Child of Scientologists: hi

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
To be brutally frank CP, when it comes to matters of of sanity I wouldn't say you're the most highly qualified person to talk about the subject.
SANITY?

Baby I am one CRAZY old hippie!!!

Of course any good Englishman such as yourself will say I'm several crumpets short of a proper tea.

And why are you trying to invoke some sanity clause?

You're old enough to know there ain't no sanity clause.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hmph!

My best post on this thread isn't here...

I must have typed it up and then failed to post it

Anyway...

I was saying to LC (is it "he" or "she"? as LC seems to be warmhearted, generous, gentle-spirited and intelligent I tend to think of LC as her parents daughter but if LC is their son they must have exceptionally gifted as parents) the thing for you to do is try to protect your parents nest egg. Suggest to them they should pay for their "bridge" with current income. Try to get them to take the training route and do it at the LOCAL org. Keep them away from Clearwater if you can.

You need to be very diplomatic...

More on that in my next post

But quite seriously, if you play your hand well you can prevent CoS from hoovering your parents primary assets



Edited...

The post in question is on the other LC thread and I'll expand on it there
 
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strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
SANITY?

Baby I am one CRAZY old hippie!!!

Of course any good Englishman such as yourself will say I'm several crumpets short of a proper tea.

And why are you trying to invoke some sanity clause?

You're old enough to know there ain't no sanity clause.
For the benefit of any millennials here who have no idea what the fuck you're talking about ...

 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I didn't steal that laugh line from the Marx brothers Stratsie...

I stole it from Walt Kelly's "Pogo"

Walt stole it from the Marx brothers.

I don't know who they stole it from.

Probably Hubbard.
 
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CaliMule

Work Hard and Bray
but i guess i want advice. or someone to talk to. assurance. or anything from someone that understands from the inside.
My advice:

1. Realize that your parents remain reasoning people who pay attention to whether what they want out of life is being furthered or hindered by their beliefs and religious adherence. That they don't IMMEDIATELY back off from Scientology when it begins to disserve them is NOT a negation of this fact. It merely reflects human nature in not ditching something one is committed to at the first sign of trouble.

2. Religious points of view contemplate ULTIMATE importances, and subsidiary matters often will not control decision making. Yes, Scientology violates laws and flouts standards of civilized decency, but compared to matters of ULTIMATE importance these are tolerable in the mind of a religious adherent (of any creed). God's ideas have always prevailed over human notions in the mind of the religious adherent. You have to be patient to allow them to weigh whether or not Scientology is a worthwhile description of fundamental reality or the nature of existence according to their own thinking. You can't make this decision for them.

3. Avoid being lured into the smugly self-important and cock-sure attitudes of very hostile "critics". They are more about self-gratification than about critical thinking, in the main. They have trouble persuading anyone not already pre-commited to like and approve of the juvenile rants they engage in.

4. Realize the most important psychological advice you can read up on is NOT from bigoted anti-cultists scholars. It is from people who study cyclical abuse, such as often occurs in domestic abuse or child abuse situations. They understand what is going on with people staying trapped in bad relationships much much better than half-assed thinkers who rattle on about "brainwashing" and other such loaded language terms that anti-cult fanatics don't seem to realize genuinely is half-assed bullshit they find gratifying.

5. Be a friend, most of all. Be a great listener and use a friendly tone of voice. Trying to be forceful and hostile enough to get someone to abandon a religion they wish to pursue is historically a losing game, whether concerning Scientology or any other faith.

I've been listening to anti-cult bigots for decades and their advice is crap. What I've said above, especially about abusive situations resembling domestic abuse, is the distilled essence of the success I've had in helping people I care about who are still trapped in Scientology.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
It doesn't sound like your parents have been involved for a long time. While you may attribute their life improving perhaps it is just that period of life in general that people make such advances. 30-50 years of age is the prime portion of life for most in which they really begin to do well. And yes scn can help push one onto a better path by pushing ethics and productivity. (Although there isn't a more unproductive bunch than scn staff - lol, witness how much they get paid.)

I was involved for over 30 years and my life certainly got better over that time-span financially, until I was giving them roughly 50% of everything I made.

Co$ IS a cult. It is THE premier example of a CULT on earth at this moment.

The main problem is they promise they have the route to return your god-like abilities and THAT is a TOTAL LIE. They cannot and never have. But people will pay hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars to them in the hope they will. To reach OT VIII today costs at a minimum $250,000 and likely double that. Because they will suck every dime they can from you for "donations" to IAS and IDEAL ORGS to up you status in the group. Very spiritual indeed to up your status I might add.

I've lost 2 children to disconnection.

