Cant leave...

[GreyLensman]

A couple of weeks ago I found out about some very odd Scientology things and I decided I didn't want to be with them anymore. You gave me tips and info. Thank you.
I still have a problem though... I can't leave. I keep going to course and etc and have even planned new dates because I was too shy to tell anyone that I wanted to quit. I actually ended up doing even more with the church these days...
Also, I like my org and the people. They're my friends and even thinking about leaving them in this way upsets me. Every day when I say goodbye I promise myself it will be the last time but I'm too weak to just "not go". This isn't good because I really don't feel comfortable with the church anymore.
Can anyone help me with this?

Drift away. Stop flowing any money (they just waste it anyway). Discover a present time problem after being late to course a couple of times in a row that demands you be off course of a short (or long) time.

Unless you are affluent and a big money target you can drift away, bit by bit. IF you are a source of substancial (that's all relative...) income, wither through assets or credit lines, you will have to be far more overt and decisive. As in telling them to fuck off and threatening them with police complaints if they persist in invading your space.

Being nice about communicating that you are leaving doesn't work - you'll be looking up words until you change your mind, or on your way to do your L's to solve your disaffection. Either silently drift away or be unsocial, unpolite and tell them to get the hell out of your life.

Sorry about your friends. Make more and different, less deluded ones.

 

[NoName]

I just watched the youtube by Steven Mango. It is really one of the most impressive statements about scientology I have watched. Please try to catch it. Do you have a relative outside the organization, (I refuse to call it a church or a religion), who you can depend on for support? Being alone in your decision makes it more difficult. Just try to walk away. If you still come back, try to stay away for a longer period each time. Finally, you may be away long enough to lose the need to go back. It is like breaking off a bad relationship that you still have attraction to. Good luck and enjoy your trip to freedom.

Good advice! And you can usually post a link to youtube vids on here. Maye you're too new to have that option but usually you get full access to things like an inbox after three posts.

 

[Gib]

Can't leave....can't stay....

Or...want to leave, but can't leave.....

Or....want to stay, but don't want to stay....



Definitely a problem.

Games condition?

Per LRH:

GAMES CONDITION, 1. when you say games condition you mean that somebody’s power of choice has been subjugated against his will into a fixated activity from which he must not take his attention. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) 2. the word games condition is a derogatory actually. There is a technical thing goes along. When you say games condition you mean a package, and the package has to do with this: It means a fixated attention, an inability to escape coupled with an inability to attack, to the exclusion of other games. There is nothing wrong with having games. There is a lot wrong with being in a games condition because it is unknown, it is an aberrated activity, it is reactive, and one is performing it way outside of his power of choice and without his consent or will. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) 3. have for self and can’t have for others; now that is a true games condition. (SH Spec 32, 6107C20) Abbr. G.C.

Since you're continuing to go into the Org, you can look this up and read about it or listen to the LRH tape on this from the BC.

You could also put the whole situation in clay including emotions, intentions, counter intentions, desires......etc. with labels and all.....when you are alone at home....so that you can look at all the parts of this situation........and see if that helps you at all. If you don't have any clay.....get a big piece of paper and draw pictures of it to put it all out in front of you instead of it just being all in your head/mind.

I'm just curious....do you have a personal goal for getting training or auditing in Scientology?

I agree with the poster "phenomanon"

great post!

"Games Condition" sounds like an awful like KSW.

And as Ladybird once said, Hubbard was telling us what he was doing to us, and he was putting us in a games condition in scientology.



da joke on us. The unknown was hubbard's hidden agenda per his own affirmations.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

Feel free to block me after posting but...

[bad joke]
...now that GATII is here, everything should be OK.
[/bad joke]

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Sorry for not instantly replying. I've read everything though but I don't know how to respond to every single thing that has been said. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it because I do.
I do like to respond to something though: some of you said that friends in the church are never real friends and you gave some examples as well but I don't think this is the case with my friends. We do lots of things together and a lot outside of the church. I do believe this will change if I leave but I do consider them to be my very real friends.
Okay leaving quietly, I understand, is probably the easiest way. I do have something in mind for this but I don't think I feel comfortable with sharing that here, especially because someone here said the OSA is able to read here.
By the way, by troll, did you mean me? What did I do..?

