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Breaking Cognitive Dissonance...

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
How my hubby broke my "cognitive dissonance"

I said this recently on another thread but I'm going to say it again here because it fits with the topic so well. My cognitive dissonance was "broken" when I was telling my (non-scio) hubby that he should be open and look honestly at both sides. He looked right at me (no emotion, just matter of fact calm) and said "so should you". It made me angry at first, but how could I argue with him for suggesting I take my own advice. Ka-boom!

All his telling me I was wrong/brainwashed, and all his dismissing my thoughts about Scientology did nothing; but sincere open communication cracked it open.

-TL
 

RogerB

Crusader
I said this recently on another thread but I'm going to say it again here because it fits with the topic so well. My cognitive dissonance was "broken" when I was telling my (non-scio) hubby that he should be open and look honestly at both sides. He looked right at me (no emotion, just matter of fact calm) and said "so should you". It made me angry at first, but how could I argue with him for suggesting I take my own advice. Ka-boom!

All his telling me I was wrong/brainwashed, and all his dismissing my thoughts about Scientology did nothing; but sincere open communication cracked it open.

-TL
Looks like you've got yourself a good man there! Hang onto him:yes:

No cognitive dissonance there!:no:

R
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I note that Hubbard takes care to disqualify skeptism and being critical. I'd recommend to ignore that part of Hubbards statement on Personal Integrity.. And hold on to your 'doubts' as well..

Hubbard also neglects to mention that awarenes of what we dont know is important..

Case in point: I do NOT know that I'm a 'thetan'. - I do know that I'm me however!

:yes:

Hubbard actually does mention the value of being critical, BUT it is rarely referred to in the C of S. As LRH says in the first Student Hat tape:

Critical. Not that criticism is bad, don’t you see; but had developed a critical eye, did not have to slavishly say, “This is a picture by Sam Falk, New York Time magazine, one of the greatest exhibition photographers of all time. Therefore it is holy.” See? Gone completely through that and up to a point where, “That’s an awful good picture. That guy really has a good sense of composition, terrific sense of composition. But what the hell was he doing that day in the darkroom? Drunk?” See what I mean. And I could have put my finger on a point which I’m sure that Sam Falk himself would have agreed with.

This is just another of many examples in the C of S where there ARE varying policies, BUT only certain specific ones are used and referred to. The above one is NEVER referred to.

The problem in the Church is that many things ARE, for all practical purposes, treated as "holy" - many ideas and views are consdiered to be beyond questioning, beyond examining, and unable to be talked about in anything other than TOTAL AGREEMENT & BELIEF. THAT is what makes it exist as an absolutist practice.

And, YES, being able to know what you DON'T know is probably MORE important than all the "certainty of knowing" that Scientolgy constantly pumps up. The "dumbass" (aka "intellectually challenged" or "intellectually disingenuous") knows everything and is sure of everything. This type person is constantly making assertions, claims and statements (of fact), and usually acts likes God's gift to "knowingness". The wise man speaks little, and is much more aware of what he truly doesn't know (actually a GREAT DEAL).

_________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Cognitive Dissonance is very well explained in this article by the SPs at wikipedia.

As I understand it, cognitive dissonance is based upon a theory that one's personality is made up of THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS. When one or more of these are in conflict, you will feel dissonance. You will seek to reduce that dissonance by adjusting the others to be more consistent, and thus feel less dissonance in your universe.

You are a peace activist, for instance, and you find that in order to have peace you have to kill people every day. As a peace activist, your BEHAVIOR is running contrary to your EMOTIONS and THOUGHTS about who you are, what you stand for, and what is "ethical and moral" to your present personality. As long as you continue killing people as a peace activist, you will need to adjust your THOUGHTS and your EMOTIONS to be more in line with your new BEHAVIOR of killing people - and thus reduce the DISSONANCE you feel from it.

You can also use this understanding of the inner lives of people to "brainwash" them, or to change their personalities to be more in line with what you want.

Military boot camp uses cognitive dissonance to turn regular people who would never harm a fly into trained killing machines who will fight and die on command.

I believe that Hubbard took this same theory and applied it to the entry level services of Scientology in order to create Scientologists. See, all you have to do to create cognitive dissonance is to CONTROL one of the three above to be out of line with the others. In order to reduce the dissonance which comes from this, the person will be forced to bring the other two into line with the one you are controlling.

The Purif, Objectives, TRs and all the other beginning services are designed to CONTROL raw meat in order to turn them into Scientologists.

For example: Why am I sitting here staring this other guy straight in the eyes for hours and hours? None of my THOUGHTS or EMOTIONS square at all with this crazy BEHAVIOR that I am engaging in. And the supervisor is all over me, making sure that I keep doing the drill over and over for hours and hours and they will not let me stop until THEY SAY SO.

You become "restimulated", meaning that dissonance is being created in your universe. But the answer is always to KEEP DOING THE DRILL.

And then you have a COGNITION - your THOUGHTS are forced to change to be more in line with your BEHAVIOR. And you pass the drill.

This is the basic process that was being run on you when you were first becoming a Scientologist. And this was how Hubbard developed the basic structure of all Scientology training and processing. This continues all the way up to OT 8, where the EP is, basically: "I now know who I am not and am ready to be told who I am".

To keep you on the "straight road" (to stay in alignment with your Scientology Personality's THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS) you applied ETHICS which held the THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS that were consistent (non-dissonant) with your Scientology Personality in place. All other THOUGHTS, BEHAVIORS and EMOTIONS that were inconsistent with your Scientology Personality were "out-ethics". And the "restimulation" you felt from them were reduced when you had a "cognition" that was more in line with your Scientology Personality. That's why applying ethics conditions could sometimes be such a "relief". And that's why ethics officers and old Ron were always talking about your "integrity" as a Scientologist.

The theory of cognitive dissonance has been around since 1950, and was very hot in the emerging field of social psychology right around the time that Hubbard developed and released objective processing - the first overt application of outright brainwashing in Scientology.

Funny, he never mentioned any of this to us....

There's more to this understanding of what Hub.bard was doing to you with Scientology. And it can be applied to getting people out of Scientology, too.

The key, as Stephen Hassan explains in his fantastic book "Releasing the Bonds", is to break up the INFORMATION CONTROL that the cult is waging upon the cult member. That allows for the person to start to square all his cult personality thoughts, emotions and behaviors with information that he has had to shut himself off from in order to remain "ethical" as a cult member.