You've been given good advice - don't rock the boat. Because push come to shove and your parents will disconnect. Its just part of the deal of being a good scilon.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Probably the best thing would be to do your best to stay in communication, and be somebody that each can talk to about any concerns or doubts that come up.

One frequent situation is for there to be a couple, where each is having doubts, but is afraid to express those doubts to the other because they don't want the other to be compelled to report on "disaffection". And so, they wind up staying in even when they both secretly want to leave.

Be somebody who each of them can safely talk to about the crazy shit they see at the org.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I guess I might as well re-post this old post here, just to be thorough:

____________


Making blanket negative statements about every bit and piece of Scientology may feel good, but it may also drive a person further into Scientology.

___________


When confronted by a person, who is in the process of being lured into Scientology, and has just pleasantly used his newly acquired "Comm Course" skills to establish communication with, and happily extrovert, a withdrawn little old lady neighbor, and is very pleased with himself about his good deed, and equally as impressed with his success applying the "tech," don't go

300px-Profanity.svg.png

on the person, because that probably won't help free him from the sucking power of Scientology.

The fact is the little old lady did feel better, and was cheerfully extroverted.

Recognize that, and then take it from there.
 

Dotey OT

Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE
While I was in, I didn't think that I was wrong. As a matter of fact, I thought I knew something that most people did not know, and had an insight into the secrets of the universe. I thought that it was the most special thing about me, that I was aware of it and would take advantage of it. I was willing to give my time, to give most of my money. I was willing to do without, and for my family to do without. I really thought it was making me a better person. I thought that to really get the answers, you had to GO UP THE BRIDGE. That was the answer to everything - or so I was told.

I was a good person that got involved with it.

What was it that Bill Franks said? It takes in and takes advantage of good people and fools them?

It's so complicated and tangled, it doesn't take a very long time to get entangled. It looks like it takes a bit longer to get out and untangled. I've only been out for a couple of years, I see that other folks have been out much longer and still working on it.
 
Take my advice as just another idea in the mix, because I have never knowingly met a Scientologist, but I would think that it's good to occasionally call out nonsensical/destructive things that you hear from your parents, and talk about it with them as far as they are willing to. This may help keep their common sense engaged. I would not say something like, "That's crazy, and what's more, I read that X, Y and Z also happen in Scientology", but I might say something like "That doesn't make sense to me, because...." or "That sounds counter-productive, because...", and the most important, "Why?"
 

Wilbur

Patron Meritorious
I guess I might as well re-post this old post here, just to be thorough:

____________


Making blanket negative statements about every bit and piece of Scientology may feel good, but it may also drive a person further into Scientology.

___________


When confronted by a person, who is in the process of being lured into Scientology, and has just pleasantly used his newly acquired "Comm Course" skills to establish communication with, and happily extrovert, a withdrawn little old lady neighbor, and is very pleased with himself about his good deed, and equally as impressed with his success applying the "tech," don't go

300px-Profanity.svg.png

on the person, because that probably won't help free him from the sucking power of Scientology.

The fact is the little old lady did feel better, and was cheerfully extroverted.

Recognize that, and then take it from there.
I'm a little late in replying to this post, BUT:

I think this is a key point. If participation in Scientology, in the early stages, didn't create 'wins', then there would be no need for anyone to post on this board - the organisation would have ceased to exist. It's no good telling someone who has just joined Scientology "It's a cult: they only want your money". People told me that when I first joined, and the internet didn't even exist then. I compared what they were saying to the new understandings of life I was getting, the gains I had from TRs (and also the promises of much bigger further gains to follow), listened to the warnings of the church about listening to nattery low-toned people, and decided that I would continue to give the CoS the benefit of the doubt.

The people warning me about Scientology had no personal knowledge of it. And besides, by the time you have read a few Scientology books, you can see that Hubbard had worked out a complete system of thought about the mind and spirit. And many of the ideas are very seductive. Discovering a group that tells you "you are an immortal being with infinite power. It's just a matter of recovering the use of that power" taps into the fundamental optimism that, especially, young people have, and perhaps older people who have gone down a blind alley in their life, and want a new start.

Telling these people that Hubbard was a fiction-writing conman doesn't gel with what they are observing and experiencing in their early days in Scientology, though it will be retained in the back of their mind as a vague doubt, to be added to as they observe more and more of the 'out points' of the organisation. When people told me "ah, he was a science-fiction writer, so OF COURSE the whole thing is a con", it made me vigilant, but it didn't persuade me that the fascinating body of spiritual writing that he had produced (and that I was gradually consuming) was bogus.