Anyway, thank you. I hope I won't end up going anyway again... But I'm going to try.

Lorna,

Scientologists doing things together outside the org is all part of the trap, even the lovely "theta" fundraising events that they do may feel like a genuine social event but they are not, it's just how the cofs operates and every single move is programmed, planned and rehearsed (literally).

Your name will be on lists for needed book sales, recruitment and to get more money from you for silly courses and "processing" they want it all and once you are on staff they will treat you like shit and expect you to do the same to others, right up until you join staff you are treated very differently.

I use the word trap because that is what it ends up being and it doesn't necessarily mean that your friends intend or plan to trap you, they are trapped themselves and you (yes you) are actually helping to keep them in the trap too by playing the game even though you clearly feel uncomfortable with certain aspects of it.

You are all keeping each other in the "trap" ... you will probably never know whether your friends are feeling exactly as you are and want to leave because you are not "allowed" to talk about such things.



In the end the choice is yours and you must do what you want to do but be aware that the longer you stay the deeper you will be dragged under until eventually you may be in too deep and not be able to get out.

It's a CULT Lorna.

Leave while you still have the strength to do so then do not engage with them at all, any genuine friends will seek you out if and when they also leave.

 

[Wants2Talk]

Stay on lines. Report good intel to our central board. We may be able to get Big Pharma to pay for your Bridge.

 

[Gib]

Lorna,

Scientologists doing things together outside the org is all part of the trap, even the lovely "theta" fundraising events that they do may feel like a genuine social event but they are not, it's just how the cofs operates and every single move is programmed, planned and rehearsed (literally).

Your name will be on lists for needed book sales, recruitment and to get more money from you for silly courses and "processing" they want it all and once you are on staff they will treat you like shit and expect you to do the same to others, right up until you join staff you are treated very differently.

I use the word trap because that is what it ends up being and it doesn't necessarily mean that your friends intend or plan to trap you, they are trapped themselves and you (yes you) are actually helping to keep them in the trap too by playing the game even though you clearly feel uncomfortable with certain aspects of it.

You are all keeping each other in the "trap" ... you will probably never know whether your friends are feeling exactly as you are and want to leave because you are not "allowed" to talk about such things.

In the end the choice is yours and you must do what you want to do but be aware that the longer you stay the deeper you will be dragged under until eventually you may be in too deep and not be able to get out.

It's a CULT Lorna.

Leave while you still have the strength to do so then do not engage with them at all, any genuine friends will seek you out if and when they also leave.

That is the beauty of hubbards trap, to trap people in a nonsense game of clearing a planet.

Thank god because of somewhere in there after 26 years being involved I decided I didn't want to play this clearing the planet game and I retired from it, although I was still a member,

and then I got the debbie cook email and said fuk'in aye to myself, and truely retired from this scientology nonsense.

 

[FoTi]

Lorna....If you ever show up on this thread again.....here is a video for you to watch. For your own safety you need to listen to this....the whole thing.... all the way to the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2r2Nd6OJT4

 

[NoName]

Let me ask you this honestly, Lorna. If you needed a ride to the ER or your car broke down or you juat needed a shoulder to cry on, would you call your in friends? If so, how would they likely respond?

Because bad shit happenning means you're PTS and emotions like sadness are low-toned, right?

A couple of months ago, I got attacked by a dog that got loose in the neighborhood. I called a lady from my Pentacostal church to take me to the ER. My offlines / disaffected boyfriend was on a business trip, but more importantly I did not know how he would react because of the Scientological indoctrination.

I did in fact call him from the ER, mostly because it would have been a betrayal not to, and I can't be arsed to have my relationship on the cult's terms anyway.

My boyfriend called me again and again all the following week to check up on me and make sure I was healing alright.

I realized then that he loved me on his terms, and that our relationship is no longer being dictated by the cult. That made getting my arse cheek nearly bitten off completely worth it.

