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Chris Shelton video channel: What is wrong with Scientology

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
No, the list I had in my hands was the IAS Memberships list, active and inactive members. It had nothing to do with book sales or personality tests, but was based purely on whether the person had ever had a membership or not, including free 6-month members. I actually don't recall the exact number of names on the list, but like I said in the video, it sure as hell wasn't anywhere in the same order of magnitude as 10 million! There was all this back-and-forth on even giving me the list and I had to practically sign in blood to get it. I was doing some project for the PAC/WUS Events Unit and I think we were looking for people to call or membership data related to the confirms or some nonsense like that. I doubt they would so easily give up the list to someone again. It was a bit of a random cycle.

Very clear answer Chris. So an IAS Memberships list, active and inactive members based purely on whether the person had ever had a membership or not, including free 6-month members. Useful information.

Of course that is TOP SECRET :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Very confidential information. Like a customer list.
Just for those not in the know, an IAS membership is a requirement to do a scientology service in an organization. I suspect a full 25% if not more of those memberships 'owners' never get past a first course. They could well be names from as far back as 1984 and even before that if we keep in mind the old timers that hung in from the 50's through early 80's but haven't done a service since. Nonetheless the ballpark figure sorta sets an upper limit even though it is somewhat harder to have any precision now as sooooooooo many have left the organization.

Thanks again Chris:thumbsup:
 

koki

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hey, thanks everyone for the great reviews on my first video effort like this. I made a Scientology recruitment video once when I was in the Church for the TC org (I doubt they use it anymore, but it was pretty good if I say so myself) but otherwise this is my first solo effort at making a video like this. It was all done by me, myself and I in my "home studio". It's a lot more work to make these things than you'd think what with having to learn how to work a camera, lights, sound and then speaking to the camera too! Anyway, thanks for the positive and immediate feedback. I didn't think anyone was even going to see it yet as I just posted it last night and haven't put a link out on it anywhere or anything. I guess someone out there really keeps their eyes open for this sort of thing! I posted it last night and went to bed and woke up this morning to have a bunch of new subscribers on my video channel and over 100 views. Not too shabby for a first night's no-work, LOL. I've got the scripts written for the rest of the parts and will start production tonight on the next one. :)
excellent. this is prove,that all one need is cam,t-shirt and a good story with facts and dox.no need for E.xtra producer,and just story. hope you will spend at least 2 or 3 parts on LRH. thank you.
 
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Bea Kiddo

Crusader
No, the list I had in my hands was the IAS Memberships list, active and inactive members. It had nothing to do with book sales or personality tests, but was based purely on whether the person had ever had a membership or not, including free 6-month members. I actually don't recall the exact number of names on the list, but like I said in the video, it sure as hell wasn't anywhere in the same order of magnitude as 10 million! There was all this back-and-forth on even giving me the list and I had to practically sign in blood to get it. I was doing some project for the PAC/WUS Events Unit and I think we were looking for people to call or membership data related to the confirms or some nonsense like that. I doubt they would so easily give up the list to someone again. It was a bit of a random cycle.

First of all, great video and really brings up good points.

I am curious about that IAS list, because I am sure there are declared SPs on it. (goldenrod in hand or not, still declared). I still have my IAS lifetime membership card.... :whistling:

But Chris, a small note from an SP: Why are you suggesting to them what they need to do to fix the church? They might listen to you and then we are all farked!!! LOL. Then you will be back in and promoted and running things... :roflmao:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Chris Shelton video channel: What is wrong with Scientology.

First video: What is Wrong with Scientology, Part I

[video=youtube_share;4ml9T25oCi0]http://youtu.be/4ml9T25oCi0[/video]

That's a very well made and presented video. No doubt it, and the following videos, will help many people.

It's aimed at those still in the organization, or those considering joining, and adopts the view that it's Policy, not Tech, that's the problem.

I understand why someone would say that - and have said that myself, on occasion, when encountering, otherwise unreachable, members of the organization - but, let's face it, it's not really so.