What WOULD have gotten my attention in those early days would be if someone who had reached into the OT levels and left had narrated to me their career in Scientology, and why they eventually left. I would have had to hear the whole story, otherwise I could have dismissed them by saying "ah, they were just out-ethics" or "they restimulated and didn't handle an implant on their OT levels" or whatever. It did get my attention when I heard that some OTV or OTVII had gone inactive. It didn't compute. Why would someone who had gone stably exterior and had whole-track recall suddenly decide to abandon Scientology? But I couldn't get their story, because Scientology kept you well away from people like that.

If I'd learned that Class VIIIs and Class XIIs and OTVIIIs had left in large numbers, then that really would have gotten my attention. But none of this information was accessible to a CoS member. I heard vague rumours that there were squirrel groups delivering OTIII, but people in the Org said that the version of OTIII they were running was squirrelled, and they didn't get any gains on it. It caught my attention, but it wasn't enough to make me think about leaving.

Anyway, the point is that screaming at someone that Scientology is bullshit, lies, the product of a conman's imagination, totally false, etc., is not going to induce someone to leave. And in fact, it will make a Scientologist less likely to listen to ANY critic. In my view, it's better just to give an honest, wins-and-all rendition of Scientology to someone. I wouldn't have stayed in the church for a few (expensive) wins: I wanted the state of OT.

When I was on the Purif, a public Scientologist who was on the fringes sometimes gave me a lift to the org. When I was about to join staff, he just casually commented that I had lots of talent, was young, and had a great career ahead of me. Was I SURE I wanted to join staff? Although his comment made me suspicious that he might be an SP, I could also see that he was genuinely concerned, but in a gentle, non-pushy way. His lack of pushinesss did give me pause for thought. I don't think you can drag someone out of Scientology. All you can do is give them a balanced rendition of the facts. The guy I speak of didn't really KNOW the facts, so he couldn't say enough to dissuade me from joining staff. But I am grateful to him for trying anyway. But armed with the facts, he could have dissuaded me, by just gently presenting a balanced view of what being on staff entailed.
 

Irayam

Patron with Honors
I don't think you can drag someone out of Scientology.
Absolutely!

It's like someone taking heroin. This person feels extraordinarily well the first few times. Then comes the moment when the dark side of the drug takes over and the junkie's life turn to hell.

And like $cientology, you can't force someone to stop using heroin. It is a decision that must come from itself.

Unfortunately, as with opiates, some damage is to be expected once withdrawal is successful and the wonderful moments of the beginning are very little consolation...

Irayam
 

vain_shields217

Patron with Honors
hi,
I'm here because my parents are current scientologists, they are not ex-scns and i am not one at all

but i am doing my own research on scientology because they are completely taken in by it
training and working and getting educated by the church
so i found this forum

scientology has visably helped one of my parents when nothing else did, because they truly believed it worked and i have seen really positive effects

but i am increasingly concerned and disenfranchised with the way they see the word of lrh as god and the usual red flag warning signs of cultism beginning

not because they cannot leave but because they would not choose to. everything theyve believed in up until this point has made them perfect candidates for the scn doctrinesm and they are in full belief of the church's policies, procedures, and expectations

i so far have been really encouraging and curious and i listen and smile and nod and ive visited their church and met some people. i took the personality test, got mail, got emails. i was proud they had something.

i was taken in by the seemingly interesting alternative and functional thing that was bastardised by mass media who "doesnt want the best for us"
in a damaged world scn offers itself up as a total opposing force for the wrongs of the world

abberation is a common term in their house used to describe things
they are using more and more lingo the higher they go
but one of them was close to clear and told they were going faster than average and doing so well
all the self affirming praise for someone insecure
promises that the damage will be healed and then...results! because guess what, theyre doing better
nicer house, socializing, jobs ......but all dependent on the church

they would be delighted if i were to involve myself and ive been really encouraged to, but since doing my research and becoming sure that i would never choose to be a scn i give noncommital responses. ive never said, "no."

ive had some proof of some of the stories i keep hearing from so called "SPs" ... scientologists visiting the house, when living elsewhere driving across states to check on them when they were taking a break from things... $50 and less a week for working but receiving certain processes for free...

hallunications and thigns theyve seen and felt in sauna and auditing that ive read so much about...
promises of being flown out to flag, reaching clear, making more money when things go ideal, how the money comes back to you after donating, how pay below minimum wage is good because its based on a real ethics system thats not dependent on the us economy... it upsets me

i cant talk to them about this and i try not to think about it and writing this is making me anxious
i would be shut down if i were to say anything against their Truths
and i would be scared of being labelled SP

they promise they know me and love me when i disagree with other things we have different beliefs on klots of little things that causes some conflict and things are always okay because theyre my parents
but i do not know what would happen on this subject and i dont want to find out, i dont
i think this would break their heart if they knew i was feeling like this
i diont know if im making a good moral choice talking about this

but i guess i want advice. or someone to talk to. assurance. or anything from someone that understands from the inside.

