Broken or deferred dreams

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I had wanted to do or be certain things and found that some of this was scoffed at in CofS. Since I was a fervent member, I ended up not doing these things. Now, I'm not saying that I would have gone and gotten this training- understand, when I was 18, I was getting no help from my folks and had to figure out the big bad world myself. Who knows what I would have done since I was more or less on my own? But still, I had a dream and it was quashed by CofS. I think other people may have also had goals and dreams that were quashed and scoffed by CofS and I'm inviting you to discuss them, if you like.

Mine was that I really wanted to work with disturbed children. I loved the writings of Torey Hayden and the book No Language but a Cry by Richard D'Ambrosio. When I was in CofS, I never met one single Scn'ist on staff to whom I confided this goal who didn't roll their eyes and scoff at it. This should have been a tip off right there as to what kind of place I was dealing with but I didn't get it for the longest time. I mean, if CofS and Scn'ists were what they said they were, wouldn't you think that they'd at least say something like "Hey, you could do this or this process." I mean, it would still have been Scn-centered but it would have been consistent at least. But no, everyone thought this was a terrible idea. That somehow this was wrong or bad. Like what- these children should have been tossed away? I mean, jeez, WTF?

This has been on my mind for years, and I always managed to kind of push this to the back of my mind because of the discouragement but yes, it's something I thought of doing that was roundly negated and naysayed by CofS. I wonder how many other people had ideas and goals and dreams that were not illegal or unethical or immoral- just things they wanted to do or achieve or be or think- that were similarly treated?

The phrase "the road not taken" may apply here. BUT, while I am very aware of all the stuff people didn't get to do because they were immersed in CofS, on this thread I was kind of looking for dreams that were ridiculed and discouraged as opposed to things we didn't have time to do because we were too busy slaving on staff or stuck in the org or AO doing services all the time. God knows there's zillions of those, too.
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think anyone that joined the SO at a young age and stayed for several years has had this happen.
Mine was a real education.
 

Telepathetic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree,most people had their plans derailed. I wanted to be an artist and also wanted to join Vista and work with the poor. In fact, I left college to join staff.

For me the reason was, that I considered myself un-desciplined and to be honest, I was. But now I realized that perhaps it was just that I was immature,going through a phase and would have,well,grown up, sooner or later.

That's a very noble goal you had Fluffy. All of us were ridiculed for having "other fish to fry." Yes, I remember those "eyes rolling up." In that group only the fanatic survives.

What we need to do now is, fire up that grill! :D

TP
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I do think that the cult doesn't like anything that a person could do that would take time away from the cult, for sure. On this career avocation stuff, though, it seemed that if I was telling them I was getting an office job or this or that, that it was no big deal to them. But let me describe working with disturbed children, and the sneering would commence. I think because of the "psych connection"...
 

Telepathetic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I do think that the cult doesn't like anything that a person could do that would take time away from the cult, for sure. On this career avocation stuff, though, it seemed that if I was telling them I was getting an office job or this or that, that it was no big deal to them. But let me describe working with disturbed children, and the sneering would commence. I think because of the "psych connection"...

Exactly,the,"those who should not be mentioned connection."

The "church" does not deal with the "handicapped" or "insane" so what the hell is society suppose to do with them, euthanasia? One wonders,if the church had enough influence in the policies of nations. Lots of PR "tech" though, would be used:wink2:

Back in 1983 I was in a position were I had to deal with the staff. One particular staff member confided in me that he did not really want Scio. to run the world because it reminded him of Communism and Fascsim. Even back then I could not disagree with him and yet I stayed till 2006. :omg:

TP
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
I had a real passion for law. I was working in CCHR and as my contract ended I started to look into going to university to study law. I got the prospectus and other literature I needed to enrol.

During the intensive "re-sign your next contract" stage I explained with great sincerity how I wanted to go to university to study law. I even offered this in an "on-purpose" way - a CCHR trained lawyer, what an asset, blah, blah, blah.

I was talked out of this by my seniors as I was "more use to the game" staying in CCCHR, at the coal face. Kind of short sighted on their part.

They "won", I did not go to university to study law.
 

Telepathetic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I had a real passion for law. I was working in CCHR and as my contract ended I started to look into going to university to study law. I got the prospectus and other literature I needed to enrol.

During the intensive "re-sign your next contract" stage I explained with great sincerity how I wanted to go to university to study law. I even offered this in an "on-purpose" way - a CCHR trained lawyer, what an asset, blah, blah, blah.

I was talked out of this by my seniors as I was "more use to the game" staying in CCCHR, at the coal face. Kind of short sighted on their part.

