CCHR

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
CCHR's anti SSRI campaigns indirectly demonize the truthful and accurate anti-SSRI evidence by associating the entire subject with a nutball cult of whackos...

If I were a big drug company I might support CCHR...because of Lenin's advice re political opponents


Lenin — 'The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.'
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology's big obsession with demonizing psych meds is simply because they don't like the competition.

Last lifetime, I had a worst-case experience with psychiatry which gave me a pro-CCHR bias this lifetime. In fact, I was volunteering for them for a while. Then I overheard someone talking about offering me a staff contract. I walked out and never came back.

My main objection to psych meds now is that when it stops working, you keep having to up the dose. Then it stops working again, but now you have a habit. (Please feel free to disagree with me if you think I'm wrong.)

Helena
 

freethinker

Sponsor
The reason, IMO, you have to keep upping the dose is not because the drug doesn't work, it is because the drug isn't fixing the problem but merely masking it. Then the problem gets worse and you have to take more of the [STRIKE]poison[/STRIKE] medication to suppress the problem it is only masking but not fixing.



Scientology's big obsession with demonizing psych meds is simply because they don't like the competition.

Last lifetime, I had a worst-case experience with psychiatry which gave me a pro-CCHR bias this lifetime. In fact, I was volunteering for them for a while. Then I overheard someone talking about offering me a staff contract. I walked out and never came back.

My main objection to psych meds now is that when it stops working, you keep having to up the dose. Then it stops working again, but now you have a habit. (Please feel free to disagree with me if you think I'm wrong.)

Helena
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
There are many non-scientologists including some psychologists and psychiatrists who are concerned about the overuse of psychiatric drugs, and imo have legitimate concerns.

In my view, they're necessary in some situations, have helped many people, and can be lifesaving.

But the side effects can be awful in some of these drugs, so I prefer that other approaches are tried first IF it's not going to put the patient (or others) at risk.

The field of psychiatry and psychology are just like any other fields; there are great practitioners and others who should not be allowed to have a license. There are many who genuinely care about their patients and others who just go through the motions so they can get paid.

Given the stakes involved when entrusting your mental health with a practitioner I would advise shopping for one carefully, not just calling the first one you come across in the phone book.
 

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
My main objection to psych meds now is that when it stops working, you keep having to up the dose. Then it stops working again, but now you have a habit. (Please feel free to disagree with me if you think I'm wrong.)

SSRI DO NOT STOP WORKING. Valium and consorts (benzodiazepine, tranquilizers) do so after a while, then, yes, people have to increase doses, or get off it, get therapy, switch to something that doesn't stop working, smoke pot, jump off a bridge, join a space-alien-cult, learn painting, or whatever unlucky people do. Or maybe by that time the anxiety disorder or trauma or sleep difficulties for which it had been prescribed are just over, so they can wear it off.

Sertraline (a SSRI) & Co. do not stop working. I took it for a year, experiencing no decrease of the effect whatsoever. Some people take it much longer. That stuff just doesn't lose its effect. That is a very banal fact and not up for discussion, people should really get that right. It doesn't work that way - the brain can't "adapt" to it, like it does with morphine, by decreasing or increasing certain neurotransmitters. SSRI = "selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors". One has more serotonin available because the used doesn't get removed so quickly. I can't deliver the details for why the brain doesn't adapt to that, but it DOESN'T. The surplus of serotonin is a lasting effect, as long as the drug is taken.

All drugs work differently. They interfere with our natural biochemistry in different ways. Some lose their effects, some do NOT. Even heroin can be taken as an example for what that means: the psychological effects (and others) diminish, so that one has to take more to have the same effect, and for not getting withdrawal symptoms - but the effect of respiratory depression does not diminish, or not that much. So people die of heroin addiction because eventually they suffocate, and because it also causes nausea and vomiting often they die by aspiration of vomit while unconscious. If any and all effects would wear off equally, that wouldn't be the case.
One can probably take Aspirin daily for ten years, and AFAIK it won't "stop working" - but one will get some serious medical problems, yeah.


I'll add a positive Sertraline anecdote, for the Scientologists lurking ... and other haters of medical drugs.

After a major depression, I took a low dose of Sertraline for around half a year. My depression was literally gone in a week, but the brain needs to recuperate, to change certain structures. The depression would have come back if I stopped it. So I took it for the recommended time.

The only physical side effects I had was a dry mouth, and "restless legs" for some nights when I started it. That's all.

