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Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by mockingbird, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Allright , I was talking to a veteran ex and critic the other day and wrote that I was shocked no one has prior to now has analyzed Hubbard's doctrine and spotted the rhetorical techniques and then seen what they are there for then categorized them , made that a routine part of thought and remembering and reading them ( or just recalling a few hundred basic doctrine from memory ) then swept them away and seen what statements remain and by recalling them verbatim simply looked at and memorized a few hundred quotes from Marcus Aurelius , Lao Tzu , Confucius , Crowley and others to see what the enticing bait parts of the doctrine were and the other parts then zeroed in on the others and seen what they do and where they were stolen from as it really is all stolen and repackaged .

    He said the figuring it out and then recognizing and sweeping it away part is the hard part . Many are still part Freezoner or indie for many decades and confused what worked and did not . Well I assumed many like me have within a couple months figured none of it worked in truth and all is a fraud - then learned through hundreds of hours what was hypnotism , how it worked and what was rhetoric as classic ethos , pathos , logos and sublime writing and unusual turns of phrases , contradictions , repetition and other basic techniques . and how the unconscious is manipulated and psychological defense mechanisms are manipulated to have them help the mind control . And cognitive dissonance and the fundamental attribution error etc. etc.

    I was spoiled in having and Jon Atack having done decades of research to cut the con down to a far more manageable size for me to start at .So I will always have profound appreciation for that and knowing they have helped thousands more escape the con by their efforts . Not to mention the wonderful and lovable Tory Magoo with her great friendly heartwarming videos to help us all through a dark and horrifying time in coming out of the cult and the truly heroic Gerry Armstrong for all his efforts including revealing the affirmations which are key to my research and the Rosetta stone of Scientology and his deep exposure of the SP doctrine as repackaged Nazism . These heroes and others saved me decades of work and let my exit counseling move at light speed compared to many others .

    I was lucky that my mentors introduced me to varying and compelling ideas on some points which required rehabilitating my own critical thinking to find answers and that led me to dive into logical fallacies and that is key to see how Hubbard implants them in his doctrine to control thought habitually covertly as conditioning for life .

    I realized in talking online to hundreds of people I keep telling the same " the celebs are all attacking the attacker because of the ad hominem group of implants and the cult has to do this because of this embedded command and ... " and what I really need to do is show YOU guys what the tools to recognize and spot this stuff routinely and effortlessly are and let you look at them and see if they are correct and have all the right parts laid out or not .

    Simple , right ? :coolwink:

    Actually , with the right tools it is . Give me a chance and bear with me - I promise anything I give you will be shorter and more true than GAT I and II .

    Okay first I want to refer to some very short videos for you to watch they have key ideas very simply explained . Do not just take any of this on faith and remember I do not endorse everything in these videos just use them to get basic concepts for comparison .

    And I will be telling where Hubbard stole some ideas from as seeing how others used them gives clues what he intended too . You should at least read Basic Introduction to Hypnotic Induction before this starts :

    But first a video for consideration :How To Use Embedded Commands by Dantalion Jones
    and to compliment it NLP Embedded Commands and suggestions :

    They explain in simple language that embedded commands are hidden covert statements in theory placed in the subconscious of the victim and they require a delivery mechanism - a speech or writing to be placed in and they are in need of repetition to establish a pattern in the victim's mind and they use variation stating the command or idea in slightly different ways to have it click in the victim's mind and change behavior . The subconscious is in truth a metaphor and not an actual physical structure but it works for describing hypnotic and behavioral phenomena .

    Milton Erickson saw the repetition as needed and the variation also as helping get the technique to set the command and Hubbard uses both tremendously and far beyond what most could conceive of . Note :I NEVER recommend NLP as a practice or therapy as it is a fraud and unethical . It is a cult on training wheels as it tells the trainers at least that they are covertly influencing and manipulating where Scientology has many more layers of lies to penetrate and so helps through the commonalities see what Hubbard was doing under the surface . It is still a school for sociopaths but they know it where Scientology makes sociopaths covertly .