Stepping back a bit, firstly, Scientology, since its inception in the 1950s, has been operated according to the "tight conspiracy" model, reminiscent of organized crime and how it operates. Hubbard, perhaps while feeling excessively confident, actually published this view, in a non-confidential issue, at the back of a long policy letter, in 1967, a policy letter called the 'Responsibility of Leaders', a.k.a., the Bolivar PL, a.k.a., "Pink legs."

Policy Letters, themselves, come in three main varieties, for-PR-purposes policy letters, such as Hubbard announcing, in late 1968, the "Reform Code," "cancelling" Disconnection, Fair Game, and Security Checking. This was an example of policy used entirely for purposes of protective or defensive cover.

Next are policy letters that are actually meant to be used as policy. These can be found in the Green Volumes which, supposedly, contain all policy. However, per Hubbard's "tight conspiracy" model, there are also confidential policy writings (confidential HCOPLs) that are not in the Green Volumes.

And then there are additional, even more secretive, instructions from Hubbard, concerning how things are to done and how Scientology is to be run. These writings trump (override) the non-confidential "green on white" that the average staff member regards as "policy."

Then there's the matter of the separation of "Policy" and "Tech." This sounds good at first glance and, as explained at the top of this post, is understandable when attempting the difficult task of communicating to a member, or potential member, of the Scientology organization. But how realistic is that separation? And, even if one accepts that separation, is it true that the "Tech" is not a problem?

For example, is the 1951 book, 'Science of Survival', Tech? It contains an early expression of what later would become known as Fair Game and Disconnection. Those judged to be low on the Tone Scale are to be treated in a certain way.

Where are "anti-Scientologists" on the Tone Scale?

Mmmmm....

Well, what do all the above items have in common? They're all instructions from L. Ron Hubbard.

If one is cooperating with Hubbard's religion angle, and Hubbard's and Miscavige's religious cloaking, then all of Hubbard's explanations and instructions are "scripture."

Mmmmm...

And this is just tipping ones toe in the chilly and very problematic waters of Scientology dogma.

So, I sympathize with the dilemma of attempting to explain Scientology to Scientologists. It's not an easy task, and the video, above, does an excellent job of it. :)
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
I'm assuming that it's aimed at those still in the organization, as it does adopt the view that it's Policy, not Tech, that's the problem.

Thanks Veda.

To be very clear about this - and I'm not really up for debating it, I'm just clarifying my position - I am NOT asserting that the "tech" of Scientology is a wonderful thing or that it has any validity or truth to it of any kind. Like I said in the video, I am NOT a supporter of the tech any more.

My point is that the tech (the belief system) is not the reason that Scientology is going down the drain. Beliefs alone hardly ever bring about something's demise or downfall. Look at the logically ridiculous notions of fundamental Christianity or even Catholocism's rituals of eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood. These faith-based beliefs are not what turn people away, otherwise Christianity and Catholicism (and so many other religions - yes, I'm looking at you Thuggee Cult) would have long since gone the way of the dodo.

That's why I make the point in the video to differentiate BELIEF from OPERATIONAL POLICY.

While it may have appeal to those of an Independent mindset or those who still want to believe in Hubbard's tech, the reason I make the differentiation is not so much to appeal to them as because I truly believe that Scientology's EPIC FAIL is coming about because of the actions that policy dictates they must do. The regging, the fair gaming, the IAS, the disconnections, etc. are all points of policy which stand apart from the technology.

I hope I'm making myself clear about the difference. Like I said, I'm not here to get into a big debate about it. I just wanted to clarify my position as to I believe is bringing RCS to its ultimate demise.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Thanks Veda.

To be very clear about this - and I'm not really up for debating it, I'm just clarifying my position - I am NOT asserting that the "tech" of Scientology is a wonderful thing or that it has any validity or truth to it of any kind. Like I said in the video, I am NOT a supporter of the tech any more.

My point is that the tech (the belief system) is not the reason that Scientology is going down the drain.

Well, the tech, supposedly, is the know-how of Scientology, which is supposed to be an "applied philosophy," etc.

"Tech" strongly implies doing.

-snip-

That's why I make the point in the video to differentiate BELIEF from OPERATIONAL POLICY.