The Internet in general, and ESMB in particular, is great for breaking up information control. :D
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
Cognitive Dissonance is very well explained in this article by the SPs at wikipedia.

As I understand it, cognitive dissonance is based upon a theory that one's personality is made up of THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS. When one or more of these are in conflict, you will feel dissonance. You will seek to reduce that dissonance by adjusting the others to be more consistent, and thus feel less dissonance in your universe.

You are a peace activist, for instance, and you find that in order to have peace you have to kill people every day. As a peace activist, your BEHAVIOR is running contrary to your EMOTIONS and THOUGHTS about who you are, what you stand for, and what is "ethical and moral" to your present personality. As long as you continue killing people as a peace activist, you will need to adjust your THOUGHTS and your EMOTIONS to be more in line with your new BEHAVIOR of killing people - and thus reduce the DISSONANCE you feel from it.

You can also use this understanding of the inner lives of people to "brainwash" them, or to change their personalities to be more in line with what you want.

Military boot camp uses cognitive dissonance to turn regular people who would never harm a fly into trained killing machines who will fight and die on command.

I believe that Hubbard took this same theory and applied it to the entry level services of Scientology in order to create Scientologists. See, all you have to do to create cognitive dissonance is to CONTROL one of the three above to be out of line with the others. In order to reduce the dissonance which comes from this, the person will be forced to bring the other two into line with the one you are controlling.

The Purif, Objectives, TRs and all the other beginning services are designed to CONTROL raw meat in order to turn them into Scientologists.

For example: Why am I sitting here staring this other guy straight in the eyes for hours and hours? None of my THOUGHTS or EMOTIONS square at all with this crazy BEHAVIOR that I am engaging in. And the supervisor is all over me, making sure that I keep doing the drill over and over for hours and hours and they will not let me stop until THEY SAY SO.

You become "restimulated", meaning that dissonance is being created in your universe. But the answer is always to KEEP DOING THE DRILL.

And then you have a COGNITION - your THOUGHTS are forced to change to be more in line with your BEHAVIOR. And you pass the drill.

This is the basic process that was being run on you when you were first becoming a Scientologist. And this was how Hubbard developed the basic structure of all Scientology training and processing. This continues all the way up to OT 8, where the EP is, basically: "I now know who I am not and am ready to be told who I am".

To keep you on the "straight road" (to stay in alignment with your Scientology Personality's THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS) you applied ETHICS which held the THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS that were consistent (non-dissonant) with your Scientology Personality in place. All other THOUGHTS, BEHAVIORS and EMOTIONS that were inconsistent with your Scientology Personality were "out-ethics". And the "restimulation" you felt from them were reduced when you had a "cognition" that was more in line with your Scientology Personality. That's why applying ethics conditions could sometimes be such a "relief". And that's why ethics officers and old Ron were always talking about your "integrity" as a Scientologist.

The theory of cognitive dissonance has been around since 1950, and was very hot in the emerging field of social psychology right around the time that Hubbard developed and released objective processing - the first overt application of outright brainwashing in Scientology.

Funny, he never mentioned any of this to us....

There's more to this understanding of what Hub.bard was doing to you with Scientology. And it can be applied to getting people out of Scientology, too.

The key, as Stephen Hassan explains in his fantastic book "Releasing the Bonds", is to break up the INFORMATION CONTROL that the cult is waging upon the cult member. That allows for the person to start to square all his cult personality thoughts, emotions and behaviors with information that he has had to shut himself off from in order to remain "ethical" as a cult member.

The Internet in general, and ESMB in particular, is great for breaking up information control. :D

While I agree fully that cognitive dissonance is a key factor in involvement with Scientology, and I have said so in other posts, this is in some ways a poor and inaccurate analysis of various aspects of Scientology using the theory of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive Dissonance IS VERY WELL explained in the article you reference above.

You understand it incorrectly. It has little or nothing to do with EMOTIONS.

From the referenced site:

"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors."

The key point involves holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. Even when the aspect of CG involves "behavior", the dissonance generally occurs with the "idea about ones behavior" - as stated above as "the awareness of one's behavior, and facts". In essence actual CG occurs when observation, and thoughts about observation, conflict with some form of FIXED IDEAS. This is especially true in religious belief systems, where fixed ideas are very strict and well-formulated, and was discussed in the article regarding the UFO doomsday cult.

To me, CG grows with involvement in the Scientology and has VERY LITTLE to do with intro courses. In fact, what is so seductive about Scientology is that many of the "intro" courses do get legitimate positive results (that have NOTHING to do with cognitive dissonance). I find your example of TRs and the interpretation in alignment with CG to be ridiculous. It is just so "hokey". It is such a tremendous divergence from anything that is really happening when one does TRs. Being previously involved in the study of and practice of various forms of meditation, TR 0 was simply a great practical way to learn to "BE THERE". Control? Maybe YOU have a major problem with control buttons. To me, I just sat there, did the drill , let all the thoughts and BS fall away, and I hit the point where I could comfortably BE THERE. There is a legitimacy to many early Scn practices, and THAT is why people get hooked. If it was ALL, 100% entirely BS, no amount of control could "trick people".

It is necessary and vital that new people get real wins and successes from mostly legitimate methods, so that they can THEN come to accept and believe the KEY ideas mentioned below.

The BSM and study tech is the same. I studied engineering and psychology in college. I did very well. I knew nothing of study tech. But, when I studied the BSM (Basic Study manual), the three basic ideas made total sense, and still do. Hubbard again stole from theories of general semantics (GS). A key idea in GS is bringing (abstract) ideas into the realm of actual specific events. THAT is exactly what "demoing" and "drawing diagrams" does. The concept of asking, "how can it be that way", again brings concepts and ideas into the realm of actual experience by way of specific examples (more GS). The idea of defining all words is just plain common sense. Duh! But, nobody had ever gotten me to actually take it seriously before. I have ever since made sure to understand any word in anything I read. THAT is an accurate concept relating to understanding anything. On "skipped gradients", again, it is common sense. Most knowledge builds on earlier knowledge. If you don't learn the earlier steps well, it will be impossible to do well on later steps. So, the data clarifies some things to some people, and "helps" them. There is no control involved. The three ideas of study tech make total sense to me and to many other people - even non-Scientologists. To say otherwise simply displays, to me, a person who is so rabidly against "anything Scientoogy", that he or she will develop cognitive dissonance with THE fixed idea that "every bit of Scientology MUST be bad". Cognitive dissonance involves making tremendous leaps of logic, and often involves mental gymnastics, to allow the basic key FIXED IDEAS to remain intact and senior. I notice that severe critics suffer from it as much as do overly-indoctrinated active Church members, because they also have such rigid BELIEFS of their own that the critic is unwilling to have exist alongside actual contrary facts and observations.

