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Candy Swanson about Hubbard.

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Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
. . . <snip> . . . One only need to compare Hubbard's behaviour with his own scriptures.

Oh, but L Ron Hubbard's inner virtue is already on display in some of his scripture, the OSA Network Orders being but one example, Fair Game another. Still, like you style; you're more particular and organised in your approach than I am.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Dear Veda,

I don't believe I derailed this thread.

In retrospect, I don't think you did either. :)

The entry point, in my experience, to an discussion with a Scientologist, is to use the scientology scriptures to get them to look at and re-consider ideas that they have accepted and no longer inspect.

Candy's videos showed classic cognitive disonance.

  • Hubbard was wonderful - I tried to hide from him by pinning myself against the wall.
  • Mary Sue was wonderful - she wrote to the IRS to try to get Alan busted

And she gave the classic scientologist blather about using the correct amount of force to be OT.

I questioned her, hoping she would reply, discuss and consider whether LRH was a virtuous man as per the scientology scriptures. I asked her how she would have felt, given the impact that he had upon her, if he had pounded the bannister at her. The Scientology virtues are directly related to this point.

I believe all of my posts about the HRD referred back to Candy's videos to keep the discussion on-topic.

If someone asked me a question about the HRD, I replied, as it is only good manners to do so, while also referring back to the videos and what Candy said.

I'd love to discuss the virtues with Candy as they relate to LRH.

My other intention by quoting the virtues in full, was to point out to those who admire Hubbard, just how lacking in virtue he was. That is my point of view and I felt moved to post it to counter Candy's point of view.

One only need to compare Hubbard's behaviour with his own scriptures.

Unfortunately, Scientologists seem to have an almost unlimited supply of justifications for why Hubbard said one thing and did another, or why he said one thing, then said its opposite.

One way to occasionally surmount this, IMO, is to describe the Overt (visible)/Covert design of the doctrine of Scientology.

For those not thoroughly - and happily - lost in the Hubbard labyrinth, the Overt/Covert ("Onion") explanation of Scientology, which also acknowledges that there is good in Scientology, including good people, can sometimes help to loosen the Hubbardian mind-glue.
 
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Great quotes!

Thanks Veda! Those quotes were great! Don't miss them, anybody! :thumbsup:

I especially liked these words from Babaji:

Mahatma Gandhi:

"I cannot think of permanent enmity between man and man, and believing
as I do in the theory of reincarnation, I live in the hope that if not
in this birth, in some other birth I shall be able to hug all of
humanity in friendly embrace." :happydance:

I love that thought of being able to hug all of humanity in a friendly embrace.

Upon review, I don't think anybody de-railed...I think it's just a continuing conversation, as will do on these threads...sometimes meander a bit, but usually very interesting byways and backwaters when they do! It's all good! :)

I have a slightly different take on the more traditional thought of reincarnation.

To me, it's not many different lives, with time outs in between for reflections, punishment, redemption or whatever (depending on religious orientation), it's more like one long, endless lifetime with different chapters or phases or experiences of existence (in multiple universes, maybe? No sense that we're always stuck here). The most apt analogy I can come up with is what it's like for an actor looking back over a long career, remembering having played this part or another in various plays...you created and fleshed out these characterizations in many different places and situations and circumstances, but underneath it all, you have an awareness that it's all you, creating the performances, varied as they might be.

And yes, I'll admit it, you do get tired of playing the ingénue after a while and it's FUN to play a villain every so often, although it takes a lot out of you! :melodramatic: :blush: Something in our human natures that wants to "play the villain" that we must work with to rise above, always, IMHO.

O.K., this is not a de-rail! It's a meander! :D
 
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SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Just had a thought.. Well.. Has been touched upon already in this thread..

About Hubbard's careful rearrangements of the definition for 'victim'.. Unsurprizingly he's out to boggle our minds again!

So.. It's bad to be a 'victim'.. Or rather Hubbard would impress on us that it's bad to complain about it if you are.. A 'shut up and soldier' attitude.. Or even, as I perceive Candy in her videos, being truly oblivious to being 'victimized'.. Just be happy as a 'clam' anyway.

But that's not where I think Hubbard inserted his little subversive 'logic command' in this concept..

It's WHEN.. You are a victim!

It's not when you grow wise to it and start complaining! - It's before that.. When you are completely convinced that Hubbard's con is real and you are a 'dedicated' scientologist and full of hope and hold Hubbard above suspicion of any kind! - When you are fooled hook line and sinker, head over heels and forking over the dough to the registrars, coz' your money in-flow will increase dramatically when you're 'clear' or whatever..