-snip-


Understood, but by affirming, so emphatically, the religion angle, which could easily be skipped over and not mentioned and still allow for the same basic presentation, you're also affirming that all of Hubbard's instructions - regardless of how they're categorized - are "scripture." That may be counterproductive to the purpose of prying apart BELIEF and OPERATIONAL POLICY.

:)
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Thanks Veda.

To be very clear about this - and I'm not really up for debating it, I'm just clarifying my position - I am NOT asserting that the "tech" of Scientology is a wonderful thing or that it has any validity or truth to it of any kind. Like I said in the video, I am NOT a supporter of the tech any more.[snip]

That's why I make the point in the video to differentiate BELIEF from OPERATIONAL POLICY.

"Johannes Brahms was deeply routed in the classical traditions of his predecessors, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. In a letter he wrote, “If we can not compose as beautifully as Mozart and Haydn, let us at least try to compose as purely.” On another occasion, while working on his First Symphony (at the late age of forty three), he wrote, “You have no idea what it is to hear the tromp of a genius over your shoulder.” Later, when someone pointed out the similarity between the theme of this symphony’s last movement and Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, he responded, “any fool can see that.”
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, the tech, supposedly, is the know-how of Scientology, which is supposed to be an "applied philosophy," etc.

"Tech" strongly implies doing.




Understood, but by affirming, so emphatically, the religion angle, which could easily be skipped over and not mentioned and still allow for the same basic presentation, you're also affirming that all of Hubbard's instructions - regardless of how they're categorized - are "scripture." That may be counterproductive to the purpose of prying apart BELIEF and OPERATIONAL POLICY.

:)

Not to put too fine a point on this, but... I think

beliefs sometimes inform behavior, but it is the behavior which is actionable.

I am perfectly free to believe in human sacrifice to the Gods, but...

when I begin constructing an altar, one would hope the authorities might register some interest.


The world is filled with odious beliefs, and some, like love, which are sublime.

It's for the marketplace of ideas to sort them out.
 

Sindy

Crusader
Thanks Veda.

To be very clear about this - and I'm not really up for debating it, I'm just clarifying my position - I am NOT asserting that the "tech" of Scientology is a wonderful thing or that it has any validity or truth to it of any kind. Like I said in the video, I am NOT a supporter of the tech any more.

My point is that the tech (the belief system) is not the reason that Scientology is going down the drain. Beliefs alone hardly ever bring about something's demise or downfall. Look at the logically ridiculous notions of fundamental Christianity or even Catholocism's rituals of eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood. These faith-based beliefs are not what turn people away, otherwise Christianity and Catholicism (and so many other religions - yes, I'm looking at you Thuggee Cult) would have long since gone the way of the dodo.

That's why I make the point in the video to differentiate BELIEF from OPERATIONAL POLICY.

While it may have appeal to those of an Independent mindset or those who still want to believe in Hubbard's tech, the reason I make the differentiation is not so much to appeal to them as because I truly believe that Scientology's EPIC FAIL is coming about because of the actions that policy dictates they must do. The regging, the fair gaming, the IAS, the disconnections, etc. are all points of policy which stand apart from the technology.

I hope I'm making myself clear about the difference. Like I said, I'm not here to get into a big debate about it. I just wanted to clarify my position as to I believe is bringing RCS to its ultimate demise.

The problem with Scientology is that what it believes, does get acted out in the real world. Religious zealots may believe there are witches that need to be burned at the stake, exorcisms via be-headings, etc but if they carry those out, that is destructive, clearly wrong (not to mention against the law). Religious beliefs can also lead to destructive behavior, clearly wrong, that still are not against the law like female mutilation in some parts of the globe. Beliefs come before the doing.

There are lots of things wrong with Scientology beliefs and then a bunch of banal stuff that approximate the beliefs of many and which are benign. Those beliefs (many swiped from other philosophies) are actually destructive too because they are the glue that binds otherwise thinking individuals to the heinous beliefs they would ordinarily question but that gets too abstract and hard to explain.

I believe you made your overall point quite well.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
The problem with Scientology is that what it believes, does get acted out in the real world. Religious zealots may believe there are witches that need to be burned at the stake, exorcisms via be-headings, etc but if they carry those out, that is destructive, clearly wrong (not to mention against the law). Religious beliefs can also lead to destructive behavior, clearly wrong, that still are not against the law like female mutilation in some parts of the globe. Beliefs come before the doing.

