Check out this story on Clambake

[AnonyMary]

Anyone who posts a photo of herself (as ReadyforAction did at Clambake) is at the very least conflicted about her interestg in remaining anonymous.

I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. I have not heard back on whether she cares or not that people know who she is. Maybe she wants people to know who she is so she can connect with old friends. I only know that I have seen multiple first time posters to forums, in the excitement of it all, make mistakes in disclosures and not be aware of it until after the fact. Even when conflicted.

I recently had a member PM me, so desperate to just speak out in name and about experiences, but in the end it would have caused many problems for the person. I was glad to help by being someone to listen, in private and in confidence.

Lets not forget how frustrating it is o wake up and want to speak out but you still fear the 'consequences'. And how hard it is to first speak out, anonymously or not. Years of memories and emotions bottled up, suppressed. Then POP! Keep in mind that it was only a little while before that ReadyforAction was forced to reveal to her husband that she was a former scientologist, after the church started calling her home! I know how that is. I never told my husband ( former, now) nor my kids until the last few years and I have been out for over 20 years.

I say lets wait to hear from her in a couple of days and see what's up.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

snipped.

Where, for example?

Where better to be believed than in the "ex" scientology community which is filled with similar stories and where someone who writes of their own horrific experiences is likely to gain sympathy, acceptance, and belief? and the more horrific the story, the more sympathy, admiration (wow, you survived that!) and respect (wow, what courage you have to disclose this!) there is to be gained.

I still won't make a judgement as to the veracity of this woman's story, BUT i think people who invent such tales would not consider they were "going to all this trouble" as you put it.

A much (currently) busier ex scio message board, a book or perhaps via the media? There are some seriously trashy magazines out there that are not known for fact checking.

I think (if she's making it up or embellishing deliberately) that she is going to trouble to make it appear true but I understand how you see it and have known liars myself and seen the desperation to be believed even after it became clear to all that they were lying.

I genuinely respect many of the people here that dis-believe her and especially you, and I'm learning much about how different people view things but at this point I'm comfortable with my own guesswork.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Some of it was far fetched but the part the wowed me was actually the part about her acceptance and free ride at Juilliard (which someone else noted she misspelled). I though, gee, the long arm of scientology knows no bounds.
They really do have connections everywhere. You have to audition to get into Juilliard and she was busy being a spy in the s.o. and had a child and abusive husband so where did she even get the time to practice? I don't even play an instrument but always wanted to. Perhaps they could get me admitted as well.

And, if all this is true, any residual sympathies for Heber or Mary Sue may have evaporated. And Yvonne... really? And them needing to keep the C/S on post in spite of being a rapist, so get rid of the rape victim? Repeated rapes and that scared to leave...not sure I buy that.

The rest of the stuff I though possible....the witness protection...a bit off, but I wouldn't put anything past the cult when it comes to protecting themselves. The part about ripping up her folders was creepy. It sounded like she thought this was a good thing. (In reality, yes and no.) I though it was more like destroying evidence and if I were her, I'd want to know there was some evidence somewhere.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

I heartily agree Anonmary! Let her get it out of her system first, if that is what she is trying to do.
There are a few things people should maybe take into consideration, first and formost is that it is not an easy thing to dig into your own head many years later, and try and uncover that which you have hidden and buried, put onto a back-burner.
As I see this story unfolding and being told, I do not think that anominity is a concern per-se, far too many details, even photos. I really don't think that the poster was hiding much, and pretty sure she is aware of that fact, many details are given that could be cross-checked should verasity be in question, that's another issue too. So the person didn't join over there under their true name, not a concern, how many here who have told their tales still use their nicknames? Just about everyone, and over there too as far as I've observed. Take time to look back peoples, and see how you each felt when you decided to tell your own stories. To make that an issue of any kind is sortta 'meh' imho.
Compaints about her ( I are assuming its a her, pretty sure it is) telling about being raped and abused. Holy-hell! Is there a standard method of explaining such things? Please understand violence victims, it ain't all easy-peasy-tell-all, lordy, you want graphic details or what-ever, then use your imaginations.
Her take on LRon, well who knows? There's so much strange and bizarre involved with the old demented windbag, and he had his fingers in all sorts of weird and crazy shit. A first hand account with dealing with the fuck is an almost impossible thing to prove/dox, and must be taken with some form of tolerance. I guarantee there are stanger stories out there, but who the hell would believe 'em?
Which brings me to my next point, where does one tell their stories? She chose over there, what if she had chosen over here? There is so much crazy involved in anything scientology, y'all should know, that the degree of hesitation going to authorities, media, general discussion forums, is a frightening thing, who'd believe such insane tales?
Personally, after reading and re-reading the thread over at OCMB, I am not jumping on any sort of bandwagon or such, or defending the story as absolutely true by any means, but I find that some of the reasoning here kind of 'higher-than-thou' over-the-top skeptical. There are those who stopped reading after LRon stuffs? Why? Is the insanity so hard to believe? I know not.
Sure it could be an elaborate troll, it could be somebody with tonnes of info putting together a fabrication, It could be somebody wanting pats and hugs (hell iffin they wanted hugs they should've come here lol jk jk), but for the life of me I cannot fathom that sort of effort.
Remember that over the years past, and over the years to be, there are going to be many more people coming out of the woodwork to tell their versions of events. There are going to be many similarities to other's stories as well, just because the fuckery seems to go through the whole system, as per Dr. Ron. Its a huge onion.
Anyhow, another wee bit of blather from moi, this is not meant as an affront to anyone in particular btw, but is just my take thus far on a thread somewhere else, and how we have reacted, frankly I am somewhat discouraged by some of it, not sure.
I say let the story finish, if its some sort of elaborate troll it'll end up becoming apparent, if its somebodies heartfelt, soul-cleansing, rendition, then that should become obvious as well.
Let the story be told.

