Veda

Sponsor
Really, I find Mayo's comments to be rubbish too - not that I really want to discuss it in this environment.

Nick

What parts?

There have been many threads about the subject of people going or being "Clear". There's even one with the title "The State of Clear". However, I wanted to start one up with a clarification (sorry) from former Snr C/S David Mayo.

Comes from the following link: http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html
_________________________________________________________________
START QUOTE


Clear

By David Mayo, USA.

In late 1978, the state of "dianetic clear" was announced. Within a few months two other "states of clear" were introduced: the state of "natural clear" and the state of "past life clear".

This change had two immediate consequences:

1. The number of people attesting (correctly or falsely) to having attained the "state of clear" increased enormously.

2. During and after that period, there was a considerable amount of upset and confusion about the "state of clear".


There were those who considered that a dianetic clear was not a "real clear" and that the only "real clear" was one who (like them) had done the Clearing Course. Some felt that they had gone clear in their last lifetime. Some felt that dianetic clear explained why they had never been able to run dianetic auditing successfully. A large number of auditors, C/Ses, and others felt that there were a lot of people falsely attesting to the state of clear and either

a. Felt unethical about letting the person attest, or
b. Tried to handle it and ended up involuntarily invalidating the pc. No matter how this was "handled", it has persisted as a problem. So we can at least assume that there are aspects of it that haven't been taken into account and handled.

Let us examine more closely what happened in late 1978 and early 1979. LRH was being audited and concluded that one of the things wrong with his case was that he had been audited on dianetic auditing after he had attained the "state of clear" (which he at first thought had occured in objective processing). He then issued a bulletin forbidding the running of dianetic auditing on clears and made various other technical and administrative changes.

He cancelled the state of "keyed out clear" by stating that it was the same state as "clear". He changed the definition of "clear" (and subsequently changed it several more times). He order ed that the folders of pcs (and the pcs themselves) who might have gone clear in orgs and missions be routed to Advanced Orgs. This action resulted in an emptying out of the orgs and missions and a flood of people arriving at the AOs.

At first, people were being declared clear regardless of what they thought they had gone clear on or when this had occurred. More importantly, they were being declared clear regardless of the state of case or condition they were in. In fact, one bulletin went so far as to advise that case and ethics trouble could be caused by a person having attained clear without having the state acknowledged. As a result, many persons who were declared clear were actually in very poor condition. This practice reflected badly on the "state of clear" and the workability of the tech. It caused a great deal of upset and confus ion on the subject of clear.

At that time there was a shortage of instructions on how to handle dianetic clear technically and a general lack of data on the new subject of "dianetic clear". However persons accused of mis-handling dianetic clear were handled with heavy ethics. The "invalidation of clear" was named a Suppressive Act, while permitting someone to attest falsely was also a serious ethics offense.

A step in the procedure for handling these new clears was to establish the date when the person went clear. Sometimes the date so found would be before scientology or even prior to the pc's lifetime. When LRH heard that some persons considered that they had attained the "state of clear" in an earlier practice such as Buddhism, he became very upset. He stated that the idea that a person could go clear through any other means than scientology was "suppressive". At a certain point, he also got upset at the fact that people were concluding that they had gone clear in scientology auditing. So he specified that a person can validly go clear only in dianetic auditing. He handled the "earlier than this life time" clears by deciding that they either went clear in their last lifetime in dianetic auditing (presumably if they were young enough for this to be possible) or had attained a new state he dubbed "natural clear". His new theory was that some people had never been anything but clear. However, he refused, thereafter, to issue any further clarification of what he meant by this assertion.

Throughout this period, the definition of clear and/or dianetic clear kept changing - in the direction of dilution. Thus people came to expect less and less from the "state of clear", while the number of new clears (and thus new arrivals at AOs and Gross Income) steadily increased. None of the new definitions of "clear", and none of the new techniques for handling clears or programming them for further actions, really solved any of the problems caused by the advent of dianetic clear.

It is of interest that the definition of "clear" had already been changed several times between its first definition in DMSMH (The book, Dianetics: Modern Science of Mental Health, 1950, by L. Ron Hubbard) and the time the idea of "clear" was put forth. In DMSMH, a clear was said to be 4.0 on the tone scale, with no aberrations (held down sevens), no psychoses, neuroses, nor psychosomatic illnesses. The clear was said to have eidetic recall and highly enhanced perceptions and creativity. Although this chappie didn't have any OT powers, he was definitely quite a phenomenon!

