Catch-22 (All Opinions Welcome)

klidov

Silver Meritorious Patron
I went to reply on another thread, and I knew my reply would be too long. Now, this is a completely open discussion, so please feel free to offer any, or all thoughts with regards to this.

Slight Preface:

I live in Clearwater. The Cof$ members, and myself had an understanding. You do your thing, I'll do mine. That is the g-rated version.

And for the most part, that has been honored of the Cult's part. The exception being when I was followed because they (OSA) were investigating someone else, and I do consider it a "deal-breaker" when Atty Ken Dandar's Office was broken into. And, there was the whole telling my kids I was "on drugs" because I took psych meds.....but I digress.

Here is where it gets a little less cut-and-dried.

I have my own Ministry Credentials. Not a big deal, anyone can get them. You can get them online for free in less than three minutes. I still climb in my jeans one leg at a time, like normal mortals.

O.K.-enough. To the real topic of this post. I try to be careful to separate beliefs, dogma, tech, what-have-you, from my specific complaints about the Cult.

My argument is not with what Scientologists believe, my arguments are with the crimes that are committed in the "name" of the cult, and it's founder.

My own (personal) beliefs on spiritual matters could very well be shocking to you. Or humorous. I don't care if people want to worship pink unicorns, on fluffy blue clouds.

I make it my business when children, animals, (or even adults) are abused. Verbally, mentally, or physically. Or, when someone dies because of neglect. Or, when someone harms them self, or others, because they were given bad advice/information.

I do believe in the freedom to believe what you wish. That does not extend itself to abuse (like I mentioned above), or causing the destruction of families.

Now, here is where I must be clear: if a spouse/partner came to me for counseling, I would advise them accordingly. Including, perhaps, advising them to leave their significant other. If, and only if, I felt it was in the best interest of the person I was Spiritual Adviser too. I would NEVER, EVER advice someone to leave their spouse, or stop communicating with their loved ones because "they believe differently". Or because "they" (the) other person challenges our faith.

It's called FAITH for a reason! And frankly, please, feel free to hold my beliefs up to any scrutiny. I am a big girl, and I can take it. I promise :)

I have been on the opinion that when you single out one group, it is not real long till your own group gets a good looking at.

(Can you see the problem here? I desire nothing more than for the cult to answer for all of it's crimes, all of it's victims, and for the truth to be made known. If people want to follow the Tech, fine......publish the books & sell them at cost to fellow members.)

And there does seem to be a hypocrisy, let's put this group under a microscope, but not this group.

Which is the circular argument back to why would a member of a non-traditional faith (myself) try to help bring about the destruction of another "so-called" church?

Will I gain members for my own group? No-I am a Solitary. Will there be a financial gain for me? No. All it will do is bring some (unwanted) attention down on my head.

I know why I proudly support Anon. I am proud to call myself an Anon.

I don't want to see a snowball effect of other churches & sects being protested for simply being "different".

I hope the message is the Cof$ is being brought to national attention because people are dying. Because they are having families ripped apart. Because some people are losing every penny they have to this Monster, only to find themselves penniless.

And because people's minds are being played with. To me, that is a High Crime. "Free Will" is a given right.

So, please feel free to address anything here. I really want to see where this conversation will take us.

-K
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
The only thing that twiked my interest was:
"My own (personal) beliefs on spiritual matters could very well be shocking to you. Or humorous."

Yes, I am very nosey and you did put it there to be discussed, so lets hear it!
 

klidov

Silver Meritorious Patron
The only thing that twiked my interest was:
"My own (personal) beliefs on spiritual matters could very well be shocking to you. Or humorous."

Yes, I am very nosey and you did put it there to be discussed, so lets hear it!

O.K. :) I am a Eclectic Celtic-Tradition Witch. I could also be called a Pagan, or a Wiccan. (Some people get legalistic about the titles, but to me they are details, nothing more.)

Yes, I was raised a Christian, and I have been the member of many churches, all of whom I left because I was spiritually unsatisfied.

It took a long time for me to find myself. :happydance:
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
O.K. :) I am a Eclectic Celtic-Tradition Witch. I could also be called a Pagan, or a Wiccan. (Some people get legalistic about the titles, but to me they are details, nothing more.)

Yes, I was raised a Christian, and I have been the member of many churches, all of whom I left because I was spiritually unsatisfied.

It took a long time for me to find myself. :happydance:

AAh! That would explain your title as Solitary :D
I love you.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
O.K. :) I am a Eclectic Celtic-Tradition Witch. I could also be called a Pagan, or a Wiccan. (Some people get legalistic about the titles, but to me they are details, nothing more.)

Yes, I was raised a Christian, and I have been the member of many churches, all of whom I left because I was spiritually unsatisfied.