Eventually I WANTED to stop it. Not because I felt addicted, or zombified, or giddy, or whatever the 50-100 year old horror tales are that basically all have developed around Valium (tranquilizer) & Haldol (antipsychotic). I just couldn't get the mental mini excesses that are necessary for art (and orgasms by the way). I had all the normal human emotions, but couldn't do certain types of art that previously gave me great satisfaction. I was used to do that art, but now I didn't have the emotional needs that made me do it, yet I still missed it for various reasons. So I became a bit "fed up" with that drug because such a large part of my life was missing; and at that point, the doc anyways said that the minimal time necessary for the brain healing was now over. I got off it without any problems, or feelings of addiction.

The second time I took it, years later, I chose (!) an even lower dose, I had to break these tiny tablets. This time I could even do all the art. I just learned to do it in a bit different way, for another motive, it's an adaptive process.

In short, I see that drug as a very mechanical way to get rid of a depression that has developed in an equally mechanical way for no good reason whatsoever.

One has to stop Sertraline gradually, over some weeks, but that has NOTHING to do with psychological addiction or any "craving", only with physical side effects that would otherwise appear. IIRC, spontaneous stings and twitches, dizziness, and such.
Apart from the seldom cases who get severe side effects for no foreseeable reason, like with pretty much any drug, there's also that, please consider: some stubborn morons with zero understanding of the biochemistry involved and zero will to listen to their docs stop a high dose instantly because they "feel better", and then they moan that they are "addicted", and/or that they're getting "severe side effects". Bollocks. :duh:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor



CCHR's anti SSRI campaigns indirectly demonize the truthful and accurate anti-SSRI evidence by associating the entire subject with a nutball cult of whackos...

If I were a big drug company I might support CCHR...because of Lenin's advice re political opponents


Lenin — 'The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.'

Yeah, ya all, have fun with the conspiracy theory that "big pharma" could be secretly supporting CCHR ... because it "could be", and because it makes some sense. Yeah, could be. So, everybody, listen up, Arnie has pulled something out of his ass that could be. What an excellent reason to assume the worst case. So much for critical thinking. :duh: Anybody who feels like delving into that, please check all the likely and unlikely "why" and "why not", using critical thinking, - that's all I recommend. Look at the "pros" and "cons". Not only check the "why" and explore all the "pros", no matter how unlikely, just because that's the more thrilling thing, and keeps producing the more perverse scenarios. :no: For example: how big is CCHR, what are they doing, what do they achieve, and how could big drug companies secretly support it. Money? People? I'm just saying. Who the fuck has ever heard of CCHR? That obscure bird shit of a Co$ front group, mainly serving as a propaganda producer for Co$-members, should interest big drug companies, to use it for some twisted propaganda scheme? Is that likely? Would that be effective, by any means? Would that make sense for the efficiency-obsessed people running a big drug company? So, what's the reality behind that? Really, if fathoming the details of that is entertaining for somebody, go have fun. :) Just try not to lose contact with reality. :eyeroll: Balance the factors against each other, and take a deep breath from time to time, and ask yourself whether you keep finding correlations and bits of evidence, or whether you merely keep spinning colorful tales - even when they could, theoretically, be possible. Just as the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence", the plural of "tale" is not "research" but "sequel". So to say.
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
If I were sitting next to you on a barstool, I'd knock you down
if that was the response to sharing a few thoughts..

So, everybody, listen up, Arnie has pulled something out of his ass that could be. What an excellent reason to assume the worst case. So much for critical thinking. :duh.

The rest of your post was quite lucid
 

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian

Free Being Me

Crusader
If I were sitting next to you on a barstool, I'd knock you down
if that was the response to sharing a few thoughts..

The rest of your post was quite lucid

Threatening a person with physical violence is about as low as it gets.

Forum Rules
The following will not be tolerated:
Threats or promotion of violence
 
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catarina

PTS Type III
I will gracefully step over the bar room brawl, I will however agree with eldritch cuckoo that CCHR seems pretty insignificant. Of course, I don't have a clear view of how things are in the US, but over here in Sweden the only people I have ever heard talking about them is a doctor - not my doctor - who has an interest, and a very small number of anonymous posters on a "wild and crazy" message board, which usually ends up with people calling them stupid scientologists (not a positive epithet).

While I probably have a more thorough personal experience with EvilPsychDrugs than many of you (not saying all of you, just many), I don't really know if there is any point in going into that.
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
SSRI DO NOT STOP WORKING. Valium and consorts (benzodiazepine, tranquilizers) do so after a while, then, yes, people have to increase doses, or get off it, get therapy, switch to something that doesn't stop working, smoke pot, jump off a bridge, join a space-alien-cult, learn painting, or whatever unlucky people do. Or maybe by that time the anxiety disorder or trauma or sleep difficulties for which it had been prescribed are just over, so they can wear it off.