 

[George Layton]

For Lorna

Something you might try while your making up your mind is reading some books. There is a book called "Sophie's World" by: Jostien Gaarder. http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...aps&hvadid=3483870864&ref=pd_sl_9nggp94slc_ee
This is the Amazon page from which you can order it.
I like the book because it is about the history of philosophy while at the same time is what could be considered a children's book. The reason I recommend something like this is to shift your attention away from what your experiencing right now. The book is a work of fiction based on philosophical history but for me it stimulated a deeper interest in the studies and writing's of the people from our history. If you wish to shift your attention away from one thing, I have read, you need something to replace it. It does not necessarily need to be this particular book but you may want to choose one that is non-associated with scientology. If you are strapped for money at the moment you can find a good number of books at this site for no charge. https://archive.org/details/texts

All the best.

 

[Free Being Me]

Lorna, there's a whole substrata of $cientology that you may not be aware of and it's a vicious place carefully compartmentalized from $cientologists by DM and OSA. Ole Elcon did the same when he was alive with the GO. Please at the very least watch one of the videos below. $cientology is always worse than you think.

Sharone Stainforth (LRH Commodores Messenger at age 10) at the Dublin Offlines Event
[video=youtube;1JUUzC31uLk&feature=relmfu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JUUzC31uLk&feature=relmfu[/video]

Jenna Miscavige - L Ron Hubbard's Cult
[video=youtube;_sCrutrSZtI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCrutrSZtI&feature=related[/video]

Meshell Little on Disconnection
[video=youtube;vyDzkhDypgU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyDzkhDypgU[/video]

Tanja Castle leaves Gold Base
[video=youtube;JdHEh6toiWI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdHEh6toiWI[/video]

Ex's Tory Magoo and Nancy Many
[video=youtube;XgQCtTwzFHQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh31T8xFZ5o[/VIDEO]

THE HEROIC X WOMEN
Cross posted from:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?29939-THE-HEROIC-X-WOMEN&p=763865#post763865
http://outofscientology.com/?q=content/x-women-scientology
[video=youtube;XgQCtTwzFHQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XgQCtTwzFHQ[/video]

 

[Reasonable]

Sorry for not instantly replying. I've read everything though but I don't know how to respond to every single thing that has been said. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it because I do.
I do like to respond to something though: some of you said that friends in the church are never real friends and you gave some examples as well but I don't think this is the case with my friends. We do lots of things together and a lot outside of the church. I do believe this will change if I leave but I do consider them to be my very real friends.
Okay leaving quietly, I understand, is probably the easiest way. I do have something in mind for this but I don't think I feel comfortable with sharing that here, especially because someone here said the OSA is able to read here.
By the way, by troll, did you mean me? What did I do..?

Anyway, thank you. I hope I won't end up going anyway again... But I'm going to try.

A troll is a person who puts out posts just to cause a reaction but doesn’t really mean it. And yes when a person doesn’t respond we think that might be the case. I hope you understand. So it seems this is not the case with you.

RE: Are these people really your friends?

I think they are, the problem is that you are declared an SP they will not be allowed to talk to you anymore and also stay in the church. In most cases they will pick the church over you. It is simply a fact that this is what usually happens. So I think what some people are saying is that if they were true friends then they wouldn’t leave you.

Of course no one knows what they will do unless the situation actually happens.

Now if you leave quietly and don’t really talk about Scientology then they could still talk to you but you might ask “Do you have to censor your conversations with a true friend? Do you have to hide your true feelings with a true friend?”

I do think that they could be a true friend and they want the best for you but they believe that Scientology is the best thing for you. They think that if you leave Scientology then you will lose your eternity and if they use tough love by icing you out then maybe you will come to your senses and re join the group.

It is as if your leaving Scientology is like your being an alcoholic.

Also, maybe they feel that if you leave Sceintology and they still talk to you they will be kicked out as well and they will lose their eternity and while they still love you they can’t risk losing their eternity.

So in that way they do feel that they are doing the best by you and in their own frame of reference they are your friend.

So it is a little more complicated than the idea that “they are either your friend or they are not.”

I hope it all works out for you

Only the future will tell.