It took a long time for me to find myself. :happydance:

Cool! :happydance:
I'm an astrologer, which many people have weird ideas about. There are many views of the world, and concepts of spiritual awareness.

I don't disagree with what you say at all. My concern as an ex scientologist, is to help end the abuses and crimes that are hidden, so that others do not have to suffer the things so many of us did.
 

EastAnon

Patron with Honors
O.K. :) I am a Eclectic Celtic-Tradition Witch. I could also be called a Pagan, or a Wiccan. (Some people get legalistic about the titles, but to me they are details, nothing more.)

Yes, I was raised a Christian, and I have been the member of many churches, all of whom I left because I was spiritually unsatisfied.

It took a long time for me to find myself. :happydance:

Hey, any religion where woman dance around naked in the woods can't be all bad! :witch2:

Joking of course, but couldn't resist.

Back to your OP. You said:

I make it my business when children, animals, (or even adults) are abused. Verbally, mentally, or physically. Or, when someone dies because of neglect. Or, when someone harms them self, or others, because they were given bad advice/information.

I do believe in the freedom to believe what you wish. That does not extend itself to abuse (like I mentioned above), or causing the destruction of families.

And that's exactly why you need to do what you do. ANY religion that can't stand the light of day should be criticised. It has nothing to do with your beliefs, or your faith. I don't see any circular logic.

You're afraid it would come back to your group. So? Do wiccans sacrifice babies at full moon? Any other crimes? Didn't think so.
If people want to frown at certain rituals, so what. As long as you don't harm others, no problem.
 
I think the point of your post is very valid. I could care less what Scientologists believe, although I most ardently disagree. I could care less that it makes money. I think what bothers me the most isn't the arrogance of the Church and its followers, but rather the complete lack of conscience by its followers, and their willingness to accept anything the Church says or does as OK. When it came to light that Catholic Priest were abusing young boys there was an outcry in the Catholic community. But I have never heard a Scientologists in good standing criticize the Church. I may be contradicting myself by saying I don't care what they believe and at the same time complaining that Scientologists never complain about the injustice within the Church. Because it is the religious belief that one must never complain about the Church. So actually, I guess I do care what they believe, because they believe, apparently, that they themselves are not capable of injustice, because their ends justify any means.
Your religious and spiritual beliefs do not demand that you harm them. but their beliefs do demand that they harm you. That is what I despise about them the most.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Many would like to see the Church implode or disappear utterly with barely a whisper about anything written by L Ron Hubbard.
Many would like to see it reform, and morph into something like the FZ.
I share your idea that if they are not hurting others, it should not be discriminated against. I seek no other solution. My family was ripped apart and money was wasted. A lot of it. As soon as my personal slice of hell with the cult is over, I'll be over it. That's about it. I don't want to keep coming back here and reading or posting. I want it to be behind me. This is a way stop.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I like this conversation very much, I'll add more of my thoughts when I've had time to consider them fully.

One thing I would like to state is that I have no problem with individual scientologists or their beliefs. I think each of us is entitled to believe as we choose.

My disagreements with the CofS are all about the heartless manipulation, abuse, enslavement and corruption of well-intentioned people.

Most scientologists I know are fine people.

They'd continue to be fine people, and perhaps become so much more so, if the CofS was out of the picture.
 

Lee_from_phx

Patron with Honors
To me the biggest issue here is the matter of your kids. I don't know how old they are, but the fact that they have any contact at all with Hubbard's death machine gives me the willies.

Take your kids and get the hell out of town. Protecting your family is the most important thing. The cult has a minuscule presence throughout most of the world, and yet you live in one of the few places where they actually have a foothold. Get the fsck out. Fight them from a place where they're not entrenched, where they don't have people to follow you around, or approach your children and tell them nasty lies about you.

If it was just you there then it wouldn't be so bad. The cult is rather comedic in its ongoing efforts at self-parody. If you were the only person subject to its insanity then there wouldn't be anything to say. But if they're going after your kids then you need to do whatever is necessary to protect them.
 
The bit that I noticed was that you would advise someone to leave a spouse/partner when you think it is for their own good.

My questions about that are:
What is the position of "mainstream psychology" counsellors on that? Would they stop just before that line and not give the advice - but leave the person to decide whether or not they will continue a relationship which the counselor may him/herself feel is destructive?
Seems to me the person should make their own decision.
(Friends talking to friends would of course be different than a professional or semi-professional situation.)

It seems to me that you are on very shaky ground if you want to criticize disconnection (from an adult partner) as scio policy, if you advise disconnection yourself. BTW - this is just discussion in the spirit of the way you have asked for views on this.

I have just re-read your post and noticed you are talking about "spiritual" counselling/advice. Well the point about hypocrisy stands. Can't diss the scios for something you would do yourself.
The comparison with mainstream psychology, well I would want to know if it is regarded as ethical by psychologists and if not, why not? They may have views worth thinking about.
 