Sertraline (a SSRI) & Co. do not stop working. I took it for a year, experiencing no decrease of the effect whatsoever. Some people take it much longer. That stuff just doesn't lose its effect. That is a very banal fact and not up for discussion, people should really get that right. It doesn't work that way - the brain can't "adapt" to it, like it does with morphine, by decreasing or increasing certain neurotransmitters. SSRI = "selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors". One has more serotonin available because the used doesn't get removed so quickly. I can't deliver the details for why the brain doesn't adapt to that, but it DOESN'T. The surplus of serotonin is a lasting effect, as long as the drug is taken.

All drugs work differently. They interfere with our natural biochemistry in different ways. Some lose their effects, some do NOT. Even heroin can be taken as an example for what that means: the psychological effects (and others) diminish, so that one has to take more to have the same effect, and for not getting withdrawal symptoms - but the effect of respiratory depression does not diminish, or not that much. So people die of heroin addiction because eventually they suffocate, and because it also causes nausea and vomiting often they die by aspiration of vomit while unconscious. If any and all effects would wear off equally, that wouldn't be the case.
One can probably take Aspirin daily for ten years, and AFAIK it won't "stop working" - but one will get some serious medical problems, yeah.


I'll add a positive Sertraline anecdote, for the Scientologists lurking ... and other haters of medical drugs.

After a major depression, I took a low dose of Sertraline for around half a year. My depression was literally gone in a week, but the brain needs to recuperate, to change certain structures. The depression would have come back if I stopped it. So I took it for the recommended time.

The only physical side effects I had was a dry mouth, and "restless legs" for some nights when I started it. That's all.

Eventually I WANTED to stop it. Not because I felt addicted, or zombified, or giddy, or whatever the 50-100 year old horror tales are that basically all have developed around Valium (tranquilizer) & Haldol (antipsychotic). I just couldn't get the mental mini excesses that are necessary for art (and orgasms by the way). I had all the normal human emotions, but couldn't do certain types of art that previously gave me great satisfaction. I was used to do that art, but now I didn't have the emotional needs that made me do it, yet I still missed it for various reasons. So I became a bit "fed up" with that drug because such a large part of my life was missing; and at that point, the doc anyways said that the minimal time necessary for the brain healing was now over. I got off it without any problems, or feelings of addiction.

The second time I took it, years later, I chose (!) an even lower dose, I had to break these tiny tablets. This time I could even do all the art. I just learned to do it in a bit different way, for another motive, it's an adaptive process.

In short, I see that drug as a very mechanical way to get rid of a depression that has developed in an equally mechanical way for no good reason whatsoever.

One has to stop Sertraline gradually, over some weeks, but that has NOTHING to do with psychological addiction or any "craving", only with physical side effects that would otherwise appear. IIRC, spontaneous stings and twitches, dizziness, and such.
Apart from the seldom cases who get severe side effects for no foreseeable reason, like with pretty much any drug, there's also that, please consider: some stubborn morons with zero understanding of the biochemistry involved and zero will to listen to their docs stop a high dose instantly because they "feel better", and then they moan that they are "addicted", and/or that they're getting "severe side effects". Bollocks. :duh:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor





Yeah, ya all, have fun with the conspiracy theory that "big pharma" could be secretly supporting CCHR ... because it "could be", and because it makes some sense. Yeah, could be. So, everybody, listen up, Arnie has pulled something out of his ass that could be. What an excellent reason to assume the worst case. So much for critical thinking. :duh: Anybody who feels like delving into that, please check all the likely and unlikely "why" and "why not", using critical thinking, - that's all I recommend. Look at the "pros" and "cons". Not only check the "why" and explore all the "pros", no matter how unlikely, just because that's the more thrilling thing, and keeps producing the more perverse scenarios. :no: For example: how big is CCHR, what are they doing, what do they achieve, and how could big drug companies secretly support it. Money? People? I'm just saying. Who the fuck has ever heard of CCHR? That obscure bird shit of a Co$ front group, mainly serving as a propaganda producer for Co$-members, should interest big drug companies, to use it for some twisted propaganda scheme? Is that likely? Would that be effective, by any means? Would that make sense for the efficiency-obsessed people running a big drug company? So, what's the reality behind that? Really, if fathoming the details of that is entertaining for somebody, go have fun. :) Just try not to lose contact with reality. :eyeroll: Balance the factors against each other, and take a deep breath from time to time, and ask yourself whether you keep finding correlations and bits of evidence, or whether you merely keep spinning colorful tales - even when they could, theoretically, be possible. Just as the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence", the plural of "tale" is not "research" but "sequel". So to say.