That's when you are a victim!

And that's when you will never agree that you are..

:yes:
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
In retrospect, I don't think you did either. :)



Unfortunately, Scientologists seem to have an almost unlimited supply of justifications for why Hubbard said one thing and did another, or why he said one thing, then said its opposite.

One way to occasionally surmount this, IMO, is to describe the Overt (visible)/Covert design of the doctrine of Scientology.

For those not thoroughly - and happily - lost in the Hubbard labyrinth, the Overt/Covert ("Onion") explanation of Scientology, which also acknowledges that there is good in Scientology, including good people, can sometimes help to loosen the Hubbardian mind-glue.

True. Scientology is so full of contradictions that it is inevitable that a scientologist will hold contradictory beliefs about the subject and key characters like LRH and MSH.

This is the scientology implant - that it is all true, even when it is contradictory. The implant (truthiness of all LRH words) is enforced by obsessive word clearing, repetition, fear of loss of eternity, sleep deprivation, nutrition deprivation, enforced havingness, etc. This results in the scientologist believing everything from LRH is true and right.

LRH, by making himself the "winning valence" for his "slaves" enforced his personality upon his slaves so that they adopted his behaviour. It's all blatantly admitted by LRH in his tech, we just didn't spot that he was doing it to us! :duh:

Someone like Candy, who met LRH and who had, by her own words, a huge impact upon her, knows his behaviour, even if they justify and ignore aspects of his behaviour.

The virtues are "true" for a scientologist because they are LRH source data. They also have the advantage of being common sense and are also a great code for living. She only has to look at them newly, and remember times when Ron behaved without virtue and times when he behaved with virtue, in order for her to have a more balanced opinion of him. She could also ponder upon these LRH words "And above all, you wouldn’t want these people just pretending these things, you would want them to be quite real in their attitudes and to be acting with integrity."

He was not "wonderful", although he clearly filled her with wonder! He was not "OT" using the "correct" amount of force - he was an ignorant slob and a psychotic bully, but he convinced us all he was OT and that his psychotic behaviour was "being OT". We scientologists believed him! :duh:

In my opinion, what he used on her when he charmed her is explained in his "admissions" -

Your psychology is good. You worked to darken your own children. This failure, with them, was only apparent. The evident lack of effectiveness was "ordered." The same psychology works perfectly on everyone else. You use it with great confidence.

Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.
L Ron Hubbard

Hence he charmed (hypnotised) Candy. From the way she behaves in the videos, it is clear that she would respond positively to someone like LRH who charmed her and granted her beingness and validated her independent querkiness.

"Ron is gone, but the con goes on!" Anonymous.

For those who want to read the "virtues" again and judge LRH by them - here's the link http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=545873#post545873
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Just had a thought.. Well.. Has been touched upon already in this thread..

About Hubbard's careful rearrangements of the definition for 'victim'.. Unsurprizingly he's out to boggle our minds again!

So.. It's bad to be a 'victim'.. Or rather Hubbard would impress on us that it's bad to complain about it if you are.. A 'shut up and soldier' attitude.. Or even, as I perceive Candy in her videos, being truly oblivious to being 'victimized'.. Just be happy as a 'clam' anyway.

But that's not where I think Hubbard inserted his little subversive 'logic command' in this concept..

It's WHEN.. You are a victim!

It's not when you grow wise to it and start complaining! - It's before that.. When you are completely convinced that Hubbard's con is real and you are a 'dedicated' scientologist and full of hope and hold Hubbard above suspicion of any kind! - When you are fooled hook line and sinker, head over heels and forking over the dough to the registrars, coz' your money in-flow will increase dramatically when you're 'clear' or whatever..

That's when you are a victim!

And that's when you will never agree that you are..

:yes:

Other insane and criminal cult leaders have made victims out of their followers too as you can see in this reportage about the "Colonia Dignidad".
I saw this film a few weeks ago and was shocked to recognize how similar the mechanisms of control are in Scientology.

"SHORT SYNOPSIS

Ruediger was a child, Aki two months old and Kurt the deputy of the pedophile leader of the sect. In 1961 they came to Chile together with 500 other German sect members and for over 40 years they lived secluded from the rest of the world. The film tells about the attempt to survive as a collective after decades of crimes such as torture and murder. This film depicts the effort to survive as a community after an extreme human tragedy—showing different ways in which the individual copes with the history of the community. These are German stories of displacement, desire, romantic enthusiasm and despair. It is a film about guilt, victimization and coming to terms with them."