They "won", I did not go to university to study law.

How dare you consider screwing up the QSH stat for the week!

Remember 'they' can only look as far as next Thursday:wink2:

TP
 

Wisened One

Crusader
There was a lot of things I wanted to be at the time I had joined Staff....but not sure if I would've successfully persued them even if I didn't join Staff/Scn or not...
 

owl

Patron with Honors
I had wanted to do or be certain things and found that some of this was scoffed at in CofS. Since I was a fervent member, I ended up not doing these things. Now, I'm not saying that I would have gone and gotten this training- understand, when I was 18, I was getting no help from my folks and had to figure out the big bad world myself. Who knows what I would have done since I was more or less on my own? But still, I had a dream and it was quashed by CofS. I think other people may have also had goals and dreams that were quashed and scoffed by CofS and I'm inviting you to discuss them, if you like.

Mine was that I really wanted to work with disturbed children. I loved the writings of Torey Hayden and the book No Language but a Cry by Richard D'Ambrosio. When I was in CofS, I never met one single Scn'ist on staff to whom I confided this goal who didn't roll their eyes and scoff at it. This should have been a tip off right there as to what kind of place I was dealing with but I didn't get it for the longest time. I mean, if CofS and Scn'ists were what they said they were, wouldn't you think that they'd at least say something like "Hey, you could do this or this process." I mean, it would still have been Scn-centered but it would have been consistent at least. But no, everyone thought this was a terrible idea. That somehow this was wrong or bad. Like what- these children should have been tossed away? I mean, jeez, WTF?

This has been on my mind for years, and I always managed to kind of push this to the back of my mind because of the discouragement but yes, it's something I thought of doing that was roundly negated and naysayed by CofS. I wonder how many other people had ideas and goals and dreams that were not illegal or unethical or immoral- just things they wanted to do or achieve or be or think- that were similarly treated?

The phrase "the road not taken" may apply here. BUT, while I am very aware of all the stuff people didn't get to do because they were immersed in CofS, on this thread I was kind of looking for dreams that were ridiculed and discouraged as opposed to things we didn't have time to do because we were too busy slaving on staff or stuck in the org or AO doing services all the time. God knows there's zillions of those, too.

if i had gotten more involved, i wouldn't have been able to do a lot of things i wanted to do. they didn't want me to go to university, they thought it was dumb. i wouldn'tve been able to do any of my hobbies or dreams.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
It's true. I always tried to ration my time when I was in, after I left that one place where I was staff (they expelled me for leaving and I got it overturned, thinking falsely that this was an anomaly and that the organization was mostly good)- and because of that, I was able to do things I wanted to do. If I'd stayed on staff, there'd have been no time.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Exactly,the,"those who should not be mentioned connection."

The "church" does not deal with the "handicapped" or "insane" so what the hell is society suppose to do with them, euthanasia? One wonders,if the church had enough influence in the policies of nations. Lots of PR "tech" though, would be used:wink2:

Back in 1983 I was in a position were I had to deal with the staff. One particular staff member confided in me that he did not really want Scio. to run the world because it reminded him of Communism and Fascsim. Even back then I could not disagree with him and yet I stayed till 2006. :omg:

TP

I remember steering people away from Scn when I was in CofS, too, probably having a somewhat similar idea as that staff member you mention. And it troubled me.


I found this attitude re the disabled so surprising, too. Because to me, they seemed to present this ideal of being pan determined, making the world a better place. I would have thought this would include not throwing out disturbed children or other people with disabilities. Imagine if no one listened to Steven Hawking or gave him a chance at higher education because of his disability! We'd have really missed out.

And taking a wider Scientological point of view (because you all know that I rarely tire of reminding people that I'm still a Scn'ist by creed, though fervently ex cult), I would say that even if one's work with a disturbed or handicapped child only went so far in this life, wouldn't one be helping set them up so that NEXT life would be better?

I'm sure I've heard Scn'ists decry the psychiatric institutions that warehoused people and did not help them. So if one doesn't work with the disturbed, then what's left-- warehousing and ignoring them. That's so inconsistent, but then again, that's how the cult is.

And anyway, side note- in my research I've found that even if you go back to the 50s, psych wards and mental hospitals didn't just warehouse and dump patients. They tried to help them. Sometimes they failed, sometimes there were abuses, sometimes methods they tried were not so good, but point is, even a couple generations ago, patients weren't being warehoused and dumped as a general practice.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Sallydance,

Your dream was a good one, IMO, not that it's up to anyone to pass judgment. But it's a shame, nonetheless, that membership in CofS would result in someone losing a goal. It's hypocritical, too, since they tell everyone that they want people to do better in life and that goals have a special part in a person's case.
 
