Charisma

[Irayam]

Hello Exes!

I was wondering about charisma and its impact on expansion.
I have never be in presence of El Con, so I don't know if he had charisma; but I guess yes. For me he was not so charismatic on pictures... Even a little disgusting (and, yes, I stayed in $cientology...)

But I have witnessed the opening and expansion of my local mission and the ED was very charismatic. He was charming, quite handsome, beau parleur as we say in french. He was the archetype of the very good and friendly salesman. And the mission was as he was (friendly, a nice place to be, etc.), the expansion was rapid, the staff were well payed (yes, it has existed in some area!). The mission became an class IV org and was still winning and expanding. All the public was in awe of the ED, everybody was feeling this friendship and was OK to work hard for him on courses or in session.

On the other hand, I have also witnessed the opening of a second mission in my city. The ED and his girlfriend were very friendly but they were absolutely not charismatic. The mission was empty and after 1 or 2 years it closed.

So I think that the sales tech, the advertising or the "ruin" finding are not sufficient in order to have success and expand. It is more based on the behavior and the personality of the persons involved.

Have you also witnessed this situation? Is the success of the orgs or missions linked to exceptional people?
I think its the case. Like in the world outside of $cientology.

Thanks for reading, all the best!
Irayam

 

[Hypatia]

Great topic. IMO, cult leaders get by largely on charisma. This sucks people in. Then there's inevitably some part of the cult's message that resonates with people. Quite the combination!

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

What is the state of the mission/Org in Lausanne now?

I visited there a couple of times in the early 90's and remember that guy.

What's up with Fernand Pasche and his wife from Geneva?

 

[freethinker]

All you have to do is watch the political debates in running for president. It's all about charisma. I doubt even 10 per cent of the people actually know anything the candidates have done. It's mostly about who reaches the people in the moment.

 

[ThetanExterior]

I suppose it's different for each person.

I got into scientology by reading Dianetics. At that time I'd never heard of Hubbard so I wasn't influenced by his charisma, just his lies in that book.

I also remember being less than impressed with the staff members of my local org. Charisma certainly had no part to play in my experience of scientology.

 

[Little David]

Most people I know believe that loud mouthed bullshitters like Trump have charisma.

 

[Gib]

Great topic. IMO, cult leaders get by largely on charisma. This sucks people in. Then there's inevitably some part of the cult's message that resonates with people. Quite the combination!

I'd agree.

charisma is a abstract noun, which Hubbard used a lot all the while claiming scientific.

Concrete nouns are tangible and you can experience them with your five senses. Abstract nouns are intangible things , like feelings, ideals, concepts and qualities.

Is religion abstract?

Is science concrete?

 

[Irayam]

What is the state of the mission/Org in Lausanne now?

I visited there a couple of times in the early 90's and remember that guy.

What's up with Fernand Pasche and his wife from Geneva?

Hi Tino!
Sorry , but I have no idea about what Fernand Pasche is doing or how he is. I have no more contact with $cientologists since May 1990. Even at the time when I was in, I was really separated from clams from Geneva. I knew a little some people in Bern and Fribourg.

Irayam
(and sorry for my comm lag!!)

 

[Irayam]

What is the state of the mission/Org in Lausanne now?

When I pass in front of the Org, I see time to time a salesman smocking and trying to close some prospect by phone. It seems that the org is now smoke free!!

Irayam

 

[Irayam]

All you have to do is watch the political debates in running for president. It's all about charisma. I doubt even 10 per cent of the people actually know anything the candidates have done. It's mostly about who reaches the people in the moment.

Right! Or about to be handsome! Like old ladies saying "Oh this guy is good!" (he is handsome) or "I don't like this one" (he is ugly)

Irayam

 

[Irayam]

I suppose it's different for each person.

I got into scientology by reading Dianetics. At that time I'd never heard of Hubbard so I wasn't influenced by his charisma, just his lies in that book.

I also remember being less than impressed with the staff members of my local org. Charisma certainly had no part to play in my experience of scientology.

I also got into the cult by reading Dianetics.
I was not speaking of the influence of charisma on the persons, but I was asking to the people of this board if they have witnessed the fact that a mission or an org led by a charismatic leader was expanding easily compared to an org where the ED or the important persons are without charisma. I'm sure it's the case.

Irayam

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

"Charisma" per se, is a weird and illusionary thing imho. People using it generally have a target audience, Hubbard knew this, he knew what it took to perpetuate and bolster his grand con.

The rabbit-hole, such noice flowers surrounding the entrance hole...