I could not find this film on the internet but I will leave a link for everybody who is interested in detailed information about this:

http://www.deutsche-seelen.de/content/index_eng.html

In my opinion this reportage is a must see for everybody who is interested to understand how cult leaders manage to set up perfect control mechanisms in order to change their followers into brainless roboters. And as I mentioned before - it is eerie to see how similar some of the control mechanisms are in Scientology.

best
Markus
 
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auntpat

Patron with Honors
Sweetness and Light

I agree with your understanding of reincarnation. I remember once when I was giving a talk about it to a hall full of people. After my talk one of the audience come up to me, all a dither. "Do you remember your past lives?', she asked. I said . "A few." I replied. "Were you ever somebody really great and special?", she asked. "Of course." I replied, trying to make my eyes as big as hers. "OH,Who" she almost squealed. I calmy looked her in the eyes and replied, "Myself! I have always been myself.". I do believe she was disspointed.

Love and Light to you,
Pat
 

purple haze

Patron with Honors
snipping at my heels, but, I'm way too busy dancing!

Sorry, I've been gone and way too busy. Doesn't seem as though I've missed too much, tho, especially not much in the way of theta.

Thanks for the contributions, Sweet and Terril. VVGIs

LOL at all the rest getting all their knickers in a twist, in their twist about ways! CARRY ON, you fools.

I'll post what's true for me and obviously, you'll tear it up! yay.

I'd like to see you outside of the line up when the BIG ones roll in. Easy to bullshit and take everyone down verbally, but then, are you really creative or just rippers?:melodramatic:
'

Other insane and criminal cult leaders have made victims out of their followers too as you can see in this reportage about the "Colonia Dignidad".
I saw this film a few weeks ago and was shocked to recognize how similar the mechanisms of control are in Scientology.

"SHORT SYNOPSIS

Ruediger was a child, Aki two months old and Kurt the deputy of the pedophile leader of the sect. In 1961 they came to Chile together with 500 other German sect members and for over 40 years they lived secluded from the rest of the world. The film tells about the attempt to survive as a collective after decades of crimes such as torture and murder. This film depicts the effort to survive as a community after an extreme human tragedy—showing different ways in which the individual copes with the history of the community. These are German stories of displacement, desire, romantic enthusiasm and despair. It is a film about guilt, victimization and coming to terms with them."


I could not find this film on the internet but I will leave a link for everybody who is interested in detailed information about this:

http://www.deutsche-seelen.de/content/index_eng.html

In my opinion this reportage is a must see for everybody who is interested to understand how cult leaders manage to set up perfect control mechanisms in order to change their followers into brainless roboters. And as I mentioned before - it is eerie to see how similar some of the control mechanisms are in Scientology.

best
Markus

 

purple haze

Patron with Honors
I agree with your understanding of reincarnation. I remember once when I was giving a talk about it to a hall full of people. After my talk one of the audience come up to me, all a dither. "Do you remember your past lives?', she asked. I said . "A few." I replied. "Were you ever somebody really great and special?", she asked. "Of course." I replied, trying to make my eyes as big as hers. "OH,Who" she almost squealed. I calmy looked her in the eyes and replied, "Myself! I have always been myself.". I do believe she was disspointed.

Love and Light to you,
Pat

Absolutely BRILLIANT, aunt pat! Love it as well as grok it! :happydance:
Love and light and aloha to you too,
purple
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sorry, I've been gone and way too busy. Doesn't seem as though I've missed too much, tho, especially not much in the way of theta.

Thanks for the contributions, Sweet and Terril. VVGIs

LOL at all the rest getting all their knickers in a twist, in their twist about ways! CARRY ON, you fools.

I'll post what's true for me and obviously, you'll tear it up! yay.

I'd like to see you outside of the line up when the BIG ones roll in. Easy to bullshit and take everyone down verbally, but then, are you really creative or just rippers?:melodramatic:
'




Have you read the story of my brother Uwe in the Sea Org? Try to imagine what pain Hubbard caused for Uwe, for my mother, for me and my sister. Then lets talk again ok? I'll continue to post what's true for me.

love to you - poor lost soul.