There are lots of things wrong with Scientology beliefs and then a bunch of banal stuff that approximate the beliefs of many and which are benign. Those beliefs (many swiped from other philosophies) are actually destructive too because they are the glue that binds otherwise thinking individuals to the heinous beliefs they would ordinarily question but that gets to abstract and hard to explain.

I believe you made your overall point quite well.

Maybe there should be another set of videos about mind control using the tech. Being on tech lines from 1989 until 2004 I may have dealt with it a little.....
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe there should be another set of videos about mind control using the tech. Being on tech lines from 1989 until 2004 I may have dealt with it a little.....

Here is a link that may help:

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=7

Dig around in it - it has a lot of information to help one understand what happened to them. Cults use similar tactics to trap people. Also, Jason Beghe explains it very well, how it worked on him. His video helped me tremendously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ytm54Rzc-s8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KHb0BZyF5Ok

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFDl6GA1DI0

[/URL]
 
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Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Here is a link that may help:

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=7

Dig around in it - it has a lot of information to help one understand what happened to them. Cults use similar tactics to trap people. Also, Jason Beghe explains it very well, how it worked on him. His video helped me tremendously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KHb0BZyF5Ok

Thank you.

I was talking about the fact that the tech is used to control people. And myself, being on the post of technical, saw it all the time, and there is lots of information to be had here specifically from the technical standpoint.... In the way that GP is doing these videos on the administrative side of the flaws, there is the side of the tech - auditing and training and how it is used as mind control. That was what I was referring to. Not to myself.

To the SUBJECT of Scientology scriptures/auditing/training, and so forth.
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you.

I was talking about the fact that the tech is used to control people. And myself, being on the post of technical, saw it all the time, and there is lots of information to be had here specifically from the technical standpoint.... In the way that GP is doing these videos on the administrative side of the flaws, there is the side of the tech - auditing and training and how it is used as mind control. That was what I was referring to. Not to myself.

To the SUBJECT of Scientology scriptures/auditing/training, and so forth.

I see what you are saying. I love that concept. Maybe Karen and J Swift could help with that project. She gets a lot of attention and people love her videos!
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Thanks Veda.

To be very clear about this - and I'm not really up for debating it, I'm just clarifying my position - I am NOT asserting that the "tech" of Scientology is a wonderful thing or that it has any validity or truth to it of any kind. Like I said in the video, I am NOT a supporter of the tech any more.

My point is that the tech (the belief system) is not the reason that Scientology is going down the drain. Beliefs alone hardly ever bring about something's demise or downfall. Look at the logically ridiculous notions of fundamental Christianity or even Catholocism's rituals of eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood. These faith-based beliefs are not what turn people away, otherwise Christianity and Catholicism (and so many other religions - yes, I'm looking at you Thuggee Cult) would have long since gone the way of the dodo.

That's why I make the point in the video to differentiate BELIEF from OPERATIONAL POLICY.

While it may have appeal to those of an Independent mindset or those who still want to believe in Hubbard's tech, the reason I make the differentiation is not so much to appeal to them as because I truly believe that Scientology's EPIC FAIL is coming about because of the actions that policy dictates they must do. The regging, the fair gaming, the IAS, the disconnections, etc. are all points of policy which stand apart from the technology.

I hope I'm making myself clear about the difference. Like I said, I'm not here to get into a big debate about it. I just wanted to clarify my position as to I believe is bringing RCS to its ultimate demise.

I go back and forth on this. I completely agree that all religions sound bat shit crazy to outsiders. We have talking snakes, dying and rising gods, offspring born from sea foam and thighs, a multitude of virgin births, and more. I also think when we've been in a cult, or close enough to one to experience real harm, we tend to see that particular organization in black and white -- where we might see others as shades of gray.