Excellent, excellent post. THANK YOU!
 

catarina

PTS Type III
The reason, IMO, you have to keep upping the dose is not because the drug doesn't work, it is because the drug isn't fixing the problem but merely masking it. Then the problem gets worse and you have to take more of the [STRIKE]poison[/STRIKE] medication to suppress the problem it is only masking but not fixing.

I thought I should after all address this, after my own experience, which is of course only that of one person.

With some medications, you may need to up the dose. With some others, once you find a good spot, you can just stay there. Sometimes you go lower or discontinue the med. There are so many possible mental problems a person can have, and I personally don't believe you can attack them all in the same way. Good luck treating PTSD with pills only. But so far I haven't met any carefully diagnosed bipolar who was fixed - not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't run into any. It's a very variable disorder, some people can have an episode every ten years, so it would take a very long time before you knew for sure that they were rid of it. For someone like me, who flips every 2-3 months when not medicated, it's more obvious.

For several years now I have been on a set dose of lithium, plus I take two other meds that I adjust slightly up or down depending on things like the season of the year. There is no euphoria or craving connected to this at all. Very sparingly, on special occasions, I use valium. I can still use the same dose as when I first took it 15 years ago.

I had more trauma-related issues that I needed psychotherapy, and especially strong support from friends and family, to deal with. Those hardly bother me anymore. It's pretty cool to finally feel that I can talk about anything, if I choose to. Maybe I finally went Grade 0 release. :biggrin: The bipolar is something else, episodes can come from nowhere, for no obvious reason, and kept getting worse before I ever went on bipolar drugs.

If I didn't think that my drugs were useful, I would dump them. Yes, it can be uncomfortable to discontinue meds, but I have done it several times before and it doesn't scare me at all, it only lasts for a short time, unless you have gotten yourself hooked on benzodiazepines or pain killers. Actually, 2014 was probably my happiest year since before scn, so I'm doing something right.

Funny story: I know people usually think of antipsychotic drugs as really heavy and making you into a zombie. And yes, this can happen. But several years ago, while just out of hospital and on a hefty dose of an antipsychotic plus an antidepressant, I took our sort of equivalent of the SAT ("test for higher education"). Perfect score. :p I could have picked any university I wanted. Unfortunately, I was still way too fucked up for that to work in practice. It's anyway something to laugh about.

Now I'm done oversharing for now, and you can all go back to actually discussing the CoS :yes:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Now I'm done oversharing for now, and you can all go back to actually discussing the CoS :yes:

I appreciate you sharing your experiences and suspect that it's helpful to many lurkers. Hubbard installed a phobia into scientologists making them terrified of Psych's and psych drugs, and I think it would be helpful for them to hear from people who share their experience as you have here.

It's tragic really that some people exiting the cult in rough condition are terrified of those who can help them the most.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Have you ever read up on iodine?


For several years now I have been on a set dose of lithium, plus I take two other meds that I adjust slightly up or down depending on things like the season of the year. There is no euphoria or craving connected to this at all. Very sparingly, on special occasions, I use valium. I can still use the same dose as when I first took it 15 years ago.
 

catarina

PTS Type III
I appreciate you sharing your experiences and suspect that it's helpful to many lurkers. Hubbard installed a phobia into scientologists making them terrified of Psych's and psych drugs, and I think it would be helpful for them to hear from people who share their experience as you have here.

It's tragic really that some people exiting the cult in rough condition are terrified of those who can help them the most.

I think it's a closed world to many, which is a pity, because people should simply never think they need to decide based on dark fears. Now, I'm sure many of them would still not choose to turn to psychiatry, to each their own, but it should be a choice, not a forbidden area.

I sure can share horror stories as well - that is almost inevitable when you have been "in the system" for a while. It has still definitely been worth it for me.
 
There are many non-scientologists including some psychologists and psychiatrists who are concerned about the overuse of psychiatric drugs, and imo have legitimate concerns.

In my view, they're necessary in some situations, have helped many people, and can be lifesaving.

But the side effects can be awful in some of these drugs, so I prefer that other approaches are tried first IF it's not going to put the patient (or others) at risk.

The field of psychiatry and psychology are just like any other fields; there are great practitioners and others who should not be allowed to have a license. There are many who genuinely care about their patients and others who just go through the motions so they can get paid.

Given the stakes involved when entrusting your mental health with a practitioner I would advise shopping for one carefully, not just calling the first one you come across in the phone book.

having been subjected to seriously painful and debilitating coerced drugging in both 1975 and 1980 i'm in favor of all who oppose them...
 

catarina

PTS Type III
Have you ever read up on iodine?