Fanatics are fanatics, whether they are for or against Scientology.

Again, people with buttons on "control" may have a hard time with objectives. I co-audited objectives and had great wins. There was nothing about it that "conflicted" anything. Despite that, from day one I did have cognitive dissonance about many OTHER things, but it had little to do with introductory services. I will explain that later.

I agree completely that Scientology ethics and justices acts to demand behavioral adherence to certain IDEAS. THAT unravels as time goes by, and has little to do with introductory involvement with Scientology. The REAL cognitive dissonance begins once any member has accepted and BELIEVES (thinks with) these ideas:

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


It is primarily the eventual acceptance of the ABOVE ideas, that takes a certain amount of time for each member, that results in the cognitive dissonance.

For example, MANY members have problems with their bodies, health issues, wear glasses, etc, BUT the LRH data indicates that Scn "should" address and handle these situations. But, it often doesn't. Therefore, many members DENY or JUSTIFY their conditions to self and others. I knew a Sea Org member who was dying of cancer. She didn't want to ask her mother for financial assistance, because "Scientology works" and "I would feel PTS having to talk with her about it". She was very "conflicted", right up until she died.

Many examples of alterations of the tech have occurred by and through the actions of Miscavige and RTC. On the one hand, members accept and think with the idea that "the tech must always be protected from alterations, and RTC does that wonderrfully". Then, on the other hand, members constantly come across examples where the LRH data HAS BEEN ALTERED. THAT definitely causes cognitive dissonance. The two ideas are in severe conflict with each other.

Members are told year after year that Scientology is "expanding". Yet, many members walk into empty or near-empty orgs, time after time. How does one reconcile the "statement" and "assertion" (acceptance of the belief) that Scientology is expanding with the direct experience? One denies or more usually justifies - "oh, maybe my org is temporarily having a low time, BUT new orgs are always opening and OTHER orgs are flooded". There is no end to how one can MAKE UP ideas to allow ones structure of ideas to remain "consistent".

Another BIG basic belief and idea, is that "I can only get my Bridge in the Church, I WANT that Bridge, and I will do anything for it". The carrot-on-the-stick (personal spiritual freedom for all eternity) is a tremendous motivation for most members. THAT IDEA is basic and senior to many others. Other ideas must ALIGN with that idea. That idea is nurtured in members week after week, and year after year. It is a VITAL part of the PRIMARY belief system. So, the active member must constantly allow or cause contradictory observations and ideas to bend to fit with THAT key notion. Again, this occurs LATER on and not at all in the introductory stages.

There is no shortage of possible examples.

I see it this way. There is useful and legitimate information in much of the introductory data. If there weren't some of that, the scam NEVER could have held up so long. It is the usual tactic of putting "some truth" in there to grease the machinery of deceit. And, as time goes on, the constant contact with the above fundamental ideas turns them into RIGID UNQUESTIONABLE BELIEFS in the heads of members. This occurs by the usual constant barrage of KSW ideas on courses, briefings, musters, giving wins, events, magazines, pamphlets, videos, and so forth. The REAL cognitive dissonance comes into full swing when the person has become a TRUE BELIEVER. The above ideas become fully accepted and entirely REAL to the devoted Church member.

Just like in fundamentalist Christian religions, people BELIEVE so hard and so unwaveringly, that ANY data or even observations that conflict with the BELIEFS, are CHANGED to align with the FIXED BELIEF SYSTEM. Try to get one to accept the idea that the Earth and universe are older than 6000 years. No amount of "evidence" can convince them. Their BELIEF is senior to all else. The same with the dedicated ultra-indoctrinated unblinking Scientology Church member.

"Cognitive" is in the term "cognitive dissonance", because it primarily has to do with conflicting IDEAS. Again, "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts.

I agree that cognitive dissonance plays a MAJOR role in the mind of any active longer-term Scientologist. I do not see that it has much of anything to do with "introductory" aspects of Scientology. In fact, regges are recruiters have learned long ago that the "newbies" must be given time to "soak up" the above ideas, before they can be really hit hard with hard sell.
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
While I agree fully that cognitive dissonance is a key factor in involvement with Scientology, and I have said so in other posts, this is in some ways a poor and inaccurate analysis of various aspects of Scientology using the theory of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive Dissonance IS VERY WELL explained in the article you reference above.

You understand it incorrectly. It has little or nothing to do with EMOTIONS.

While it is explained well in that article, wikipedia is not the only source of information on the theory of cognitive dissonance.

In fact, in the other reference I cited, "Releasing the Bonds" by Stephen Hassan, this theory, as it relates to cult brainwashing, has very much to do with EMOTIONS.

On page 40 of his book, Hassan quotes Leon Festinger, one of the pioneers of the CD theory, as saying in 1950 "If you change a person's behavior, his thoughts and feelings will change to minimize the dissonance." In his other works on Cognitive Dissonance theory, it was Festinger who said that the personality was made up of Behavior, Thoughts and Emotions - not me.

Hassan talks about Festinger's theory as it relates to "control of Behavior, control of Thoughts, and control of Emotions" that cults employ, while he also describes the evolution of his own B.I.T.E. model in which Hassan adds the control of Information as it relates to cult mind control.

B.I.T.E. stands for Behavior, Information, Thoughts and EMOTIONS.

From the referenced site:

"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors."

The key point involves holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. Even when the aspect of CG involves "behavior", the dissonance generally occurs with the "idea about ones behavior" - as stated above as "the awareness of one's behavior, and facts". In essence actual CG occurs when observation, and thoughts about observation, conflict with some form of FIXED IDEAS. This is especially true in religious belief systems, where fixed ideas are very strict and well-formulated, and was discussed in the article regarding the UFO doomsday cult.
The theory of CD rests upon the idea that the personality is made up of Behaviors, Thoughts and Emotions. That wikipedia article did not go into that deeply enough - which is why I expanded on it by citing Hassan's book - especially as it relates to the purpose of this thread - "Breaking Cognitive Dissonance".

The key point of CD is not "holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously".

