluvahoax! I love it when Scn training works against the cult. I'll remember that the next time I talk with my wife about Scn. It seems like it's the friendly questions that work the best.
FFL
FFL
HelluvaHoax!
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THX FFL!
You know, your post jogged something loose which explains WHY those 4 Scientologists ALL had the identical reaction of stunned silence when I asked that question. It's cuz...
Scientologists are thoroughly INDOCTRINATED & PROGRAMMED to behave a certain way 100% of the time (because it's "standard" and "ethical").
They are trained into obedience, com cycles, looking inward for answers, always answering a question, searching their own universe for the real reasons behind everything that happens outside of their universe, etc.....
They are fantastically OBEDIENT! Like Pavlov's dogs each time the bell would ring.
So when I asked them something that had the ring of an auditing question or an ethics interview question, they immediately went into the trance and obeyed. They had no choice.
All four (4) of them went "into session" and began searching their universe, case, reactive mind, overts, time track and more.
THAT is why they could not answer. They were looking for the answer and they must have found or at least sensed something...which of course they could not talk about. Hence the silence.
Wow, forgot how slavishly mechanical and predictable they are.
If this was a mixed martial arts fight, the scientologists "strength" (obedience) would be used against them like Jujitsu throws a stronger opponent with their own force.
Jeez, this is not fair,it's too easy to win! hahaha
HelluvaHoax!
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That was awesome HelluvaHoax!
-TL
"Thank you for listening, Tiger Lily. I write just for you..."
LOL
(please forgive me for what I am about to do...hahahahahaha)
http://www.vimeo.com/5545170
SchwimmelPuckel
Genuine Meatball
You ask the impossible! - That is unforgivable!!!
Heh.. That 'performance' from Hubbard really should break the cognitive dissonance for anyone.. Yank 'em right out of Scientology!
scooter
Gold Meritorious Patron
Lots good posts on this thread
Nice start to a post Clammy - I believe that just plain simple conversation is the best way to get through the walls to the average cultie.
If they can be brought to LOOK, then you've got them out the door.
But I also like the noisy anon protest style that gets the attention of passersby and thoroughly inoculates them against the chance of catching the cult virus.
I think that both are important in the current collapse of the cult, but the hard-nosed attack on beliefs that I've seen here and elsewhere is totally ineffective and does just confirm how dangerous the "wog world" is to the average scilon - there's soooo many of us SPs out here now!
Nice start to a post Clammy
- I believe that just plain simple conversation is the best way to get through the walls to the average cultie.If they can be brought to LOOK, then you've got them out the door.
But I also like the noisy anon protest style that gets the attention of passersby and thoroughly inoculates them against the chance of catching the cult virus.
I think that both are important in the current collapse of the cult, but the hard-nosed attack on beliefs that I've seen here and elsewhere is totally ineffective and does just confirm how dangerous the "wog world" is to the average scilon - there's soooo many of us SPs out here now!
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
You ask the impossible! - That is unforgivable!!!
Heh.. That 'performance' from Hubbard really should break the cognitive dissonance for anyone.. Yank 'em right out of Scientology!
I beg for forgiveness! It is the greatest overt i committed on the whole track (tricking another into listening to Ron the Crooner)
I also beg for someone to give me a hypnotic command that will get that hideous song out of my head! LCMAO (line-charging my ass off)
lkwdblds
Crusader
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Lots good posts on this thread
Nice start to a post Clammy
If they can be brought to LOOK, then you've got them out the door.
But I also like the noisy anon protest style that gets the attention of passersby and thoroughly inoculates them against the chance of catching the cult virus.
I think that both are important in the current collapse of the cult, but the hard-nosed attack on beliefs that I've seen here and elsewhere is totally ineffective and does just confirm how dangerous the "wog world" is to the average scilon - there's soooo many of us SPs out here now!
Absolutely! Great point, Scooter.
Agreed....A war is best waged & won with force on ALL theaters simultaneously; Land, Sea and Air. Mix those with some real intelligence and the enemy starts to stumble over themselves in retreat (e.g. blowing). Their "fearless, god-like, infallible leader" (e.g. Hitler) retreats to his "bunker" and rages & sulks for a bit before getting rid of himself, literally or figuratively.
That's how it goes, watch for it! (hint: DM has already retreated to his bunker, which is why he was a no-show for the St. Pete Times)
So.....In the "war" being waged against the CoS, the multi-arenas of "combat" include:
ANON (brilliantly inspired street-theater agitprop cutting off the vital fuel, food, munitions and supply lines of the formerly advancing CoS armies)
CRITICS (indefatigable carpet bombing of rigidly entrenched CoS positions using tactical-truth-nukes.)
INTERNET (radio-free Teegeack breaks rock, paper and scissors)
EX-SCNs (dangerously knowledgeable, heavily-armed & extremely motivated guerillas, ninjas & assorted superheroes hell-bent for "settlin' this thing outside".
Hey, this is getting really good and it's not even intermission. Think I'll get a supersized Popcorn and settle in for a while.....
Good twin
Floater
SchwimmelPuckel
Genuine Meatball
I note that Hubbard takes care to disqualify skeptism and being critical. I'd recommend to ignore that part of Hubbards statement on Personal Integrity.. And hold on to your 'doubts' as well..
Hubbard also neglects to mention that awarenes of what we dont know is important..
Case in point: I do NOT know that I'm a 'thetan'. - I do know that I'm me however!
Hubbard also neglects to mention that awarenes of what we dont know is important..
Case in point: I do NOT know that I'm a 'thetan'. - I do know that I'm me however!
Good twin
Floater
I note that Hubbard takes care to disqualify skeptism and being critical. I'd recommend to ignore that part of Hubbards statement on Personal Integrity.. And hold on to your 'doubts' as well..
Hubbard also neglects to mention that awarenes of what we dont know is important..
Case in point: I do NOT know that I'm a 'thetan'. - I do know that I'm me however!
Tiger Lily
Gold Meritorious Patron
Oh my! I hadn't hear that in years . . . it's even worse than I remember!
When I read your original post I thought that it was probably you're training level that made that so effective. Those people who have been "in" know how the Scientology-indoctrinated mind works.
Several people have posted here about the value of open communication in breaking cognitive dissonance. Like Alex said a few posts ago -- just letting them communicate and listening is huge. We do this instinctively with out friends and our kids when they are going through a crisis. And as we're listening we may ask questions, or we may not depending on our "intuition" in that situation, but just being there and interested and caring is so valuable.
-TL
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