Markus
 

purple haze

Patron with Honors
Absolutely ADORE you, Sweetnessandlight! :happydance: So happy to have met you through Gary after attending that amazing News/Press conference for the Exes at the Steve Allen Theater last year! We had fun too, when we ate at that French cafe in the Los Feliz area! :thumbsup: You're so gorgeous and what beautiful energy! :clap:

Let's get together soon, now that I'm back for 3 weeks. It's all about bypass the entheta and handle with theta, nowadays. :coolwink:

We enjoyed the Russian-American lifestyle and great positive attitude!:p

I just don't have time to tango with the tangle bunch! Aloha, Candy


Did I do a de-rail? Sorry! :blush: Veda, Candy and Lakey are off galavanting around the upper state having fun visiting and doing their counseling thing...she might not be back on this thread for awhile...if she ever feels the need to respond to any of the criticism of her. I'm not holding my breath. Remember, she didn't post these vids here for people to comment on. She doesn't owe any of us an explanation for anything she remembers, said about it, feels, does, etc. Reality check! :) So we may as well keep talking...before Hatty breaks out her sock puppet! :p



Hey Dee Bee! :) I largely agree with you! But then, one of my college textbooks was "Teaching as a Subversive Activity". :D This is true!

However, in my case it really is a co-creation...not my just imposing my choices on them, including we come up with mutually agreed upon consequences, etc. It's o.k. if this is hard to imagine. Most classrooms are not run this way.

We always start out with the basic school rules that we all have to follow, legally, etc. as a basis ("because I want to keep my job" :D I tell them) and build on that...it takes a long time, usually daily discussions and votes over two weeks or longer.

One good thing about doing this the first of the school year is you get to see the kids in action early on, learn who the natural leaders are, etc. All decisions are made after long discussions...based on their past experiences of what "worked" and what "didn't work" in other classes where they have been in the past.

We aim for consensus (which is mostly impossible), but go with majority rules. We make exceptions for extraordinary cases. For instance, the day one of my student's Dad, who was a cop, was shot on the job (he survived), we voted to temporarily suspend the rules about no cussing outloud, so he could go outside to the playground and pound a tether ball and cuss his head off with no repercussions, until we got the news from the hospital that his Dad was going to be o.k. That was one way he could vent his pain and frustration, without harming himself or anyone, and we all understood, even though that year was one where many of the girls were fierce about no cussing in their space! :ohmy:.

The kids are usually stunned and in awe at being given respect right off the bat, being listened to and asked to make thoughtful decisions. We revisit it throughout the year and adjust what needs to be changed.

We cover fun stuff too, a class motto, a mascot, class jobs, how we keep allocation of work fair, a "secret word" that when uttered by me gains their instant quietude and cooperation when it is REALLY important they focus on me because we have an emergency (California kids are used to earthquake and civil defense drills), how we organize the classroom seating...(I let kids initially choose who they want to be with and where they want their desks to be, within reason (No Stacking!:coolwink:) and I let them sit with their friends until any distractions become a problem for the other students, we get to agreement on all kinds of stuff like that. The kids are usually in awe that a teacher trusts them enough to try out different experiments, but it's all grist for the mill of learning. It wasn't so much about following the rules as it was about creating safe space in our classroom, where everyone could learn and be heard. Hard to do when there is chaos or anarchy or bullying!

About this: "To put this in a very stark way, their cultural "brainwashing" is being used very artfully to get compliance by the teacher. Excellent classrooom management, yes, but manipulation nonetheless, as is a lot of good classroom management." Honey, much of education is all about socialization, but it doesn't have to be a gulag! :happydance:

For much of my career I've worked with groups of kids and young people who are outside the "norm" (not that there is such a thing) in one way or another...English as a second language...multilingual/multicultural...gifted and talented...mainstreamed special needs, etc. I think I was chosen for these so-called "difficult" :duh: assignments because I have a flexible mind that can go anywhere and am highly creative. I have always questioned authority myself. :D

It's a really good thing to create a sort of energetic tribal mentality within and about the group, instilled with a lot of fun and pride, a spirit of play. The best learning takes place when everyone is relaxed with each other but energized by working together. Teaching is an art, not a science. At it's best, it involves a lot of mutual trust, which must be both learned and earned. A classroom is nothing more than a lot of intersecting relationships.

Maybe I should add I've taught all ages of students, from pre-school to University level, and I've been able to start off the school year on a good foot using some age appropriate variation of this general approach with great success. I've been teaching since the 70's. :thumbsup:

P.S. I LOVE Ben Franklin's epitaph!
 

Veda

Sponsor
Sorry, I've been gone and way too busy. Doesn't seem as though I've missed too much, tho, especially not much in the way of theta.