Glad to have you back we really really hope you get out, please stay in the conversation....thank you

 

[Nicole]

Sorry for not instantly replying. I've read everything though but I don't know how to respond to every single thing that has been said. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it because I do.
I do like to respond to something though: some of you said that friends in the church are never real friends and you gave some examples as well but I don't think this is the case with my friends. We do lots of things together and a lot outside of the church. I do believe this will change if I leave but I do consider them to be my very real friends.
Okay leaving quietly, I understand, is probably the easiest way. I do have something in mind for this but I don't think I feel comfortable with sharing that here, especially because someone here said the OSA is able to read here.
By the way, by troll, did you mean me? What did I do..?

Anyway, thank you. I hope I won't end up going anyway again... But I'm going to try.

...and because of this "friends" you want to stay in an abusive Cult?


I am working at a school... Regulary if kids have done something wrong, they are saying, my friends have done the same, they have told me to do this etc. My regular answer is, if your friends would have jumped from the "school roof", would you have done the same? If your friends would have told you do jump from the "school roof", would you have done this? This is a "basic training" for kids in the age of 6 -12 years.

Your "friends" are members of an abusive Cult, that destroys peoples life, that take everything away what they and you have. So I am asking you right now, if this friends would do suicide, would you do the same? Staying in this abusing Cult is a suicide for yourself.

If you are an intelligent adult, I believe you are, why do you need friends as apology to stay in an abusive Cult? Think for yourself please. This isn't the reason imo, why you want to stay. Why do you really want to stay in the Scientology Organization?

But it is your life and you decide how to live. But please don't behave here like a 6 year old kid, you are old enough to think on your own.

 

[DeeAnna]

The others here are better at giving advice than I am. But, Lorna, I would like to know what specific things you are seeing that are bothering you? And also, when you do see something that bothers you, how have you been handling it up until now?Is there anyone else at all among your friends there who might also be wanting to leave, do you think? Have you ever tried to hint around in a casual way to any of them?

 

[Lorna]

The others here are better at giving advice than I am. But, Lorna, I would like to know what specific things you are seeing that are bothering you? And also, when you do see something that bothers you, how have you been handling it up until now?Is there anyone else at all among your friends there who might also be wanting to leave, do you think? Have you ever tried to hint around in a casual way to any of them?

Do you mean what bothers me about Scientology? Because in fact I never thought I was forced to do certain things and I enjoyed a lot of things we did, but I saw a documentary on YouTube that got me confused. I never thought there were people critisizing the church, I thought those people who were against Scientology were mad and purposely trying to offend scientologists. But okay that documentary got me googling and I found so much disturbing information and I even got more here. So I've never had bad experiences but I'm shocked about some of the facts and don't want to have anything to do with them. I don't know how this is for other people in the church that I know but to be honest I'm afraid I might get into trouble when I mention what I heard. Even in private. Because actually if someone came up to me and asked me about something like this or even tried to tell me some of the facts I think I would have been very concerned. Not because I was evil or under control or anything, but just because I didn't know any better.

Let me ask you this honestly, Lorna. If you needed a ride to the ER or your car broke down or you juat needed a shoulder to cry on, would you call your in friends? If so, how would they likely respond?

I know that they would respond how a friend is supposed to respond. But I have a feeling that some of you misunderstand this. I'm not staying because of them. That's definitely not the case. This is just something that makes it harder but this is NOT my reason for having a hard time trying to quit. I'm having a hard time with this anyway.


And thanks a lot for more tips, info, etc, they are very useful and really, slowly drifting away will probably work for me. Is it better though to finish my course first or not? I'm not sure.




If I don't answer for a long time it's not because I don't care by the way. I'm reading a lot and not always instantly responding because I don't always know what to say and it's quite a lot. And I still go to the org where I really don't want anyone to see me on here.

 

[MrNobody]

Do you mean what bothers me about Scientology? Because in fact I never thought I was forced to do certain things and I enjoyed a lot of things we did, but I saw a documentary on YouTube that got me confused. I never thought there were people critisizing the church, I thought those people who were against Scientology were mad and purposely trying to offend scientologists. But okay that documentary got me googling and I found so much disturbing information and I even got more here. So I've never had bad experiences but I'm shocked about some of the facts and don't want to have anything to do with them. I don't know how this is for other people in the church that I know but to be honest I'm afraid I might get into trouble when I mention what I heard. Even in private. Because actually if someone came up to me and asked me about something like this or even tried to tell me some of the facts I think I would have been very concerned. Not because I was evil or under control or anything, but just because I didn't know any better.