I would have thought this would include not throwing out disturbed children or other people with disabilities. Imagine if no one listened to Steven Hawking or gave him a chance at higher education because of his disability! We'd have really missed out.

Not actually in his case. ALS didn't hit him until he was well into grad school. Nor did the crippling effects develop rapidly in his case. He was just your typical superbrilliant geek whose very existence wholly invalidated the accplishments of his fellow brilliant, but not AS brilliant, grad students. [This latter as per some of his peers later comments to this effect.] :coolwink:

Part of what makes his case medically interesting is how long he has had it and how slowly it has developed in him.

My mother had it also and like Dr. Hawking was a longterm sufferer, although nowhere near as long as Hawking.


Mark A. Baker
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I watched a staff member here go downhill because of Lou Gehrig's disease. He was on amends and could no longer paint the walls for his amends project. He was given very little help or understanding. He slid toward his death very fast. I remember the unholy think round about that he was downstat or had a service fac. I cringe. Its so chilling it freezes me to recall it. When one of the local OTs was dying of lymphoma only a few visited much. .

On another level I have seen mental illness be dealt with appallingly. Especially at Flag where there is a terror of bad PR from failed cases. Inept MAAs are ordered to offload anyone who looks like trouble brewing. The reason an Inrospection Rd even exits today is because the nature of Scientology causes a person to look inward. It had to develop this unusual remedy to handle the wrong indications passed round between staff or pcs. Inval, eval and wrong WHYs.

I'd seen more than one bright eyed and bushy tailed young person leave their entreprneurial winning life and join the SO. I could see the gleam in their eyes get duller on repeated visits to Flag. One young 18 year old girl got very robotic. She had no clothes any more. Gorgeous girl from Miami who'd had a small business. All she could do was comb her hair and her words did not make sense to me anymore. This was my worst memory. She had spent 8 months on a Survivial Rundown co-audit and something was very very wrong. Her skin was looking sallow. Her brother a year older joined staff and later became her senior. He was cold to her as a downstat. His ego was all puffy. I wanted to rescue her so bad. When I first met her she was making 40 K a year selling hand made copper music boxes for a WISE couple. She gave it up to save the planet.
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hatsphepsut,

Horrible, just horrible. Being on staff is soul deadening, for sure. It's slavery. Indentured servitude. This is, of course, extremely bad for people. Thinking about what you said about the nature of Scn causes people to look inward. I think that's true-- people in Scn end up with what Catholics have sometimes called "scruples" which is a spiritual illness where one becomes obsessed and paranoid about sins they may be committing. It's introversion.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13640a.htm

And the thing is, Hubbard always repeatedly inveighed against introversion. IIRC, it's one of the things he had against meditation. You'd get introverted, he thought.

I think there could be a couple things at play. One being that if you take ANYBODY into a slavery cultic milieu- whether or not there's an ideology to go with it- it's going to screw them up. The other being that too much of Scn ideology involves what is the person doing wrong. Of course people are works in progress and Scn is about self improvement but that shouldn't mean beating oneself up.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Not actually in his case. ALS didn't hit him until he was well into grad school. Nor did the crippling effects develop rapidly in his case. He was just your typical superbrilliant geek whose very existence wholly invalidated the accplishments of his fellow brilliant, but not AS brilliant, grad students. [This latter as per some of his peers later comments to this effect.] :coolwink:

Part of what makes his case medically interesting is how long he has had it and how slowly it has developed in him.

My mother had it also and like Dr. Hawking was a longterm sufferer, although nowhere near as long as Hawking.


Mark A. Baker

Very interesting, I hadn't known that. I am very sorry about your Mom, too.
 

uncle sam

Silver Meritorious Patron
I like this thread!

Great thread Fluffy!!!!
It has been 40 years since I met and joined the cos. It has been the last 15 years that I have engaged in activities that I consider "on purpose" for me. And "yes" my activities are all centered around helping people-just like my mother had. She was the smartest and best person I have ever had met or even read about. Helping others is always the best choice-of course there are so many ways to do that-the game becomes what fits you best-that meets and uses one's own individual talents and skills. Scn was dev-t. Scn imho lacks sufficient meat to really help others.
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
I remember steering people away from Scn when I was in CofS, too, probably having a somewhat similar idea as that staff member you mention. And it troubled me.
I faced something similar. One of my (far too many) wake up calls was dealing with a sweet, lovely and, by far most importantly, lonely elderly lady who had lost her husband, but owned her own home free and clear and had a bit of retirement funds and income. Oh dear God, I could see the Reges and Vultures circling. (Sorry, the use of "Reges" and "Vultures" is redundant.) I kept her safe, and then I got her out.