The key point of CD is that when you have thoughts, emotions and behaviors in conflict, it creates dissonance, and the person will try to adjust these three to bring them more in line to relieve the dissonance he feels.

The theory of Cognitive Dissonance is fundamentally a theory of the make up of a personality - not just what a person will do when he has a conflict of ideas.

To me, CG grows with involvement in the Scientology and has VERY LITTLE to do with intro courses. In fact, what is so seductive about Scientology is that many of the "intro" courses do get legitimate positive results (that have NOTHING to do with cognitive dissonance). I find your example of TRs and the interpretation in alignment with CG to be ridiculous. It is just so "hokey". It is such a tremendous divergence from anything that is really happening when one does TRs. Being previously involved in the study of and practice of various forms of meditation, TR 0 was simply a great practical way to learn to "BE THERE". Control? Maybe YOU have a major problem with control buttons. To me, I just sat there, did the drill , let all the thoughts and BS fall away, and I hit the point where I could comfortably BE THERE. There is a legitimacy to many early Scn practices, and THAT is why people get hooked. If it was ALL, 100% entirely BS, no amount of control could "trick people".

It is necessary and vital that new people get real wins and successes from mostly legitimate methods, so that they can THEN come to accept and believe the KEY ideas mentioned below.

The BSM and study tech is the same. I studied engineering and psychology in college. I did very well. I knew nothing of study tech. But, when I studied the BSM (Basic Study manual), the three basic ideas made total sense, and still do. Hubbard again stole from theories of general semantics (GS). A key idea in GS is bringing (abstract) ideas into the realm of actual specific events. THAT is exactly what "demoing" and "drawing diagrams" does. The concept of asking, "how can it be that way", again brings concepts and ideas into the realm of actual experience by way of specific examples (more GS). The idea of defining all words is just plain common sense. Duh! But, nobody had ever gotten me to actually take it seriously before. I have ever since made sure to understand any word in anything I read. THAT is an accurate concept relating to understanding anything. On "skipped gradients", again, it is common sense. Most knowledge builds on earlier knowledge. If you don't learn the earlier steps well, it will be impossible to do well on later steps. So, the data clarifies some things to some people, and "helps" them. There is no control involved. The three ideas of study tech make total sense to me and to many other people - even non-Scientologists. To say otherwise simply displays, to me, a person who is so rabidly against "anything Scientoogy", that he or she will develop cognitive dissonance with THE fixed idea that "every bit of Scientology MUST be bad". Cognitive dissonance involves making tremendous leaps of logic, and often involves mental gymnastics, to allow the basic key FIXED IDEAS to remain intact and senior. I notice that severe critics suffer from it as much as do overly-indoctrinated active Church members, because they also have such rigid BELIEFS of their own that the critic is unwilling to have exist alongside actual contrary facts and observations.

Fanatics are fanatics, whether they are for or against Scientology.

Again, people with buttons on "control" may have a hard time with objectives. I co-audited objectives and had great wins. There was nothing about it that "conflicted" anything. Despite that, from day one I did have cognitive dissonance about many OTHER things, but it had little to do with introductory services. I will explain that later.
I'm not completely sure of your point here: are you saying that I misunderstand the theory of cognitive dissonance because I am an anti-Scientology fanatic?

Or do I misunderstand CD because I have demonstrated a misunderstanding of the theory and application of Cognitive Dissonance somewhere in my posts?

If so, go ahead and point out that misunderstanding.

And, as far as "buttons on control" and how some people who have them are ... what... "low-toned"?

Show me a "button on control". Exactly what are they? And don't use Hubbard terms or concepts to demonstrate this.

Use real life.

Otherwise, I'm afraid you are still falling for one of Hubbard's tricks on you.

I agree completely that Scientology ethics and justices acts to demand behavioral adherence to certain IDEAS. THAT unravels as time goes by, and has little to do with introductory involvement with Scientology. The REAL cognitive dissonance begins once any member has accepted and BELIEVES (thinks with) these ideas:

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


It is primarily the eventual acceptance of the ABOVE ideas, that takes a certain amount of time for each member, that results in the cognitive dissonance.

For example, MANY members have problems with their bodies, health issues, wear glasses, etc, BUT the LRH data indicates that Scn "should" address and handle these situations. But, it often doesn't. Therefore, many members DENY or JUSTIFY their conditions to self and others. I knew a Sea Org member who was dying of cancer. She didn't want to ask her mother for financial assistance, because "Scientology works" and "I would feel PTS having to talk with her about it". She was very "conflicted", right up until she died.

Many examples of alterations of the tech have occurred by and through the actions of Miscavige and RTC. On the one hand, members accept and think with the idea that "the tech must always be protected from alterations, and RTC does that wonderrfully". Then, on the other hand, members constantly come across examples where the LRH data HAS BEEN ALTERED. THAT definitely causes cognitive dissonance. The two ideas are in severe conflict with each other.

Members are told year after year that Scientology is "expanding". Yet, many members walk into empty or near-empty orgs, time after time. How does one reconcile the "statement" and "assertion" (acceptance of the belief) that Scientology is expanding with the direct experience? One denies or more usually justifies - "oh, maybe my org is temporarily having a low time, BUT new orgs are always opening and OTHER orgs are flooded". There is no end to how one can MAKE UP ideas to allow ones structure of ideas to remain "consistent".

Another BIG basic belief and idea, is that "I can only get my Bridge in the Church, I WANT that Bridge, and I will do anything for it". The carrot-on-the-stick (personal spiritual freedom for all eternity) is a tremendous motivation for most members. THAT IDEA is basic and senior to many others. Other ideas must ALIGN with that idea. That idea is nurtured in members week after week, and year after year. It is a VITAL part of the PRIMARY belief system. So, the active member must constantly allow or cause contradictory observations and ideas to bend to fit with THAT key notion. Again, this occurs LATER on and not at all in the introductory stages.

There is no shortage of possible examples.

I see it this way. There is useful and legitimate information in much of the introductory data. If there weren't some of that, the scam NEVER could have held up so long. It is the usual tactic of putting "some truth" in there to grease the machinery of deceit. And, as time goes on, the constant contact with the above fundamental ideas turns them into RIGID UNQUESTIONABLE BELIEFS in the heads of members. This occurs by the usual constant barrage of KSW ideas on courses, briefings, musters, giving wins, events, magazines, pamphlets, videos, and so forth. The REAL cognitive dissonance comes into full swing when the person has become a TRUE BELIEVER. The above ideas become fully accepted and entirely REAL to the devoted Church member.