Wisened One

Crusader
MM, klidov! :witch2: Great post!

I also lean towards the Path of a Solitary, Eclectic Pagan/Traditional Witch, rather than Wiccan. (there IS a difference).

Blessed Be! :happydance:
 

klidov

Silver Meritorious Patron
To me the biggest issue here is the matter of your kids. I don't know how old they are, but the fact that they have any contact at all with Hubbard's death machine gives me the willies.

Take your kids and get the hell out of town. Protecting your family is the most important thing. The cult has a minuscule presence throughout most of the world, and yet you live in one of the few places where they actually have a foothold. Get the fsck out. Fight them from a place where they're not entrenched, where they don't have people to follow you around, or approach your children and tell them nasty lies about you.

If it was just you there then it wouldn't be so bad. The cult is rather comedic in its ongoing efforts at self-parody. If you were the only person subject to its insanity then there wouldn't be anything to say. But if they're going after your kids then you need to do whatever is necessary to protect them.


Thank you for your concern, but my children are adults now. And none of us were ever "in". (Not that the Cult didn't try their damnedest to make that happen).

They have no clue what to do with me. (The cult, I mean). And I like it that way.:yes:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
It's refreshing to see exes and other critics who don't mind what Scn'ists believe, as far as ideology goes. I'm telling you this now- this isn't always the case.

I think it's a good idea to not confuse someone's personal ideology with an evil abusive cult and kudos to you for making that distinction.

I've known a few Wiccans and also my dad used to be really into astrology and I've always thought there was a lot of value in both.

I'm glad we can agree re the Cof$.
 

feline

Patron Meritorious
I'm pretty certain that I have probably made these points in another post. Forgive the repetition.

I was raised a Christian by Christian parents and have always been a happy Christian. Faith came easily for me although I know that there are those that never find faith in any organized religion. To them I say, "find what makes you whole." For me, my faith is a foundational driver that should be apparent in the way I am perceived in the world. I think that every single person should have that. It is my comfort and my moral bedrock. Just because I find so much good in it, I think that every person should have that. Not my Christianity. My faith. I see them as two different things. To me, faith is the foundation, Christianity is the face.

I think no less of Fluff who finds her passion in the Free Zone. I think no less of Vinaire who finds his in Idenics. I think no less of Alan who finds Knowledgeism to be the thing that resounds for him. And I think no less of you, Kildov. I have long believed that it is your faith that keeps you grounded and whole and functional in this crazy world.

Someone asked earlier if a psychiatrist or psychologist would find it ethical to counsel someone to leave their spouse. Generally what the doctor will do is help that person to the realizations that are best for them. That can be difficult to do in some situations- generally where a level of abuse is occurring. But forcible removal never works. The person being abused MUST come to their own realizations or they will go back to the harmful relationship. Once in a conflict state with one of my parents, my therapist suggested that I set ground rules for our communication in an effort to keep it from becoming destructive. That was a very good idea and worked so well that we were able to return to a better relationship state. But disconnection? Nope.

From a spiritual perspective, I would think that the approach would be much the same. Where there is genuine damage being done, try setting limits first as a way to insure a series of positive experiences. Over time, the positive experiences create a place of trust and safety and the partners can move on. Important note here- both must agree that this will be the approach that they will take and both must work at it.

Now that I have said all that, I will say this. I like that approach. I have experienced that it is a workable approach. YOU may not. And that is OK too. From a spiritual perspective, you are there to guide your querent and you should use the approach that is right for you.

To me, the issue of Scientology is not one of religion. The issue is that it has become destructive to its members. If my neighbor was beating his wife, he would find himself compelled to discuss that behavior with the police. If he was stealing, the same would happen. I am not here to judge the beliefs of a Scientologist, I am here to judge the actions of Corporate Scientology.

Before anyone needs to burn cycles on the fact that other religions have as bad a historic past, I will also say that I abhor ANY Corporate religion. Beating people, starving them, taking their money- it is all reprehensible and should not happen. And yes. I would speak out as loudly about them, too.

Religion is religion. Faith is faith. I can have my faith without calling it by a name. It wouldn't change.

Kildov- you can be too hard on yourself sometimes. You do a good thing when you protest that which is so clearly and obviously wrong.

P.S. What if I LIKE pink unicorns and blue clouds? Be kinda cool to have around, don't you think?
 

buster

Patron
O.K. :) I am a Eclectic Celtic-Tradition Witch. I could also be called a Pagan, or a Wiccan. (Some people get legalistic about the titles, but to me they are details, nothing more.)

Yes, I was raised a Christian, and I have been the member of many churches, all of whom I left because I was spiritually unsatisfied.

It took a long time for me to find myself. :happydance:


lol WHAT
um witches arent real
 
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