Back then, I believed (or at least told myself) that there were people who could handle, and indeed benefit from, Scientology, and there were people who could not -- it was simply too much for them, even on the most gradual gradient. I simply decided that the lady was in the latter category.

It took me awhile to realize that Scientology, as a whole, was not good for anyone -- including myself.

Fluffy - I suspect you and I might agree on the following. The trap was, and is, that parts of the basic tech was good and useful. To this day, I think the Comm Course, the Pro TRs, and Upper Indoc TRs were beneficial. (Yes, even commanding the ashtray, if one understood what one was doing and why.) The value of being "interested" vs. "interesting." I still sometimes find it beneficial to remind myself to "get my TRs in." The concept of "Clear" -- which is no less ridiculous, and no less potentially useful, as the concepts of the Id, Ego and Superego as a way of conceptualizing the mind.

Scientology wouldn't be much of a trap if all of the bait was putrid crap.

The irony is that I was far better at protecting people from the detrimental effects of Scientology when I was in the Church than I have been outside the Church.
 

Been Done Had

Patron with Honors
I faced something similar. One of my (far too many) wake up calls was dealing with a sweet, lovely and, by far most importantly, lonely elderly lady who had lost her husband, but owned her own home free and clear and had a bit of retirement funds and income. Oh dear God, I could see the Reges and Vultures circling. (Sorry, the use of "Reges" and "Vultures" is redundant.) I kept her safe, and then I got her out.

Back then, I believed (or at least told myself) that there were people who could handle, and indeed benefit from, Scientology, and there were people who could not -- it was simply too much for them, even on the most gradual gradient. I simply decided that the lady was in the latter category.

It took me awhile to realize that Scientology, as a whole, was not good for anyone -- including myself.

Fluffy - I suspect you and I might agree on the following. The trap was, and is, that parts of the basic tech was good and useful. To this day, I think the Comm Course, the Pro TRs, and Upper Indoc TRs were beneficial. (Yes, even commanding the ashtray, if one understood what one was doing and why.) The value of being "interested" vs. "interesting." I still sometimes find it beneficial to remind myself to "get my TRs in." The concept of "Clear" -- which is no less ridiculous, and no less potentially useful, as the concepts of the Id, Ego and Superego as a way of conceptualizing the mind.

Scientology wouldn't be much of a trap if all of the bait was putrid crap.

The irony is that I was far better at protecting people from the detrimental effects of Scientology when I was in the Church than I have been outside the Church.

Man. Wow. Good post, stirred up a lot of mixed memories. I saw people get involved in the church, get some and get gang regged and sucked dry. People for whom you know it will not end well. And usually it didn't.

But when it's YOUR stat, YOUR commission, the person does not matter. And when your in a position of authority over a public, and you unload on them with the stock arguments on why they need to flow power in the form of money particles to the org, and as non-staff and knowing the urgency of clearing the planet, they are already out ethics and at the very least can contribute to the org's survival and when they are OT they will be able to postulate money and cover the loans, that outflow equals inflow, etc. etc. etc.

You reg someone by making the feel guilty, and once you get the payment, f*ck them. Now they're the problem of the advance scheduling reg.

It's Thursday at two. What do you have for me?
 

Kha Khan

Patron Meritorious
Levels of Hell

But when it's YOUR stat, YOUR commission, the person does not matter.
This sentence brings up an interesting issue.

There is at least a small moral difference between being concerned about "your stat" and being concerned about "your commission." The difference is relevant to the level of Hell to which each Scientologist and Ex-Scientologist will, or should, be assigned should they (including myself) make insufficient amends.

Concern about a mere "stat" and concern about a "commission" differ not in their effect or in their intent to do a certain act or accomplish a certain result. No, the difference between concern about a mere "stat" and concern about a "commission" is the difference of motivation.

To have the intent and motive to merely get the "stat" means that one was, or at least may have been, motivated solely by the greatest good of the greatest number of dynamics, "to clear the planet," to save mankind. It was, in its own perverted, Fourth Dynamic, authoritarian, deluded, hubristic, ends justify the means way -- altruistic.

Ah, but when I hear "commission," I see evidence of a different motive. Pure, unadulterated, First Dynamic greed.

And evidence that perhaps, just perhaps, a person will or should be assigned to a slightly lower level of Hell.

There were people who I loved and cared about in Scientology. And people who, if I'm honest, I've come to loath and despise. But the FSMs....
 
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