Just like in fundamentalist Christian religions, people BELIEVE so hard and so unwaveringly, that ANY data or even observations that conflict with the BELIEFS, are CHANGED to align with the FIXED BELIEF SYSTEM. Try to get one to accept the idea that the Earth and universe are older than 6000 years. No amount of "evidence" can convince them. Their BELIEF is senior to all else. The same with the dedicated ultra-indoctrinated unblinking Scientology Church member.

"Cognitive" is in the term "cognitive dissonance", because it primarily has to do with conflicting IDEAS. Again, "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts.

I agree that cognitive dissonance plays a MAJOR role in the mind of any active longer-term Scientologist. I do not see that it has much of anything to do with "introductory" aspects of Scientology. In fact, regges are recruiters have learned long ago that the "newbies" must be given time to "soak up" the above ideas, before they can be really hit hard with hard sell.
Your bolded statement above is incorrect.

The theory of CD is primarily a theory of the make up of a personality. And the reason it has so much to do with brainwashing is because mind control and brainwashing are all about IDENTITIES, and not primarily about CONFLICTING IDEAS, or simply the beliefs that are held.

What you are missing is that a person's self-identity has everything to do with brainwashing. Self-identity is who you tell yourself you are. All mind control and brainwashing must go in the direction of getting the person to create an identity that has the thoughts, behaviors and emotions that the cult needs him to have.

A Scientology Personality, for instance, is that artificial personality - meaning one that you did not create on your own - that has the Thoughts, Behaviors and Emotions that serve the interests of L Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology more than your own self-interests. In brainwashing and mind control, that false identity is installed through various techniques of persuasion and social coercion, to the interests of the cult, and against the person's own self-interests.

Cognitive Dissonance theory is not primarily about ideas. It explains the reason the person justifies away conflicting ideas. It is because to look at those ideas would threaten something much larger to him than just his ideas. The reason he justifies those conflicting ideas away is because to look at them threatens his whole sense of self.

That is the part of theory of cognitive dissonance that you are missing - the fact that it is a theory of personality that has been applied to both brainwash people - as Hubbard did so eagerly when he came across it in the early 50's - and to un-brainwash them, as Hassan has done in his books.
 
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Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Gadfly: The REAL cognitive dissonance begins once any member has accepted and BELIEVES (thinks with) these ideas:

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


It is primarily the eventual acceptance of the ABOVE ideas, that takes a certain amount of time for each member, that results in the cognitive dissonance.
So, Gadfly, if I never bought into any of the above ideas does that mean that I wasn't a proper scientologist or that I was an unusual scientologist?
(I liked the post btw.)

<...snip>
(deleted)
Al, I liked your post too but found the above comment to be just too patronising. Did you mean it to read that way?
 

Carmel

Crusader
Who came up with this 'theory' of "cognitive dissonance'? Does everyone 'buy' it?

To me, it's not a 'theory' at all, it's just a label for a phenomenon - An 'after the fact' phenomenon common to varying causes, so there isn't a solution to 'breaking' it, 'cause it itself isn't 'the' issue, or 'the' thing that needs 'breaking'.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Who came up with this 'theory' of "cognitive dissonance'? Does everyone 'buy' it?

Leon Festinger, 1950.

See an article on him HERE

There is a lot to it. More than we are discussing here.

As with any theory, it is a model that can be used to understand people, and some of what they do.

It's not trying to as-is the whole universe or anything.

Just trying to explain what makes up a personality, and why people change, and how to get them to change.

To me, it's not a 'theory' at all, it's just a label for a phenomenon - An 'after the fact' phenomenon common to varying causes, so there isn't a solution to 'breaking' it, 'cause it itself isn't 'the' issue, or 'the' thing that needs 'breaking'.
Read more on it.

This theory is now categorized as part of the an area of Social Psychology, which has LOTS of great info in it regarding Scientology and what Hubbard was actually doing when he set up the Church and ran it for 36 years.

In fact, I believe that Hubbard studied Social Psychology to develop the artificial society that is the Church of Scientology.
 
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Whoever came up with the theory could have had a number of reasons for doing so. Observing the phenomenon may not have been enough. For example how did the Jewish holocaust happen? Why did so many participate? Did they just start when they were told to or did they have to be gotten to a point where they were willing to do what they would not have done without some sort of mental conditioning? How do people come to believe the stuff that cult-masters dish out? Why have some of them (not Scio) been willing to kill themselves enmasse?. The theory of cognitive dissonance may help to understand those things, and since it is a theory it is up for criticism refinement etc in the interests of understanding the questions.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Interest summary covering a lot of ground

fix typosTo me, CG grows with involvement in the Scientology and has VERY LITTLE to do with intro courses. In fact, what is so seductive about Scientology is that many of the "intro" courses do get legitimate positive results (that have NOTHING to do with cognitive dissonance). I find your example of TRs and the interpretation in alignment with CG to be ridiculous. It is just so "hokey". It is such a tremendous divergence from anything that is really happening when one does TRs. Being previously involved in the study of and practice of various forms of meditation, TR 0 was simply a great practical way to learn to "BE THERE". Control? Maybe YOU have a major problem with control buttons. To me, I just sat there, did the drill , let all the thoughts and BS fall away, and I hit the point where I could comfortably BE THERE. There is a legitimacy to many early Scn practices, and THAT is why people get hooked. If it was ALL, 100% entirely BS, no amount of control could "trick people".

It is necessary and vital that new people get real wins and successes from mostly legitimate methods, so that they can THEN come to accept and believe the KEY ideas mentioned below.

Very well stated summary of an area that a lot of ex-scios fail to observe.
I wrote something similar a day or two ago. I conjectured that Hubbard must have decided in the late 1940's that he would write a book that he hoped would start a grass roots movement and that he realized that he had to give people tangible wins in the introductory phases of studying his subject or they would simply yawn at what he was saying and leave never to return. Hubbard's talent or brilliance was in that he was able to present data and techniques which led to major wins in the intro portion of his program. As a result people joined his movement. If he was just "smoke and mirrors" and no one had tangible wins in the early stages of his program, his movement never would have taken off
.