It is also significant that the attributes of a clear, as described in DMSMH, were never actually attained, although in reading DMSMH, one might be led to believe that they were. When people started attesting to clear, the definition was watered down to the vague generality "at cause over mental MEST as regards the first dynamic". This definition can mean many different things to many different people. Anyone is at least somewhat causative over his own mind. So anyone can find an interpretation of this definition of "clear" that he can attest to. The states of "MEST Clear", "Theta Clear", "Cleared Theta Clear", "Clearing Course Clear", "Clear-OT", and, finally, "Dianetic Clear", and "Word Clear" were equally absolutistic when first stated, but when people started attesting to them, the definition of each, or the criterion for allowing a pc to attest to each, was similarly watered down. This sequence has been repeated over and over throughout the history of scientology.

LRH correctly stated that absolutes are unattainable. And the notion of "clear" is an absolute. It's like the notion of "clean" or "pure". When is water pure? When it has only one part per million of arsenic and rat poop? Nowhere in the universe is there water which is 100% pure. To obtain complete Clarity would require a complete as-isness of any universe the thetan was in and a return to complete native state. Everyone does have a reactive mind - his own reactive mind. That's why one flies ruds and goes E/S and gets off BPC on anyone regardless of their point on the grade chart. The mechanics of the reactive mind continue to exist all the way up.

"Clears" have always had trouble explaining why they still act reactively at times, or a lot of the time, and why they still have problems in life and in getting along with people. The amount of mileage you can get from the notion of a "cleared Cannibal" is very limited. Even a cleared cannibal, if he were really clear, would get along wonderfully in life, never manifest misemotion, and love all his fellow beings, even as he was having their bodies for dinner!

The idea of "harmonics of clear" is quite accurate. The main reason why LRH blew up at the idea of "harmonics of clear", as expressed in the HCOB I wrote, was, as he told me, that this idea tended to leave him open to the charge that the claims he had made in DMSMH and elsewhere concerning the "state of clear" were fraudulent.

The truth appears to be that there are various stages of release, at each one of which you are clear-er than you were. A person experiencing the glee of insanity is clear-er than someone who is just completely unconscious. It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were "clear" at a certain point, and that they therefore had no reactive mind. However this assertion is a lie, and a very destructive one, one that denies case gain to a great many people and provides a too-convenient rabbit button for pc's, auditors and C/S's who are having trouble with the pc's case. The claim that case and ethics problems can be caused by being clear was:

1. Absurd on the face of it.
2. A declaration of open rabbitting season.

Trying to define "clear" is difficult because it is being done over a lie. We either have to restore the meaning of clear to its original absolute meaning (which means that there aren't any clears in existence), or we have to say that what people have attested to as clear is actually only a state of release or reduction.

We can say that the purpose of auditing is to clear aberrations and that if all aberrations were cleared, a "state of clear" would be attained. The concept of "clear" is useful as an ultimate goal, like the goal of perfect happiness or of perfect anything. It is a direction in which to continue to progress. It is not an attainable state (at least given our present level of technology).

Another part of the problem is that the states of release and clear are only subjective. Asking an aberrated person to decide when he feels or thinks that he is no longer aberrated, is asking for a delusory "cognition" from the start. At one time [ca. 1959. Ed.], LRH postulated that the state of clear could be objectively proven by the presence of a "free or floating needle" and a TA position of 2.0 (Female) or 3.0 (Male). But this was an unverified guess that did not stand the test of time.

Perhaps what we have been calling "clear" is "no longer chronically affected by engrams" or "engrams no longer in chronic restimulation." As such, the state would be more accurately described as a state of release or as a state of reduction. In other words, it would mean that the majority of a person's aberrations had gone into abeyance.

Regardless of what the state is named, the recognition that a person can continue to be come clear-er, restores hope and makes progress possible again.


END QUOTE
________________________________________________________________


Looks to me, and I agree, that the most you can say about "Clear", at this time (perhaps, ever), is that people can presently be free of restimulation, which is a fancy way of saying they have their rudiments in, or are in present time. While this is a far cry from having special abilities, or from a persistent "state", I think it IS honestly available, and a better frame of mind to be in than "persistently enturbulated with very little ability to differentiate, and loudly dramatizing". It strikes me as something which is DONE, rather than something which one IS.