Remember, it's scientology, nuttier that any peanut butter, faster than a disintegrating Org.. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Kk, am done.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Some of it was far fetched but the part the wowed me was actually the part about her acceptance and free ride at Juilliard (which someone else noted she misspelled). I though, gee, the long arm of scientology knows no bounds.
They really do have connections everywhere. You have to audition to get into Juilliard and she was busy being a spy in the s.o. and had a child and abusive husband so where did she even get the time to practice? I don't even play an instrument but always wanted to. Perhaps they could get me admitted as well.

And, if all this is true, any residual sympathies for Heber or Mary Sue may have evaporated. And Yvonne... really? And them needing to keep the C/S on post in spite of being a rapist, so get rid of the rape victim? Repeated rapes and that scared to leave...not sure I buy that.

The rest of the stuff I though possible....the witness protection...a bit off, but I wouldn't put anything past the cult when it comes to protecting themselves. The part about ripping up her folders was creepy. It sounded like she thought this was a good thing. (In reality, yes and no.) I though it was more like destroying evidence and if I were her, I'd want to know there was some evidence somewhere.

emphasis mine


We all make spelling mistakes (lol) and I've no doubt about the measures the cult would go to to keep the income coming in (like keeping a rapist on post) and trying to 'handle' the victim sounds very familiar (Hello Jan Eastgate).

 

[olska]

A much (currently) busier ex scio message board, a book or perhaps via the media? There are some seriously trashy magazines out there that are not known for fact checking.

I think (if she's making it up or embellishing deliberately) that she is going to trouble to make it appear true but I understand how you see it and have known liars myself and seen the desperation to be believed even after it became clear to all that they were lying.

I genuinely respect many of the people here that dis-believe her and especially you, and I'm learning much about how different people view things but at this point I'm comfortable with my own guesswork.

At this point, I neither believe nor disbelieve the story -- I don't have an opinion on the veracity of her story, and even if I did, my opinion doesn't prove or disprove anything. I already know that scientology is ALWAYS worse than we think! If this woman is getting some relief by telling this story, that's good... if she later wants to join the (media) circus and take her act on the road, power to her -- the more the merrier.

Still, it's a fact that anyone can create any story they want and forward it on the internet, so I look somewhat skeptically at much of what gets posted on the 'net, and am pretty much past being surprised by anything -- especially by the past and ongoing crimes committed in the name of "scientology."

While I find the discussion about pathological liars quite interesting, it is, I think, a separate and more general issue, and a derail of this thread; therefore,
I apologize if anything I wrote on that subject cast doubt on someone's legitimate story -- I really did not mean to do that.

 

[Panda Termint]

There have been several comments/questions along the lines of, "Why would someone do this sort if thing, if it's mostly untrue/exaggerated/embellished?" There have been a few ideas put forward in response.

I think it's a good question to consider, especially in the light of the CofS' current rebuttal stance/strategy (ie. "Lies, lies, lies!") concerning other stories being told at this time.

I'm quite content to wait it out with my reasonable "Time will tell" attitude but I just thought the above was worth mentioning.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

There have been several comments/questions along the lines of, "Why would someone do this sort if thing, if it's mostly untrue/exaggerated/embellished?" There have been a few ideas put forward in response.

I think it's a good question to consider, especially in the light of the CofS' current rebuttal stance/strategy (ie. "Lies, lies, lies!") concerning other stories being told at this time.