The BSM and study tech is the same. I studied engineering and psychology in college. I did very well. I knew nothing of study tech. But, when I studied the BSM (Basic Study manual), the three basic ideas made total sense, and still do. Hubbard again stole from theories of general semantics (GS). A key idea in GS is bringing (abstract) ideas into the realm of actual specific events. THAT is exactly what "demoing" and "drawing diagrams" does. The concept of asking, "how can it be that way", again brings concepts and ideas into the realm of actual experience by way of specific examples (more GS). The idea of defining all words is just plain common sense. Duh! But, nobody had ever gotten me to actually take it seriously before. I have ever since made sure to understand any word in anything I read. THAT is an accurate concept relating to understanding anything. On "skipped gradients", again, it is common sense. Most knowledge builds on earlier knowledge. If you don't learn the earlier steps well, it will be impossible to do well on later steps. So, the data clarifies some things to some people, and "helps" them. There is no control involved. The three ideas of study tech make total sense to me and to many other people - even non-Scientologists. To say otherwise simply displays, to me, a person who is so rabidly against "anything Scientoogy", that he or she will develop cognitive dissonance with THE fixed idea that "every bit of Scientology MUST be bad". Cognitive dissonance involves making tremendous leaps of logic, and often involves mental gymnastics, to allow the basic key FIXED IDEAS to remain intact and senior. I notice that severe critics suffer from it as much as do overly-indoctrinated active Church members, because they also have such rigid BELIEFS of their own that the critic is unwilling to have exist alongside actual contrary facts and observations.

Well stated and informative. I had similar experiences and still clear words and do demos when I study. The skipped gradient is prevalent throughout our educational system. Persons who may know their material but have no teaching skills, whatsoever, teach courses where very few people learn anything. The Professor justifies the lousy results on his tests by saying, "this is an Ivy League school and my material is very difficult, only the top 20% can pass my tests and that is as it should be. In actual fact, if the subject was organized well and taught properly, nearly 100% of the students would be able to gain understanding of it. You then have 80% of the students not understanding the material and getting a 'C' or "D" and most of them taking the next course on that subject with a skipped gradient.

Fanatics are fanatics, whether they are for or against Scientology.

This is so true!

Again, people with buttons on "control" may have a hard time with objectives. I co-audited objectives and had great wins. There was nothing about it that "conflicted" anything. Despite that, from day one I did have cognitive dissonance about many OTHER things, but it had little to do with introductory services. I will explain that later.

I agree completely that Scientology ethics and justices acts to demand behavioral adherence to certain IDEAS. THAT unravels as time goes by, and has little to do with introductory involvement with Scientology. The REAL cognitive dissonance begins once any member has accepted and BELIEVES (thinks with) these ideas:

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


Very good and comprehensive list. Nice presentation! I had non verbalized thoughts such as this floating around in my mind but I have never before seen it put into words and placed in a logical oreder.

It is primarily the eventual acceptance of the ABOVE ideas, that takes a certain amount of time for each member, that results in the cognitive dissonance.

This seems like a sound conclusion to me. It will be interesting to see if someone challenges you on this and if they do, what argument they put forth to refute your conclusion.

For example, MANY members have problems with their bodies, health issues, wear glasses, etc, BUT the LRH data indicates that Scn "should" address and handle these situations. But, it often doesn't. Therefore, many members DENY or JUSTIFY their conditions to self and others. I knew a Sea Org member who was dying of cancer. She didn't want to ask her mother for financial assistance, because "Scientology works" and "I would feel PTS having to talk with her about it". She was very "conflicted", right up until she died.

LRH himself lived with his own confusion in these areas. He would often say that wearing eye glasses showed that someone was withholding overt acts which he had committed, he said that Book one Dianetic auditing could cure poor eyesight in gradient stages. He himself was nearsighted throughout his life and needed to wear glasses to read. He would never let people see him wearing glasses or reading with glasses because it would tarnish his image.

Many examples of alterations of the tech have occurred by and through the actions of Miscavige and RTC. On the one hand, members accept and think with the idea that "the tech must always be protected from alterations, and RTC does that wonderrfully". Then, on the other hand, members constantly come across examples where the LRH data HAS BEEN ALTERED. THAT definitely causes cognitive dissonance. The two ideas are in severe conflict with each other.

The Basic Book program is the best example of what you are saying which has come to light in recent times.

Members are told year after year that Scientology is "expanding". Yet, many members walk into empty or near-empty orgs, time after time. How does one reconcile the "statement" and "assertion" (acceptance of the belief) that Scientology is expanding with the direct experience? One denies or more usually justifies - "oh, maybe my org is temporarily having a low time, BUT new orgs are always opening and OTHER orgs are flooded". There is no end to how one can MAKE UP ideas to allow ones structure of ideas to remain "consistent".

Those magazines which compare well with "National Geographic" are very convincing when they show the photo spreads of the exteriors and interiors of many of the new Ideal Orgs. If a staff member is not allowed much contact with the outside world and its media, those magazine spreads would be enough to convince almost anyone.

Another BIG basic belief and idea, is that "I can only get my Bridge in the Church, I WANT that Bridge, and I will do anything for it". The carrot-on-the-stick (personal spiritual freedom for all eternity) is a tremendous motivation for most members. THAT IDEA is basic and senior to many others. Other ideas must ALIGN with that idea. That idea is nurtured in members week after week, and year after year. It is a VITAL part of the PRIMARY belief system. So, the active member must constantly allow or cause contradictory observations and ideas to bend to fit with THAT key notion. Again, this occurs LATER on and not at all in the introductory stages.

There is no shortage of possible examples.

I see it this way. There is useful and legitimate information in much of the introductory data. If there weren't some of that, the scam NEVER could have held up so long. It is the usual tactic of putting "some truth" in there to grease the machinery of deceit. And, as time goes on, the constant contact with the above fundamental ideas turns them into RIGID UNQUESTIONABLE BELIEFS in the heads of members. This occurs by the usual constant barrage of KSW ideas on courses, briefings, musters, giving wins, events, magazines, pamphlets, videos, and so forth. The REAL cognitive dissonance comes into full swing when the person has become a TRUE BELIEVER. The above ideas become fully accepted and entirely REAL to the devoted Church member.

The above paragraph is oh so true!

Just like in fundamentalist Christian religions, people BELIEVE so hard and so unwaveringly, that ANY data or even observations that conflict with the BELIEFS, are CHANGED to align with the FIXED BELIEF SYSTEM. Try to get one to accept the idea that the Earth and universe are older than 6000 years. No amount of "evidence" can convince them. Their BELIEF is senior to all else. The same with the dedicated ultra-indoctrinated unblinking Scientology Church member.


"Cognitive" is in the term "cognitive dissonance", because it primarily has to do with conflicting IDEAS. Again, "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts.