The Scientology freezone uses David Mayo to give itself credibility, claiming falsely that "David Mayo was a founder (along the Captain Bill) of the Freezone," when Mayo eschewed the term "Freezone."

The Freezone also uses David Mayo by presenting Mayo's views from the early 1980s - carefully avoiding his later views, particularly his August 1986 interview http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm, where he mentioned Hubbard's statement that he [Hubbard] had "an insatiable lust for power and money."

Oh well, Here's a new idea for Scientologists: tell the truth about Scientology.

And an idea for basically honest Scientologists such as nw2394: confront the truth about Scientology. :)
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
The real truth is to be found in what LRon really was, a woman-beating, drugged-up, charlatan of epic proportions who pulled the con of a century by creating a system to not only pillage peoples from their hard earned money, but make them feel good about it too.
Prison planet.
Expendable life (because there is more later).
Mission to save the planet. (why if its so shitty?).
Ultimate 'ethics'. (ya righhhhht).
Study of 'the source' beforehand would make any semi-sane person go 'Wtf? What a load of horse poops!'

Ain't no good in it much.

(yes, my on purposely bad engrish is indeed on purpose, dats just me, so there)

:)
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
The real truth is to be found in what LRon really was, a woman-beating, drugged-up, charlatan of epic proportions who pulled the con of a century by creating a system to not only pillage peoples from their hard earned money, but make them feel good about it too.
Prison planet.
Expendable life (because there is more later).
Mission to save the planet. (why if its so shitty?).
Ultimate 'ethics'. (ya righhhhht).
Study of 'the source' beforehand would make any semi-sane person go 'Wtf? What a load of horse poops!'

Ain't no good in it much.

(yes, my on purposely bad engrish is indeed on purpose, dats just me, so there)

:)
You spoked it right :)
 

Div6

Crusader
This is, in my own opinion, a good example of how the "confidentiality" of upper level materials leads to efforts to create "acceptable truths" rather than just simply discussing different phenomenon. That LRH was hoisted by his own petard on this is just an affirmation of poetic justice.

If you frame the concept from the viewpoint that man is a "composite" being, then I think the conceptual progression becomes easier to understand:
1. Clear is the dominant being, the "I", the "awareness of awareness unit" running out their picture track. I have seen it achieved on Dianetics many times. If a pc goes "exterior" then you can call it "theta clear" but as exteriorization is not a stable thing, it really only carries the significance of having had an "ascension experience". A person can go ext at any point, so it does not mean that a person is "clear" in relation to their picture track. If they go ext before going "Clear" then the handling of Int is important. (And the subject of out-int is part of the basis of NOTS.)

Once a being is free from being the effect of his pictures, there is still the composite mass of pictures, mis-owned incidents, ser-facs, GPM's, Implant GPM's, etc to deal with. This is where solo auditing comes in. The Grades take some off the charge off of the composite. My understanding is that the Solo NOT's EP is supposed to be "no more other-determined life in the person's space"...which would probably translate to "Cleared Theta Clear". It is a longer road than even Hubbard suspected, apparently. I think it has been achieved maybe less than a dozen times that I know of through out the 60 year history of application. So marketing it to the masses is really mis-leading in that respect.

But Hubbard was all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" (It is weird some of the things that get channeled through the Tom Cruise conciousness field, as an aside.) Case gain, not so much.

"You didn't have a gain? You must be out-ethics." Nice work if you can get it.


Your mileage may vary.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
This is, in my own opinion, a good example of how the "confidentiality" of upper level materials leads to efforts to create "acceptable truths" rather than just simply discussing different phenomenon. That LRH was hoisted by his own petard on this is just an affirmation of poetic justice.

If you frame the concept from the viewpoint that man is a "composite" being, then I think the conceptual progression becomes easier to understand:
1. Clear is the dominant being, the "I", the "awareness of awareness unit" running out their picture track. I have seen it achieved on Dianetics many times. If a pc goes "exterior" then you can call it "theta clear" but as exteriorization is not a stable thing, it really only carries the significance of having had an "ascension experience". A person can go ext at any point, so it does not mean that a person is "clear" in relation to their picture track. If they go ext before going "Clear" then the handling of Int is important. (And the subject of out-int is part of the basis of NOTS.)