I'm quite content to wait it out with my reasonable "Time will tell" attitude but I just thought the above was worth mentioning.

True, cult deviousness knows no bounds! I wouldn't put anything past the cofs ... but I doubt it in this case, would they really put a spotlight on 'snow white'?

 

[Panda Termint]

Amen!

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

True, cult deviousness knows no bounds! I wouldn't put anything past the cofs ... but I doubt it in this case.

Too many times: Truth is Stranger than Fiction.

I could no more write that "Perils of Pauline" plot if I tried.

Too many parts of the puzzle can be fact checked.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

--snipped--
Personally, after reading and re-reading the thread over at OCMB, I am not jumping on any sort of bandwagon or such, or defending the story as absolutely true by any means, but I find that some of the reasoning here kind of 'higher-than-thou' over-the-top skeptical. There are those who stopped reading after LRon stuffs? Why? Is the insanity so hard to believe? I know not.

Your points are very good.

By way of clarification, the reason I stopped reading had nothing to do with incredulity about or underestimating any degree of criminality or evil that Hubbard/Scientology is capable of. I would be fully prepared, for example, to accept the possibility that "mankind's greatest friend" attempted to or in fact had committed murder. And there is more than credible information which has come to light which clearly evidence the fact that he did make such attempts with squirrels and Paulette Cooper.

Nothing outrageous surprises when researching Scientology but it was a plethora of other factors that brought me to the conclusion that much or all of this story was manufactured. I am not going to take the time to detail how I arrived at my own opinion of this and have no problem with others who think it is or may well be true. Just opinions.

As far as your concern that having an opinion that it is "higher-than-thou over-the-top skeptical" hoax, I will simply say this. I long ago turned the sensitivity knob on the hoax meter up to 11 and it hasn't been wrong yet.

If it turns out that her story is factual, I might in fact turn it back down to 10. Or not. Finding a "false read" once in 10,000 times is probably well worth the other 9,999 discoveries.

 

[Gottabrain]

Let her get it out of her system first, if that is what she is trying to do.
There are a few things people should maybe take into consideration, first and formost is that it is not an easy thing to dig into your own head many years later, and try and uncover that which you have hidden and buried, put onto a back-burner. ...I find that some of the reasoning here kind of 'higher-than-thou' over-the-top skeptical. Kk, am done.

Ogs, you've made some good points and I see where you're coming from. In fact, I get the other posters' views, too. I'm sorry if I've offended your sensibilities by what you see as over-skepticism. I was giving my honest opinion and some general reasons for it.

I feel strongly about this, based on many things and don't care to go into any more detail than I already have because some find it upsetting that this particular story is not entirely accepted by all at face value.

I see and have considered the dangers of a lack of compassion toward the person on my part because I don't believe most of the story, but also hope you can see the dangers of misplaced compassion and internal conflict if a new, unknown poster tells a wild tale that is mostly untrue.

Those who held back judgement altogether were probably the wisest, but I am also willing to be proven wrong if that proves to be the case later. That doesn't change my opinion now, though. I'm not a cold or uncaring person but hold a hard line for those who might abuse my sympathies. I'm truly sorry if that offends you, but it has worked well for me in life.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

Thanks GB, I wasn't offended... really... at all, just my meagre attempt to slow down the train a bit with a call for some restraint, and hey, iffin ma is servin' up some crow pie, well best be getting me granny's big whoopin' spoon~ less bites

 

[Gottabrain]

Thanks GB, I wasn't offended... really... at all, just my meagre attempt to slow down the train a bit with a
call for some restraint, and hey, iffin ma is servin' up some crow pie, well best be getting me granny's big whoopin' spoon~ less bites

You're a luv, Ogs.... and you've succeeded in slowing the train, too.

And you can hand granny's spoon right over to me iffin I'll be needin it later.

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

Ogs, you've made some good points and I see where you're coming from. In fact, I get the other posters' views, too. I'm sorry if I've offended your sensibilities by what you see as over-skepticism. I was giving my honest opinion and some general reasons for it.

I feel strongly about this, based on many things and don't care to go into any more detail than I already have because some find it upsetting that this particular story is not entirely accepted by all at face value.

I see and have considered the dangers of a lack of compassion toward the person on my part because I don't believe most of the story, but also hope you can see the dangers of misplaced compassion and internal conflict if a new, unknown poster tells a wild tale that is mostly untrue.

Those who held back judgement altogether were probably the wisest, but I am also willing to be proven wrong if that proves to be the case later. That doesn't change my opinion now, though. I'm not a cold or uncaring person but hold a hard line for those who might abuse my sympathies. I'm truly sorry if that offends you, but it has worked well for me in life.