I agree that cognitive dissonance plays a MAJOR role in the mind of any active longer-term Scientologist. I do not see that it has much of anything to do with "introductory" aspects of Scientology. In fact, regges are recruiters have learned long ago that the "newbies" must be given time to "soak up" the above ideas, before they can be really hit hard with hard sell.[/QUOTE]

Gadfly, it must have taken a lot of effort for you to write this long and informative critique. Your article covers a lot of topics and is very comprehensive. I love your list items which the newer member begins to believe after he has first had some introductory wins and has been given a little time and space to enjoy them.
lkwdblds
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
Gadfly, it must have taken a lot of effort for you to write this long and informative critique. Your article covers a lot of topics and is very comprehensive. I love your list items which the newer member begins to believe after he has first had some introductory wins and has been given a little time and space to enjoy them.
lkwdblds

No effort at all. I write fast. I talk and write off-the-cuff. I don't spend much time "figuring out" what to say. My views are my views, so I just put them into words.

On the list. Does anyone else have other "beliefs" to add? I made up the list quickly and it was in no sense "complete". Here are some of the basic ideas that most members come to accept as true (adopt as BELIEFS):

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


Please add others that you have observed, or accepted yourself as true at some point during your involvement with Scientology. What I am looking for are ideas and beliefs that stem directly from policy statements made by Hubbard. There are many. For example, "the Sea Org is an elite organization". That is an assertion and claim made by Hubbard. He wanted members to accept that idea. Though, in the end, I doubt many really did (except some big-headed Sea Org members). I am looking for ideas and beliefs that REALLY become TRUE for the believer.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
The list is pretty comprehensive but.....

No effort at all. I write fast. I talk and write off-the-cuff. I don't spend much time "figuring out" what to say. My views are my views, so I just put them into words.

On the list. Does anyone else have other "beliefs" to add? I made up the list quickly and it was in no sense "complete". Here are some of the basic ideas that most members come to accept as true (adopt as BELIEFS):

Scientology is the ONLY workable path to spiritual freedom
Scientology is a mission, a dedication and a crusade
The survival and eternity of every man, woman and child depends on what YOU do here and now with Scientology
LRH was a genius
Evil nasty people KNOW Scientology works and they will do everything to stop it
Because of the above, ANYTHING we do to safeguard and expand Scn is justified
Nothing is more important than "going up the Bridge" and expanding Scientology
RTC is perfectly safeguarding the technology
David Miscavige is a "wunderkind"
Anyone who questions, criticizes or belittle anything about Scientology is at least misguided and ignorant, and at worse, a true suppressive person


Please add others that you have observed, or accepted yourself as true at some point during your involvement with Scientology. What I am looking for are ideas and beliefs that stem directly from policy statements made by Hubbard. There are many. For example, "the Sea Org is an elite organization". That is an assertion and claim made by Hubbard. He wanted members to accept that idea. Though, in the end, I doubt many really did (except some big-headed Sea Org members). I am looking for ideas and beliefs that REALLY become TRUE for the believer.

Gadfly, the list is pretty comprehensive. I thought of a couple of things that might be added. One comes from Ron's Journal 67, which among other things announces OT3, The Wall of Fire. Hubbard says something like, In all the broad universe, there is no purpose worth pursuing more important than Scientology's, this has been a tremendous responsiblity which I alone carried. You share it with me now!" The point in al this and the item which could be added to the list is that Hubbard is asserting that his wisdom is not confined to Earth, or just this Solar System or EVEN THIS GALAXY. He was telling us that he knew what was was going on now and had gone on previously for all time periods in "ALL THE BROAD UNIVERSE". We were never told how he achieved this infinite wisdom but we were sure being asked to accept that he had it and to take our share of responsibility for it.

The other item has to do with other teachings, In KSW Hubbard says Scientology is not a perfect system (Perhaps the only instance of any humility in the entire tech) but it is a workable system. He then tells us that out of thousands and thousands of suggestions made to him by others, only 20 had any long term value and of the 20 none of them were basic. He then says that if a guide was leading a lost party out of a cave, no rational person would leave the guide and take an alternate path just to smell the daisies.

The points here are that no one else other than LRH is capable of developing any workable tech (This could be added to the list) and why risk taking another system which seemed more attractive if one was using the only workable system ever discovered.

That 20 out of 100,00 suggestions turned out to have no value has veen revealed to have been a bogus claim since Hubbards work seems to be a cleverly packaged amalgam of Freud, Vedic religions, Western Engineering and Mathematics, General Semantics and other assorted works of others. Even within Scientology, according to people who worked with LRH, a lot of his own tech was first created by others and then adopted by Hubbard who also took over the claim of being the originator. I am thinking of the Halperns and the Tr's, Evans Farber and the process, "Be 3 feet in back of your Head." which was basic, John Galusha's work, Mayo's work especially on NOTS and the Way to Happiness and so much else.
lkwdblds
 

cleared cannibal

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I am trying to follow the suggestion of not starting new threads when an existing one exists.

In my in-box recently is an example of why I have some cognitive dissonance. I agree with most of the message , with the possible exception of the anti-psych stuff.

I find myself experiencing internal stress because I agree with something the COS does. Even if you don't agree with this message I think we all have experienced a similar phenomenon.

I dammed sure don't want to change my beliefs because of Scn, but I find myself feeling uncomfortable agreeing with them.

Any suggestions?

Sorry to ask a question and run but I will be off line the rest of the day. Maybe I can sort it out this afternoon, nothing like diesel smoke to clear your head.