 

[uniquemand]

"Charisma" per se, is a weird and illusionary thing imho. People using it generally have a target audience, Hubbard knew this, he knew what it took to perpetuate and bolster his grand con.

The rabbit-hole, such noice flowers surrounding the entrance hole...

There are some people who are generally considered charismatic. Bill Clinton was one. It was rare to find a person who wasn't a partisan who didn't like him (and most partisans did, too, even if they found his DEEDS reprehensible).

I'm not sure what goes into it, but it's definitely not all about how a person LOOKS.

I love Noam Chomsky, but he's about the least charismatic person I've ever watched talk. I wish he were charismatic! Obama is and was very charismatic, too, as was Reagan. Bush: not so much. Luckily, he had money. Shrub was a little more charismatic, but he was so dumb that people were harsh with him.

I have no doubt that Hubbard was very charismatic. He certainly had me charmed. I liked nothing better than listening to his "lectures" when I was a Scientologist. I still like listening to him when he talks, though I don't weight anything he says as factual.

Interesting point. I don't really know what makes a person charismatic. I've been described as charismatic, and I certainly have managed to get my way when there was no reason people should go along with me in the past. I should really put it to use for some cause I believe in.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

it generally ain't 'looks'...

I guess my problem with the 'charisma' thingy is that it is often illusionary/bullshit, and often based on money/power, and the 'oh-wheeeee' sort of thing, public perceptions, painting pigs, lying, and denying the very deepest of truths. Big bucks paint big pigs. The best charisma, to me, is an illusion around people who can, or very good at, conning others. People who know how to lather up the people. Whip them into a frenzy mon, even if it doesn't mean much per-topic. As long as yer pretty, can speak, and promise shit. Iya.

Money can create the illusions of things that are not real. You, by now, should realize this.

A truly convoluted post, on a complicated subject.

oi.

I go nao.

 

[Little David]

I think Bill and Hillary Clinton, L. Ron Hubbard and Trump all have or had (LRH might be dead!) charisma and all are conscience free.

 

[OutToe83]

When I pass in front of the Org, I see time to time a salesman smocking and trying to close some prospect by phone. It seems that the org is now smoke free!!

Irayam

Oh, no! The org can't be smoke free or it will wither and die. Ya gotta have smoke with the mirrors if you want to sell your snake oil.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

I won't say Hubbard was charismatic and I won't say he wasn't, but he was certain. He presented what he had to say as the absolute truth no doubt about it. And I'm sure that pulled a lot of people in.

Helena, certain about the above

 

[Victoria]

There are some people who are generally considered charismatic. Bill Clinton was one. It was rare to find a person who wasn't a partisan who didn't like him (and most partisans did, too, even if they found his DEEDS reprehensible).

I'm not sure what goes into it, but it's definitely not all about how a person LOOKS.

I love Noam Chomsky, but he's about the least charismatic person I've ever watched talk. I wish he were charismatic! Obama is and was very charismatic, too, as was Reagan. Bush: not so much. Luckily, he had money. Shrub was a little more charismatic, but he was so dumb that people were harsh with him.

I have no doubt that Hubbard was very charismatic. He certainly had me charmed. I liked nothing better than listening to his "lectures" when I was a Scientologist. I still like listening to him when he talks, though I don't weight anything he says as factual.

Interesting point. I don't really know what makes a person charismatic. I've been described as charismatic, and I certainly have managed to get my way when there was no reason people should go along with me in the past. I should really put it to use for some cause I believe in.

I remember hearing about some people who really tried to polish Noam up a little. He was having no part of it. The only thing important to him is WHAT he says, the content of his ideas.

Im kinda glad he resisted the frantic notion of "getting his brand straight" that seems so out of control these days. That makes him charismatic to me

 

[tmangrove]

Oh, no! The org can't be smoke free or it will wither and die. Ya gotta have smoke with the mirrors if you want to sell your snake oil.

Plus, not smoking enough causes cancer. Everyone knows that.

 

[Irayam]

I liked nothing better than listening to his "lectures" when I was a Scientologist.

This is interesting. I would have also liked the lectures by El Con but when I was on course, I was not understanding english well enough to be able to listen to the lectures in the original version. They were translated in French and the different people who were speaking on these lectures were soooo boring.
Imagine the guy or the girl speaking in front of a microphone, alone in a room, reading the lecture translated in French... No audience so no reactions. Absolutely no charisma...
All I remember from these lectures (this one was from HQS) is a female voice saying, at the end of a sentence "... et finira pour toujours dans un cercueuil." (... and will end forever in a coffin). This was about the drug addict not lucky enough to have found $cientology.

Irayam