I just want to say, the person in question didn't post their story in this forum, it was posted somewhere else and a link was provided for us to go there and read it. No one, to my understanding, has notified this person that this thread exists, or even that this forum exists. That doesn't mean that they aren't lurking here, but my sense is that they probably aren't aware - which is a different dynamic from someone who came to ESMB for help or to tell their story. I think this is important for those who may feel guilty being skeptical or critical for what they post here. I think we should be able to say whatever we want.

She writes that she is going to someone named Ken's funeral possibly to sing and she will be back later to continue the story. I have to say, there are quite a few details that seem real in her story, but one of the things that makes me personally skeptical is related to the tone. Someone has just posted his/her story here on the site under the name Enturbulator and, I don't know why, but the feeling is completely different. There seems to be a sense of pain or humility from the people who really want to tell their stories, be heard, etc and who are telling the truth. Enturbulator, at least at this point, feels 100% credible. I heard the hurt and the details are there.

In terms of the thread in question - I was reading through some of it again, and she writes at one point: Scientology never let's you go. NEVER (her bold) and then after that big dramatic sentence, with a short beat she writes: Now, back to the story. Like, "We'll return to Scientology: The Mini Series, after these messages."

I don't know why, but a story filled with serial rape, rampant domestic abuse, violence, so called "black Dianetics", cancer, etc, it just feels weird to say "the story" and not "my story"... I don't feel any pain, and that's what tips me off. It sucks, but some people love the attention of telling grandiose stories in order to garner sympathy or admiration. LRH, anyone?

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

You're a luv, Ogs.... and you've succeeded in slowing the train, too.
And you can hand granny's spoon right over to me iffin I'll be needin it later.

Good lord no! *cowers in corner and pees*

 

[Gottabrain]

Good lord no! *cowers in corner and pees*

Oi! Not what I meant ya big cuddly bear you! Oh just give me a hug already...

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I feel strongly about this, based on many things and don't care to go into any more detail than I already have because some find it upsetting that this particular story is not entirely accepted by all at face value.

Well, I'm not one of them ... and doubt they exist.

Those who held back judgement altogether were probably the wisest.

I agree with you on this 100% ... all is well, I expect we're all learning things.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

putting this time period in LA, especially at ASHO into perspective.

I've asked others who were at ASHO at that time. The only name Sr. C/S that comes up is Rocky Stump, but Rocky was declared before this time period.

I found this post from ARS, that I am going to paste in in full, even though there is long winded miscellaneous stuff besides names and general culture of the times.


From: Warrior <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,nl.scientology
Subject: Re: Ron: the increase will be 10% per month
Date: 15 Jun 1997 00:44:44 -0700
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Huge
>Cajones Remailer) writes:
>
>[LRH ED 284 (Hubbard's "SOLUTION TO INFLATION") snipped]
>
>
> I remember the 16 September '76 ED, %10 per month price increases
> to continue indefinitely.
>
> I was appalled. I don't recall the price of a 12-1/2 hour intensive
> in September '76,

It was $500 US in LA. In 24 months the same 12 1/2 hr "intensive
of auditing" was going for $4924.85. The stated reasons for the price
increase were of course so that the quarters could improve in appearance,
so that staff could get paid better and so the orgs could deliver better
service to the public. In reality the orgs planetwide continued to deliver
less in exchange for the MONEY pouring in. This resulted in a "backlog"
of delivered "services". This resulted in a huge accumulation of unused
"credits on account" in the orgs. Unused credits in Scientology are called
"PPRs" (pre-payments received). Treasury divisions actually keep this as
a stat and report it to upper level management.

At any rate, Scientology went *seriously* "out-exchange".

Operation Snow White was in its' prime during this time. The Op on
Paulette Cooper was going on. Scientology had just bought the Ft. Harrison
Hotel in Clearwater. And they were soon to buy the Cedars of Lebanon
Hospital complex at the time LRH ED 284 INT was released. In fact, Wayne
Marple was fired on a "mission into PAC" to find suitable headquarters
and to get the orgs moved into a central organization.

> but I do recall being shocked that people actually
> paid the high price before the rate increase. And then to raise the
> rate, well, some people did actually buy it. I do remember feeling that
> they were real chumps.