[h=3]The Glue of Society[/h]Religion is the glue that binds a culture together. Yet it has become customary to mock religion in America today.
We’re not talking here about devotion to a particular religious practice. We are talking about a decline in moral values that used to be shored up by our religious faith, religious leaders, and religious communities.
Diversity of belief is a sign of a healthy democracy. Yet we observe not just diversity, but hostility and antagonism.
A society that unjustly restricts the religious practices of one group will likely be found to undermine justice for all other groups.
There is a relationship between religion, religious freedom, and violence that needs further exploration. We find, yet again, that the junk sciences of psychiatry and psychology are involved in the decline of this culture.
A May 2014 study by researchers at Georgetown University and Brigham Young University found that, “Standards and practices of honesty and integrity rest, ultimately, on…ideas of right and wrong, which for most of us are grounded in principles of religion and the teachings of religious leaders.”
As a result of psychiatrists’ subversive plan for religion, the concepts of good and bad behavior, right and wrong conduct and personal responsibility have taken such a beating that people today have few or no guidelines for checking, judging or directing their behavior.
A co-founder of the World Federation for Mental Health, Canadian psychiatrist G. Brock Chisholm, reinforced this master plan in 1945 by targeting religious values and calling for psychiatrists to free “the race … from its crippling burden of good and evil.” Viciously usurping age-old religious principles, psychiatrists have sanitized criminal conduct and defined sin and evil as “mental disorders,” “treatable” with harmful and addictive psychotropic drugs.
Following are several Chisholm quotes:
“To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas…”
“If the race is to be freed from its crippling burden of good and evil it must be psychiatrists who take the original responsibility.”
“The re-interpretation and eventually eradication of the concept of right and wrong which has been the basis of child training, the substitution of intelligent and rational thinking for faith…are the belated objectives of practically all effective psychotherapy. The fact is, that most psychiatrists and psychologists and other respectable people have escaped from these moral chains and are able to observe and think freely.”
Let’s face it, we’ve been fed a pack of lies and we are now seriously trying to eradicate, with terrorism on one side and the “war on terror” on the other side, each other.
Society is coming unglued.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Hiya CC,

Firstly, that's just one study and too recent to have many repetitions. Previous studies found absolutely no connection between religion and moral/ethical behavior. So don't accept that study as fact. (I majored in Sociology/Psychology years ago and remember many of the studies very well.)

Although many well-intentioned people practice their beliefs for the good of all, we, as humans, are inherently flawed.

Our drives for ambition, wealth, power and concepts of superiority to other people or living things (which assumes others inferior) is a very basic flaw in our nature. Sure, the drives can result in a lot of good, but IMHO, it is our very same personal egos that get in the way of peaceful co-existence and full acceptance of others and makes us view others badly, which in turn, makes them respond badly.

There is no cure. There is only the appeal to fairness, rationality and working constantly at judging each situation on its own merits and reminding ourselves to treat others kindly and with love and compassion. If religion or belief helps a person or society to achieve this (I mentioned Fiji on another thread, and there, that is the case), then it is a good thing. If it promotes an "us vs. them" mentality rather than help us to fight that mentality, it is a bad thing.

Maybe that's oversimplistic, but I see that as the basic problem.

My take on the whole Adam & Eve story is a LOT different than the norm, and I doubt my interpretation would get much agreement, but my version goes something like this (this is a FABLE, by the way):

THE REAL STORY OF ADAM AND EVE

There were apes, and there was a hairless ape and the hairless ape noticed he was different. Perhaps when he ate from that tree nobody would touch, he lost all his fur from a virus. Perhaps this caused a genetic mutation. At any rate, the other apes did not recognize him as the same species and would not mate with him and Adam found this offensive, so left the group. Adam saw himself as different and decided that different was better and meant he was superior. He was angry at being shunned by the apes and decided he was better than all of creation, so he would dominate and enslave living things instead. All his time separated from similar creatures meant Adam had lots of time on his hands, so he thought a lot, and having no other social interaction, believed he was having conversations with the Creator. Adam developed as an individual. His intelligence also developed. Adam became capable of decisions, but was lonely, so he invented a religion where he would be the most important creature around and related to the creator, but no other creature could have that special relationship. It was probably a delusion that he was personally a creator, but these things happen when a hairless ape spends too much time alone.

One day Adam wanders back to the tree where he probably caught the virus and sees a female ape there. He entices her to eat from the tree so that he'll have a mate, but doesn't tell her what will happen. She loses her fur and feels naked and ashamed of her hairless body which is so different from other apes, but Adam consoles her and insists she was never an ape in the first place, she was a creation from his rib and he knows because he talks to God all the time. He also convinces her that it was she who tricked him into eating from the tree, not the other way around, but she is lucky to have him because he forgives her and loves her anyway. In her fevered, virus-induced state, Eve believes Adam and the two begin a genetically mutated species.

The apes catch up with the two of them, shocked to find they ate from a poisonous tree and quite upset to see them naked without fur. They chase the two out of the garden, or maybe Adam & Eve left on their own. It's hard to say, because they were cold with no fur and needed a warmer climate.

And so began Original Sin - the concept of being different, of being separate from others, of being inferior or superior and territorial. This is the cost of individual intelligence instead of group instinct. This is the cost of making one's own decisions, rather than following instincts or other behaviors. This is the curse as well as the blessing of great knowledge, science, antibiotics, fire, energy, etc. It is the cost of civilization and also the reason we do not always behave in a civilized way.

Adam then named his new species "human" and named the other animals. He changed the story when he told it to his kids, though, and when they developed some form of crude writing, they wrote what Adam said and called it Genesis and passed the story down to their kin.

THE END.
 
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Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good point Clammie - but what I have noticed is it does not matter - the "implants" only shatter when it effects the person - everyone who has left has left because Scientology kept hurting THEM. It has to be personal.

Otherwise - there is no reason to change their BELIEFS. All religions are based on Belief. We somehow want to believe in something greater than ourselves.

By the way - "having to believe in something" is a button Ron the Nut found in the majority of everyone. El Con the fat turd - exploited that button. Other religions do it too.

I don't think you can burst anyone's Scientological bubble until they have too many losses in Scientology. Even with the losses of MAGNITUDE - some of those bubble dwellers will sink with that sinking rust bucket - Scientology.

Really - I don't care if they want to "believe" - let them go bankrupt and crazy "being Scientologist's" - the loneliest religion in the WORLD.

I want to keep newbies from going in and getting destroyed.

So target the book sellers and body routers - the few ignorant dissemination goons dribbling their Diamental books on the street.

Keep Suppressing Scientology.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I find myself experiencing internal stress because I agree with something the COS does. Even if you don't agree with this message I think we all have experienced a similar phenomenon.

I dammed sure don't want to change my beliefs because of Scn, but I find myself feeling uncomfortable agreeing with them.

Any suggestions?

I'm just responding to what I quoted and not the rest of your message.

It seems to me that to obsessively negate everything someone says is (to a first approximation) as bad as obsessively agreeing with it. If a wise man says something sensible and Hubbard quotes it, that doesn't by itself render it senseless. I'm not suggesting wading through Hubbard's garbage to find the occasional nugget of non-garbage, but don't beat yourself up because you found something sensible there.

Similarly, not everything the cult does is totally nutso.

Paul
 
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