    More in the next installment .:coolwink:
  2. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I think some others have also done this, though.
  3. Intentionally Blank

    Intentionally Blank Scientology Widow

    Love the title this thread. (Going back to read now .... )

  4. Intentionally Blank

    Intentionally Blank Scientology Widow

    Ok, that was scary. Not even thinking about scientology and mind control -but even just considering the everyday marketing that goes on around us. Radio. TV. Etc.

    So - what if there are competing commands? What if one person / set of commands is embedding "you love water" "swimming is fun" "let's go to the shore" and another person / set of commands is embedding "water is dangerous" "sharks will get you" "stay inland"? Who wins?

  5. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Maybe one's own experience, and that isn't always the right answer either . . .:unsure:
  6. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    Another view

    Your brain on pseudoscience: the rise of popular neurobollocks
  7. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yeah , I have said NLP is a fraud and the subconscious is a metaphor . It is to help explain- like if someone said my heart says yes but my head says no -we know it is not literal but still can understand . My honesty is meant to make it so you just listen and do not fall for pseudo science . Some hypnotism deniers fight tooth and claw to NOT listen EVER . Hmm , got bias ? :coolwink:

    The important thing is that Hubbard's persuasion did in fact work to some degree on some people and if you listen to me you may agree but if you do not you are rejecting the idea you dare not learn to understand . The ideas he used came to some degree from hypnotism as well documented in his own writings ( see Never Believe a Hypnotist by Jon Atack for many examples ) and they are repackaged in NLP into a pseudo science to covertly influence ( sound familiar ) but the language is more up front in that persuasion by deception is the intent . Look they try like Hubbard to do the same thing but are willing to come out and say it so you can look at them and more easily understand him . They are more honest liars .:duh:

    Yeah , I was confused at first but quickly figured out their game so just check out what they TRY and see how Hubbard TRIED the exact sane tactics on YOU .

    So any way , the important things to get on embedded commands are that they are statements in Hubbard's doctrine intended to by repetition and variation achieve behavioral changes covertly in cult members . That is it - in theory your mind forms patterns of similar information on themes and topics and by giving over and over the same or varied ideas and statements they become a conditioned part of your behavior and you do not even think about them - you just do them .

    This to some fits the slogans and long repeated stable data Scientologists turn to over and over time after time . They are habitual on purpose by Hubbard .
    Hubbard had number of times over equals certainty - that is repetition which cult members get loads of for the study " tech" and KSW and tons of other basic ideas . This includes OW write ups and many other things . Remember" results in the students own case..." that is the behavioral change that indicates sufficient repetition for the embedded command to be successful.

    See , Hubbard got the idea from hypnosis and it is simple - hide statements in a delivery mechanism - in this case a written reference or tape , then repeat them and vary them and keep doing it until you get a behavioral response you desire .That is embedded commands . You can call it conditioning or thought reform or anything - I do not care as long as you understand the idea and consider it thoroughly in looking at what Hubbard's "technology" did to us .

    It is a fundamental he used over and over : he loved repetition and this is where it fits in .Next I will take on a couple more simple ideas on persuasion .
  8. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Okay , for Blanky's question the best answer is to find a school or study of persuasion that seems understandable and not fraudulent and look at it for yourself .
    I also strongly suggest learning anything even basic about logical fallacies and the most basic rhetoric you can and critical thinking and skepticism and scientific method . Gib posted some very simple sites that detail that rhetoric - classic style - consists of ethos ( authority) , logos ( logic or logical seeming ideas ) and pathos ( emotional influence ) . These are also names of fallacy calsses . Some fallacies are these being used to influence thought . The ideas overlap and compliment each other - a speech can have pathos and I can fall for an unseen appeal to emotion as they are two names for the same phenomena and error in reason .

    Here is a quote from an earlier post at ESMB on rhetoric :Here is a small collection of quotes from a very simple site Gib was kind enough to find and share :

    I also need to mention sublime writing which is intended to influence the audience into ecstasy and that is a trance state . Hubbard studied all this under Dean Wilbur and it is well documented he intended to use these methods . Hubbard stole many ideas and statements knowing what they had done to earlier audiences and then used them repackaged to influence his victims. He knew we mistakenly lower our guard mentally and are not skeptical or critical and independent when we are in certain states that can be encouraged by sublime writing . All the things he wrote in the art series on audiences and achieving an emotional impact and art not being able to be too original are from his study of sublime writing . They are all stolen ideas on influence . I would not be too shocked if they were all on the Dean's course . Here is Hubbard's letter to the Dean :
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  9. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    It's not really as clever as it sounds (e.g. tone of voice).