thanks
you can tell them that David Wilcock is currently offering the entire planet all the knowledge proffered at the highest tiers of Scientology for free, by way of one tiny example: by telling his followers about the published book China's Super Psychics (by Paul Dong), he has confirmed that humans can influence matter without a causal agency in physical steps between intention and result:
china%20blind%20experiment%20pic.png


SPR website>Psi in China> that sealed matchstick has the words 'I love you' and 'mother' written on it via PK, carried out by blind Chinese children. My final thread in my own new member introduction has something even more mindblowing. I don't know how amenable your parents are to being decontaminated of their brainwashing, so I wish you all the luck in the world!
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hey, welcome to ESMB, learningconcern.
Veda, ITYIWT, and Enthetan have given you excellent advice.
The only thing I would stress is that you not divulge any information that would aid OSA in identifying you.
Good luck to you.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
There are plenty of stories on this board that detail a person's journey into and out of Scientology. The few things they all seem to have in common is the initial comfort and delight in being involved with a group that is friendly & welcoming, who seem to really have their shit together, who ooze self confidence, and who are sure they have life worked out. That was my experience too.

There also tends to be a difference in the abuses that one tends to experience depending on what level the person engages in. For example:

Public Scientologist: Tend not to be exposed to the most brutal of punishments (slave labour, forced abortions, terrible living conditions, human rights violations etc) however these are the the people who get hit the hardest financially. There are many examples of people losing their life savings, pension plans and even their homes. The more a public Scientologist gets into Scientology, the more effort is put into separating a person from their money. Then confirmation bias enters into the picture e.g. I've spent an extraordinary amount of money so this must be a great thing. Sometimes it can be a great thing. People do experience "wins" in Scientology. Some are very short lived which means "the person needs the next step and THEN they'll see real lasting change" and so it goes. More money is extracted.

Staff Member: Tend to be exposed to many & varied abuses (slave labour, very long hours (long hours at the church then longer hours outside the church working a "wog job" trying to make ends meet) abuse by seniors and false promises of auditing for free. These people are hit financially hard as well. Spending 10 years on staff making $20 per week will have lost that person the earning capacity of those 10 years (anywhere from $200,000 to $500,000 on average).

Sea Org member: Tend to experience the worst of the abuse. There are plenty of harrowing experiences documented on this board and elsewhere. They earn nothing (maybe $20 per week) and have pledged the next billion years to the cause so are willing to put up with the most gruesome of abuses

The one thing they have in common is a desire to be a better person. No one joins Scientology unless they are wanting to improve themselves & their lives. Initially Scientology does just that. I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't. The problem is for how long and at what cost?

95% of people (at a guess) leave Scientology. When they do they have different reasons for leaving. Most are due to the abuses or the lack of any real gains despite extremely high amounts of money being spent. The management of Scientology is corrupt to the core. The people your parents are speaking to and getting to know are most likely not corrupt and truly believe in the "magic" of Scientology.

What else the leavers of Scientology all have in common is disconnection. Unless you quietly just slip away (this option is open only to public Scientologists or staff members who have to jump through many expensive hoops) you will be disconnected from all your friends and family who are still in. That includes Parents, siblings, children.

As others have said before just stay close, don't offer too many opinions on it, but remain with a detached attitude about it. You're 20 so old enough to be your own person, which by the sound of it your parents already respect or they'll have put pressure on you to join. There is nothing you can say to someone who's bought into the mindset. You just have to let them do their thing. It's their lives after all.
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I left Scientology 20 years ago. And for a long time, I believed stuff just like the other people do here.

But just like I did when I got myself out of Scientology, I've gotten myself out of the Anti-Scientology views that most people here have, as well, by applying critical thinking to those, too.

I'd just like to say that you have alternative ways to interpret your time spent in Scientology than the standard anticult movement belief system allows. I found that the anticult movement beliefs I picked up after Scientology were actually more damaging to me than my earlier Scientology beliefs were.

The Church of Scientology under David Miscavige is a cult, and you should keep yourself informed of the abuses. But the beliefs these people have tend to make them very hysterical about Scientology and cults and brainwashing, and I found that's no way to go through life.

Here's a post I wrote about that on my blog:

How the AntiCult Movement Ideology Harms Ex Members

Welcome to ESMB, LearningConcern.
 
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