I know that they would respond how a friend is supposed to respond. But I have a feeling that some of you misunderstand this. I'm not staying because of them. That's definitely not the case. This is just something that makes it harder but this is NOT my reason for having a hard time trying to quit. I'm having a hard time with this anyway.


And thanks a lot for more tips, info, etc, they are very useful and really, slowly drifting away will probably work for me. Is it better though to finish my course first or not? I'm not sure.

I'd say it's pretty predictable what'll happen when you finish this course: There'll be another VERY IMPORTANT course which they'll want you to sign up for IMMEDIATELY. It's for your own good, you know? Well, in case you didn't notice, that question was sarcasm.

If I don't answer for a long time it's not because I don't care by the way. I'm reading a lot and not always instantly responding because I don't always know what to say and it's quite a lot. And I still go to the org where I really don't want anyone to see me on here.

Don't worry, this is a forum, not a real-time chat. The cult and all the things around it (e.g. all the NarCONon issues) is a huge topic with many different sub-topics. It can take a lot of time to digest all the information and to form a well-founded opinion about it all. Therefore, I don't expect an immediate reply from you to everything you're confronted with.

Just do your research and take your time to come to your own conclusions. If you have questions, you'll probably find some helpful people with some answers here, plus some very informative links.

 

[Enthetan]

Being nice about communicating that you are leaving doesn't work - you'll be looking up words until you change your mind, or on your way to do your L's to solve your disaffection. Either silently drift away or be unsocial, unpolite and tell them to get the hell out of your life.

That's an important point. Org regges and call-in people are trained in how to use politeness against you.

In normal conversation, when you say "I have stuff to do, I'll talk to you later", the polite person on the other end will say something like "Good talking to you! Bye!". The org person will launch into "What is it that is more important than your Eternity? We need to resolve this right now. I need for you to make a commitment to come in. Is 7pm or 7:30 better for you?". The only way to end the conversation without giving the person what she wants will be for you to get rude about it.

Regarding your friends: they may really want to continue to be in touch with you, but they will come under INTENSE pressure to disconnect. The org tries hard to maintain info about who people are connected to. They will call in every one of your friends, tell them that you have gone psychotic, and that they need to disconnect from you.

 

[Nicole]

<snip>

And thanks a lot for more tips, info, etc, they are very useful and really, slowly drifting away will probably work for me. Is it better though to finish my course first or not? I'm not sure.

If you are feeling something is wrong there, why going on with it? If I am seeing something is going wrong or if I have the feeling something isn't so like I believed it is, I am making a step back and oberserve the situation and than I decide what to do.

To simplify the situation, if I am putting my fingers into the fire, I will put them immediately out of the fire to not get burned.

 

[Demented LRH]

A couple of weeks ago I found out about some very odd Scientology things and I decided I didn't want to be with them anymore. You gave me tips and info. Thank you.
I still have a problem though... I can't leave. I keep going to course and etc and have even planned new dates because I was too shy to tell anyone that I wanted to quit. I actually ended up doing even more with the church these days...
Also, I like my org and the people. They're my friends and even thinking about leaving them in this way upsets me. Every day when I say goodbye I promise myself it will be the last time but I'm too weak to just "not go". This isn't good because I really don't feel comfortable with the church anymore.
Can anyone help me with this?

Although I spent only 6 months is Sea Org, I made a lot of friends there. After I turned against CoS, I maintained a contact with them, although I didn’t tell them that I am no longer an official Scientologist (I still believed in Dianetics at that time, although the theta idea seemed absurd to me). You could do the same by withholding certain data about yourself from your friends.

 

[chipgallo]

Saw this quote in a signature line and thought of you Lorna:

"There are two freedoms: The false where a man is free to do what he likes; and the true where a man is free to do what he ought." -Charles Kingsley

Oddly enough, Scientology offers neither of these. It offers "the freedom to do what we want."