    It's really more of an art of deliberately inserting lies into a bunch of acceptable truths so that it is all accepted AS A PACKAGE DEAL.

    The subject/target accepts it as a package.

    There are some people (minority of the population) who are chronic/habitual liars that are very good at doing this.
    They usually avoid total bold-faced lies and use this trickery of inserting their lies into truths as a package.
  10. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Okay , now for another element of influence : pacing and leading . In influence pacing is saying things that are easily agreeable - that means we can see them or both already believe them and leading is saying things you do not already believe . It is a method of influence Hubbard used extensively and in many works .

    Paces are to get you to relax and let your guard down and build trust . You can accept things from some one if you can see they tell the truth and you can relax more as they keep telling the truth . It is human nature . They can add in other things and keep telling easily agreed on things and your guard may not spring back up if they do not jump too far too fast as your general attitude may stay accepting and not have you zero in on anything to doubt and examine closely . Studying rhetoric or critical thinking or skepticism or logical fallacies very deeply and integrating any or all of them in your routine thinking can to some degree counter this but I always caution against overconfidence on resisting influence .

    Working in leads slowly gets you to gradually change beliefs , ideas and behavior when this works . Here is a video on this :

    I need to include one of the most important ideas on how Hubbard tried to influence people , he used multiple methods constantly simultaneously . In some schools this is called stacking . You can use a fallacy to influence and an embedded command and repetition . He often combined from rhetoric ethos , pathos and logos in the same reference . And there is far more but I will first show building blocks and describe them before we get deep into that .Trust me if you get the basic ideas well they make the combined and more complex ones a breeze especially if you did a lot in Scientology .
  11. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Some chronic liars follow this behavior sequence (lying is only one part of the pattern)

    T - trigger that makes the person angry or paranoid
    O - obsession every day about it (no constructive ability to resolve)
    C - compulsion to "get even" and waiting for an opportunity
    D - destruction done when opportunity is found (this can take months)
    L - lying about it (covering up or having someone else to do the dirty work)

    IMO, it's a type of OCD and narcisists do this.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  12. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor


    You are still writing in a didactic style. You talk down to people. Your original post of this thread has only one sentence for the first paragraph, but it is a 147 word sentence! It is mostly incomprehensible and so is a lot of the rest of the post, although the gist of it can be grasped. You want a bob each way on NLP.
  13. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    Here's an interesting bit of information on the power of repetition (the 'we use only 10% of our brain' myth)

    "..Does anyone really believe this myth anymore?

    Apparently so. For example, in 2012, a survey of school teachers in Britain and The Netherlands found that 48 per cent and 46 per cent, respectively, endorsed the myth. Last year, a US survey by the Michael J Fox Foundation for Parkinson’s Research found that 65 percent of people believed in the myth..."
  14. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    How much do we use?