I've always maintained I don't care what someone believes in terms of theology, or dogma. Just don't shove it down my throat - or my children's -- and if you feel a need to judge please keep it to yourself. The thing that gets me about scn and the belief system is that you are supposed to pay for it. There are churches that expect members to tithe, it's true. But I don't know if they deny services/salvation if you can't or don't. At one time there was a big to-do when the catholics sold indulgences -- which is akin to paying for salvation. But even that was not the only road to salvation, the fast-track perhaps but not the only track.

So the issue with scn and beliefs comes back to money. The belief system says in order to achieve the scn brand of salvation one must go up the bridge. And to do that one must pay the going rate. Like at a large corporate store. I can't think of any religion that requires payment for services touted as the one true way to avoid spending the next trillion years alone..... in the dark and the cold.

I'm not asking you to debate GP - I get that that's not where you're at with this. Just thinking out loud.

Blanky
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Hey, thanks everyone for the great reviews on my first video effort like this. I made a Scientology recruitment video once when I was in the Church for the TC org (I doubt they use it anymore, but it was pretty good if I say so myself) but otherwise this is my first solo effort at making a video like this. It was all done by me, myself and I in my "home studio". It's a lot more work to make these things than you'd think what with having to learn how to work a camera, lights, sound and then speaking to the camera too! Anyway, thanks for the positive and immediate feedback.

I didn't think anyone was even going to see it yet as I just posted it last night and haven't put a link out on it anywhere or anything. I guess someone out there really keeps their eyes open for this sort of thing! I posted it last night and went to bed and woke up this morning to have a bunch of new subscribers on my video channel and over 100 views. Not too shabby for a first night's no-work, LOL.

I've got the scripts written for the rest of the parts and will start production tonight on the next one. :)


Cool work!

Actually I went to YouTube, eagerly looking forward to seeing Part II. Then, realized it isn't out yet. Looking forward to seeing more as they roll out. . .

While I was on YouTube, I noticed reviews/suggestions from all kinds of people!


Originally Posted by The Commodore
Well Done on your video! Be sure to re-study my tech on "overruns" so that you don't crash into this kind of BPC, which could harm your case. One video is really enough, you shouldn't make any more okay? ML, Ron.


Originally Posted by COB
Something really bothered me about your video. Strongly recommend that if you are trying to reach unprecedented orders of magnitude numbers of people on this planet, you don't film any more until the production values of your set are Ideal. (Hint: Moar columns!)


Originally Posted by Captain Bill
Don't do any more videos until your post-production can drop in aesthetics. (I have a great idea, pm me)
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
..HellYeah. How'd he dun doodat?

Critical thinking and skepticism have helped a LOT. Like, a LOT. I know it's silly to say this, but just learning that there was a thing called "critical thinking" and a subject called "skepticism" gave me a lot of help last year when I was otherwise reeling from my rejection of Scientology but didn't have any anchor in the stormy seas.

Carl Sagon, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer and a funny series of videos by Mr Diety (on youtube) helped me get some perspective. Of particular importance was Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World". That is a killer read and really helped me re-align my thinking to something akin to "normal".

Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" was practically a religious experience for me when I first read it. It's not hyperbole to say that it changed my life.

Plus, I'm just kind of an awesome guy. :coolwink: (LOL at myself on that one)
 
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Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
Thank you.

I was talking about the fact that the tech is used to control people. And myself, being on the post of technical, saw it all the time, and there is lots of information to be had here specifically from the technical standpoint.... In the way that GP is doing these videos on the administrative side of the flaws, there is the side of the tech - auditing and training and how it is used as mind control. That was what I was referring to. Not to myself.

To the SUBJECT of Scientology scriptures/auditing/training, and so forth.

I think that's a great idea Bea. Hmmm.....

This series of videos I'm making right now started from a blog article I wrote that turned out to be way too long to be posted on a blog. I tried really hard to figure out how to break it down into bloggable articles and it just wasn't working out, and then it occurred to me that video was the best medium for this message.

I have a similar article started on how sec checking and the whole concept of overt pulling and motivators and the tech of "being a victim" is an insidious and incredibly effective form of mind control that plays on a person's basic guilt and feelings of propitiation when he knows he has wronged someone else. I think there is definitely a lot to be said on that, again too much for just one or two blog articles. This could be a good idea to pursue once I'm done with the current project.
 
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