Not previously, but I took a look around. I don't know... I do use ionized salt, and take a multivitamin containing iodine (and there is no fluoride in the drinking water over here). I'm not sure I would muck around with high doses considering I have lithium-induced hypothyroidism, no symptoms but it shows up in tests (and this is the lithium - I was tested several times before being put on it, and the bipolar symptoms appeared some 25 years before the thyroid acted up).

I might add that I have tried omega-3 supplements for at least a year, plus I eat salmon and mackerel. I know some people swear by it, while others complain of negative mood effects. Never seemed to make the slightest bit of difference to me.

But thank you for the idea! :)
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I think it's a closed world to many, which is a pity, because people should simply never think they need to decide based on dark fears. Now, I'm sure many of them would still not choose to turn to psychiatry, to each their own, but it should be a choice, not a forbidden area.

I sure can share horror stories as well - that is almost inevitable when you have been "in the system" for a while. It has still definitely been worth it for me.

No doubt that there are horror stories that can be told from peoples experiences with psychology and psychiatry, just as within the field of medicine as well.

A good friend of mine lost his Aunt several years ago when she was rushed to the ER after falling and was administered a drug she was allergic to, despite the fact that she was wearing a medical alert bracelet indicating what she was allergic to.

Unfortunately, these types of things happen every day due to human error. It's far from a perfect system. But still, if you're in a serious, life-threatening car accident your best chances of survival are getting a paramedic out to you, and then getting rushed to the hospital. Contrary to what Tom Cruise would tell you, scientologists aren't the only ones who can help. :duh:

The problem with CoS is that they install a phobia by ONLY telling the horror stories. They carefully filter all the news about peoples experiences from seeing a Psych to remove all the positive experiences where peoples lives were saved by going to see a psychologist or psychiatrist and/or just had their issues effectively resolved which significantly improved their life.

You can do this with ANY field. As an example, you can do it with plumbers. Carefully control all the information that people receive about plumbers, only giving them info about horror stories. "I called a plumber to fix a leak in my toilet and they caused a flood in my home ruining my carpet!" If you only provided that type of info and filtered out any positive info than people would be terrified to call a plumber and would never consider it no matter how urgent the need.
 
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catarina

PTS Type III
The problem with CoS is that they install a phobia by ONLY telling the horror stories. They carefully filter all the news about peoples experiences from seeing a Psych to remove all the positive experiences where peoples lives were saved by going to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

You can do this with ANY field. As an example, you can do it with plumbers. Carefully control all the information that people receive about plumbers, only giving them info about horror stories. "I called a plumber to fix a leak in my toilet and they caused a flood in my home ruining my carpet!" If you only provided that type of info and filtered out any positive info than people would be terrified to call a plumber and would never consider it.

Pretty good example.

I can quite literally and on good grounds say that psychiatry saved my life. On another occasion, infection medicine also saved my life. That is very much more than scientology ever did.

Other people have other experiences, but we must all be heard.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
The reason, IMO, you have to keep upping the dose is not because the drug doesn't work, it is because the drug isn't fixing the problem but merely masking it. Then the problem gets worse and you have to take more of the [STRIKE]poison[/STRIKE] medication to suppress the problem it is only masking but not fixing.

I get tired of hearing people parrot the 'it only masks a problem" line, because it's not true for most chronic conditions - only acute ones.

Many "psych drugs" don't mask a problem, they are actually altering problematic brain chemistry and fixing the problem. Low serotonin levels for example, meds can help increase or decrease the brain's uptake receptors to these chemicals and it can make a significant difference to people suffering from depression. This is not masking it, it's actually making effective changes to your brain's chemistry to improve your feeling of well being.

Some psych drugs do mask symptoms - if you have an active psychotic who's posing a real danger to himself or others using a drug to subdue him for several hours (masking the symptoms of a psychotic episode) ain't such a bad thing.

Most of the drugs that "mask" symptoms are (as mentioned above) benzos like valium that give effective, temporary relief for anxiety. Morophine "masks" pain, which is a very good thing if you are suffering from severe pain. But these are fine to try short-term or acute conditions - because a long term solution isn't needed. The condition is suppose to clear up or you will heal from it in a few days or weeks time.

This is why most drugs that "mask" are prescribed for acute problems, like morphine for after-surgery pain. You only need to mask the symptoms until your body effective heals your body. Drugs for chronic conditions aim to do more than "mask" or provide a temporary solution for a long-term problem. It's usually why drugs are differentiated when prescribing them, whether they are for "acute" or "chronic" problems. Drugs for chronic conditions usually try to get to the root of a problem to solve it, acute drugs just help you get through the period until you are healed or over the hump.
 
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