    Why, all of it, I think - we just don't know it . . . ?
  15. eldritch cuckoo

    eldritch cuckoo brainslugged reptilian

    Mockingbird, you should read up moar on propaganda. I think you might have neglected this, in relative terms, compared with other themes.
    But as things go, if you're unaware of the full definition - e.g. an educated layman's view, that's what time allows -, you can't avoid the style entirely, when it comes up, prompted by Co$-training.
    It might be the case already that you have extensive knowledge of propaganda, as I write this hypothetically, also for others who are decompressing...
    But you see the remarks...
    I can do with your posts as they are, I'm merely reacting to your declared high aspirations - to reach a maximum of readers, to disseminate the information as widely as possible. That implicates to make the texts as readable as possible.
    As strictly as you have disavowed and thrashed all of Hub's ideas, to let go of the attitude that has been burnt in during all the time you valued and pursued them, is another thing. Or better yet, to accept that it is there, to take hold of it, to bring it up from the subconscious, the unseen regions, for cognitive scrutiny, and regard it.
    Propaganda, as every other piece of the mindfuck, has been there before Hubs, and it is used in all cults, disseminating all communication (in the worst cases, the extremists). And while Hubs has demonized psychology and indirectly neurology, and "other (spiritual) practices", for some people so much that they have significant difficulties to approach these topics and can't bypass their deep-settled unease about them and at the same time can't put down the hunch how worthless they are, propaganda as a concept but has been barely mentioned. So this topic might be a tad more approachable, accessible for ex Scientologists, in that it remained fairly unscathed by the Dear Leader(s). In the end, an intense read up on this theme might explain about as much as any intense study of undue influence, coercive narcissists, abusive sociopaths, general psychology, crowd psychology, hypnosis, rhetorics, or NLP (which is still useful as a collection of actual persuasion and coercion techniques, as exaggerated as the claims/expectations/promises are).
    I think it might be a missing puzzle piece for you, with the logic going as following: your style might be propagandistic, it might be this what annoys some readers, and if you really seek to get rid of it, you first have to know what a propagandistic style actually is.

    "Miss a beat, you lose the rhythm..."
    (Van Halen - Right Now; 1:44)
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  16. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    I don't think mockingbird gets it, no matter how many times you or someone else points these things out. Many are trying to be kind about it, myself included, because we know how important it is for newbie exes to make their way out and think their way through things. However, it's hard to read posts written with run on sentences that appear to state that no one else here has ever had a clue except the poster and a select few deemed to be Gods.

    Perhaps some visual cues are needed in response to mockingbird's posts. Here are few that came to mind after reading your reply to him:




  17. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    If you have read mockingbirds post then go to youtube and search Obama's speeches and listen to them.

    You will find the very technique described in the videos in his speeches.

    Especially his campaign speeches, that is how he got into office.

    Don't forget to click LIKE at the bottom of this post.:)
  18. apple

    apple Patron Meritorious

    After reading your thread I You Tubed NLP and watched examples of it being applied. It doesñt work all the time and not for everyone but it does work on some people sometime. This may answer a question of mine ...why do some people become active in scientology and some people do not? Why do some people stay only for a short time and do others stay for most of their lives? I appreciate of you bringing NLP to my attention and I may use it or suggest its use for my political candidates.
  19. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I'm somewhat empathetic to wordy types, as you can imagine. My thought on this is that Mockingbird is trying to figure this stuff out. I think he, like so many others, is heartbroken and betrayed. Seems like he just wants to make sense of the mindfuck. Being out of CofS, we're all free to doubt (and indeed M has commented on doubt) and to disagree and to do what Hub would have called "figure figure" without anyone pink sheeting or KRing him or sending the person to ethics.

    It can feel like being lectured, I know.

    My point of disagreement is the adulation of others he expresses. It's not true, for example, that Arnie and Jon Atack are the only ones who performed certain analyses. M also has a habit of letting pundits tell him what to think. To me, it's like exchanging one cult for another.

    He's not the only one, though. And, like I said, it's all probably his way of crawling out from under years of Scn indoctrination and mistreatment. Isn't he a more recent ex than some of us?
  20. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Degraded being made it 147 words I think it was. Before I had read his (db's) post I had actually started counting the words myself then lost interest, but it sure was a long sentence. Starting a sentence with the word 'Alright' gets up my nose too, and in some respects the way mb writes can be creepily reminiscent of elcon tubolard himself, and the peculiar punctuation is yet another issue.

    Well, I'm on a roll now so I might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb. If I were writing a blog, I certainly wouldn't begin by telling my audience that I had no formal training in what I was going to be writing about and that I had dropped out of school with virtually no education at all. I don't think that will encourage people to give what one is saying much creedence and is probably best left unsaid IMO.

    But I didn't spend 25 years in the cult, hand over any money to the bastards or have to disconnect from or have anyone I loved disconnect from me, so all in all, compared to the grief and anguish suffered by many on this board and elsewhere, I got off comparatively lightly. Others here have a hell of a lot of decompressing to do yet I know.

    My £0.02
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015