Thanks for the contributions, Sweet and Terril. VVGIs

LOL at all the rest getting all their knickers in a twist, in their twist about ways! CARRY ON, you fools.

I'll post what's true for me and obviously, you'll tear it up! yay.

I'd like to see you outside of the line up when the BIG ones roll in. Easy to bullshit and take everyone down verbally, but then, are you really creative or just rippers?:melodramatic:
'


Please explain what you mean by "outside of the line up when the BIG ones roll in."

Thanks.
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
All Hail Purple Haze

Purple Haze shows a great deal of wisdom and I think has put her Scientology experience in a wonderful perspective.

She's not a victim!

She's not fingerpointing!

She's not dwelling on all the crap!

She looks back with great fondness on meeting Ron Hubbard; being welcomed as an expert on the Apollo; and the cutest memory of all seems to be the tryst with Alan. Glory days!

:clap::clap::clap:

Purple Haze exudes cheeriness and lightness and I expect she wants to stay that way.

Happy is good.

Her recollections and feelings are real. It's wonderful to watch.

Sounds good to me.

There are plenty of others who are made of a different cloth who will eagerly expose what should be exposed. She's not advertising Scientology. She's remembering a priceless piece of youth that was exciting and fun.
:yes:

Purple Haze is a breath of fresh Hawaiian air. A flower child still.
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Purple Haze shows a great deal of wisdom and I think has put her Scientology experience in a wonderful perspective.

She's not a victim!

She's not fingerpointing!

She's not dwelling on all the crap!

She looks back with great fondness on meeting Ron Hubbard; being welcomed as an expert on the Apollo; and the cutest memory of all seems to be the tryst with Alan. Glory days!

:clap::clap::clap:

Purple Haze exudes cheeriness and lightness and I expect she wants to stay that way.

Happy is good.

Her recollections and feelings are real. It's wonderful to watch.

Sounds good to me.

There are plenty of others who are made of a different cloth who will eagerly expose what should be exposed. She's not advertising Scientology. She's remembering a priceless piece of youth that was exciting and fun.
:yes:

Purple Haze is a breath of fresh Hawaiian air. A flower child still.

Right Boojuum "Happy is good". This is why nobody should join this organization.

best
Markus
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
<snip> . . . LOL at all the rest getting all their knickers in a twist, in their twist about ways! CARRY ON, you fools . . . <snip> '

Scientology 101: In the face of irrefutable logic and/or undeniable facts, apply ad homs.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Purple Haze is a breath of fresh Hawaiian air. A flower child still.

Below is from another thread:

-snip-

At the recent FZ Conference here in SoCal Mary Freeman was the hit of the conference with her recollections of scientology in the early '60s. The enthusiasm had the whole room regressed to being a pack of teenagers.

-snip-

I had fun in Scientology. It was a secretive cult and I was very naive. Ignorance is bliss.

Here's a tiny sampling - or reminder - of the "good old days" - of 1965, the same year that the Fair Game Law, 'KSW' and the SP Doctrine were formulated: http://www.suppressiveperson.org/hate/pubs/hco-exec-ltr-1965-09-27amprinistics.html

However, it didn't start in 1965: http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=56340&postcount=808 http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=297586&postcount=129

"...the whole room regressed to being a pack of teenagers..."

Good Lord.

Naivete is not a virtue. Cluelessness is not an ability. Ignorance is not really bliss.

These three events occurred within months of each other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WBrUwlv2nE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpYlEvWldEw

I hope this is not a trend: Scientologists, in psychological denial, reminiscing about the "good old days," and patting themselves on the back for being so "theta."
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
5440239034_dfe2da474c.jpg
 
I get it!

Please explain what you mean by "outside of the line up when the BIG ones roll in."

Thanks.

Yes indeedy Veda, Pandy is right, it is surfer lingo...:D

I would like to add for the record that I am a soul surfer and NOT a shredder! :D :coolwink:

(Pssst! I'm also a goofy-foot!) :happydance:

Veda, I have all the respect in the world for you and your researching skills and abilities...:yes:

...and I will give you a prize if you can tell me what that says about me (a hint: anatomy is involved!) :thumbsup:
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
Run Candy. Run.

dog-chew-toy.jpg

CHEW TOY

"So I say, “Live and let live.” That’s my motto. “Live and let live.” And anyone who can’t go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker. It’s a simple philosophy, but it’s always worked in our family." — George Carlin
 
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