The increase in prices was to offset the lack of public coming into
the orgs. Initially in 1976 there were some "highest evers" in orgs' "GI".
Then an "out-exchange situation" occurred. Scientology was taking in
HUGE amounts of MONEY but was delivering very little in return. One
could even argue that what was being delivered was an "overt product".
Lots of people got declared "SP" or had their "certificates" cancelled --
Gary Epstein at AOLA got declared "SP" for "feeding cognitions" to public
"pcs" so they would "attest" to their "OT level" sooner. Rocky Stump got
declared SP too. He had been trained at Flag and had been heavily promoted
in the "Auditor Mag" as an "HSST auditor and case supervisor", a "case-
cracker", a "top-notch auditor", "POWER C/S", etc. Paulettee Cohen got
declared for "suppressive acts". She was "found" to be "a who" with regards
to scores of Sea Org staff being assigned to the "RPF" as supposed "RSers",
when in fact the "RSes" had been "dirty needles". It was said that Paulette
had "MUs" on reading "dirty needles" as "RSes".

Some said that the reason for the PAC RPF being the largest organization
in PAC was due to the need for a cheap labor force to rennovate the complex.
I agree with this statement. I do not think it was an accident of one "SP"
that over a hundred staff were on the RPF in PAC at one time. Flag
management KNEW what was going on in PAC and condoned it for a long time.
I know this because I wrote "Knowledge reports" to Flag and letters to
"Ron". And at that time I was an "admin" person. I knew from reading
LRH "policy and bulletins" that 77% of my org's staff were NOT "SPs"!!!

I mean, how convenient!! In one week, 77% of my org's execs went to the
RPF!!! Later, management said "there has been an injustice" and a "mission
is being fired into PAC to establish a Board of Review to verify all the
"RSes". I mean come on, ASHO's "best Sea Org, Flag-trained, Class IX C/S"
Barbara Rubio was ordered to the RPF as an "RSer", and she refused to
report! She knew she wasn't an "SP".

> We had no trained auditors, they'd blown. And we were having
> trouble training any, the course sup had blown too. The flag rep
> at the time (Nancy Helgeson) had traded our word clearer to some
> LA-based org for her husband (Steve Helgeson).

You probably knew Steve Strode at LA Org then, Steve.

> Steve promptly started
> dicking the female auditors in his ivory tower during late night
> cram sessions. Our flag trained ethics officers had blown immediately
> after returning from flag, too. My senior exec was known to have had
> shock treatment AND sex with animals. And our fearless leader,
> Doreen Casey, OT-7, completely nuts, she looked exactly like the
> typical storybook wicked witch, busy busy busy. She was stealing
> money from the org's accounts, or so her comm ev goldenrod did state.
> Doreen had two-inch fingernails, skinny, with small breasts, missing
> a few teeth, long black hair, and she would scream "Bring me my tea!".
> (Oat tea?) Heh, she had us all terrified. I do think she looked a little
> sexy, always dressed in black, always appearing wild eyed and hungry.
> But John Mattoon, GO/OSA big boy was getting all of Doreen, too
> bad for old Peter Gilliam.
>
> Where is old John Mattoon these days. I'd guess he's about unproductive
> enough for an offload pretty soon. Old, must be about 60. Not likely
> to be in good health, due to the scieno lifestyle, bad diet, no
> medical care, smoke smoke smoke.
>
> Yes, yes, yes. Some picketers remarked on how the average age of
> the scienos is now . . . well, just plain old. And the young
> ones are at a tremendous disadvantage educationally, hubbard
> study tech, great anti scientology instrument.
>
> I left staff in the spring of '77. I do not know what became of the
> %10 per month increases. One likely possibility is that the public
> were conned and controlled by scaring them into buying sooner rather
> than later, "before the next price increase". Then they were probably
> conned again by offers of one-time-only price roll backs.

"BUY NOW" was *VERY* HEAVILY pushed ! There was a fantastic push by
management to bring pressure on people to sell their houses or get a
second mortgage, or obtain several credit cards for the purpose of
giving all they could to Scientology. "Secure *this* months' prices"
became the motto used by the "regges" as well. Lots of individual
Scientologists declared bankruptcy after "MAXING-OUT" their credit
and finding themselves with a cash flow problem.

> None of it worked to help anyone spiritually, and we could not even
> deliver our tremendously flawed product.

True as ever!! Scientology couldn't deliver an "OVERT PRODUCT". They
had and still have trouble keeping "auditors" and C/Ses" on staff. And
the orgs were accumulating an even HUGER backlog of unused "APs" (advance
payments) due to lack of "service", "overts" on their "money flows" and
a "failure to deliver what was promised"!!!

Criminal, even by Scientology's "standards"...

> scientology, flush it.

Seconded.

Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
>
>
>
> Steve Whitlatch
> [email protected]
>