Once a being is free from being the effect of his pictures, there is still the composite mass of pictures, mis-owned incidents, ser-facs, GPM's, Implant GPM's, etc to deal with. This is where solo auditing comes in. The Grades take some off the charge off of the composite. My understanding is that the Solo NOT's EP is supposed to be "no more other-determined life in the person's space"...which would probably translate to "Cleared Theta Clear". It is a longer road than even Hubbard suspected, apparently. I think it has been achieved maybe less than a dozen times that I know of through out the 60 year history of application. So marketing it to the masses is really mis-leading in that respect.

But Hubbard was all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" (It is weird some of the things that get channeled through the Tom Cruise conciousness field, as an aside.) Case gain, not so much.

"You didn't have a gain? You must be out-ethics." Nice work if you can get it.


Your mileage may vary.
Tom Cruise is the ultimate on-source KSW clear in the world today. No Q&A, no postulate aberration. He takes his postulate, moves in a straight line towards his goal. and people laugh themselves silly. Why is that? It's because a cleared idiot is still an idiot, and his goals are idiotic.
 

Mystic

Crusader
As I stated, this delusion exists but momentarily.

Hallucination, fantasy, speculation, fiction, expanded fiction, delusion, paranoia, insanity, conclusions, babble, etc. etc. etc., yes all "real"... momentarily.

Batman is real.

Superman is real.

Wonderwoman is Real.

GheeBux is real.

Shazam! I say! Shazam!

No, wait, it's SHAZAM!!

Open Sesame.

Yep. All "real".

And really, really do exist.

 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
The real truth is to be found in what LRon really was, a woman-beating, drugged-up, charlatan of epic proportions who pulled the con of a century by creating a system to not only pillage peoples from their hard earned money, but make them feel good about it too.
Prison planet.
Expendable life (because there is more later).
Mission to save the planet. (why if its so shitty?).
Ultimate 'ethics'. (ya righhhhht).
Study of 'the source' beforehand would make any semi-sane person go 'Wtf? What a load of horse poops!'

Ain't no good in it much.

(yes, my on purposely bad engrish is indeed on purpose, dats just me, so there)

:)

You have elucidated many of the "real truths" about L Ron Hubbard, but this is not a thread about L Ron Hubbard, it's a thread about the idea of Clear that he presented.
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm sorry to hear this, Nick, as I for one would be interested in hearing your views on the matter. Even on those occasions when we don't agree I generally find your comments to be stimulating.


Mark A. Baker

I repeat I don't want to discuss it in this environment. Too many ya boo sucks people here to have a serious conversation.

Nick
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I repeat I don't want to discuss it in this environment. Too many ya boo sucks people here to have a serious conversation.

Nick

I don't understand why you can't just ignore the people who have nothing of import to add. Sometimes I banter with 'em, but I'm not going to let the inability of others to understand or communicate to stop ME from communicating.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Thanks for posting the Mayo article and starting this thread.



I agree.
Well, "State of Clear", as defined and hyped and promoted and then SOLD by Hubbard, is most certainly a myth. There ain't none. However, the concept of "being clear" (no capital!), could be useful, as an objective for a real therapy, in my view (as qualified in first post, at the end).


Mary McConnell
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
Having met and spoken with David I find his comments far more credible than anything you have had occasion to post. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker

I met him briefly in New Zealand in 1978.

I think Mayo's issue shows that he is uncertain about being clear himself. In the spirit of solidarity, I suggest that David Mayo sees Marty to have a review session.


In relation to the states of Clear he lists as evidence of "gradients".

Mest Clear would be a Dianetic Clear.

Theta Clear refers to being stably outside the body.

Cleared Theta Clear refers to OT.

Clear OT also refers to OT: "This is a proofed up being who no longer has a bank.."

The problem with Theta Clears was that being exterior was just the beginning and the thetan could hit various phenomena apart from running on automatic in many areas and factually having a long way to go upscale..

So there is the essential need to have somebody clear before they run OT levels. It is pretty consistent really.

I don't know why Mayo referred to "word clear" in the same list unless that was humour.

In regards to the issue where Mayo is allegedly sent in by the psychs. Somebody would have done the research on this, thus LRH or not I hold it in question. I want to see the evidence. I think he is a valuable being but he is muddying up the waters on this subject.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Ya Boo the Suck

What is really UNREAL is that minds delude themselves by hallucinating that "Clear" exists.

But, I guarantee those minds will eventually get over it.

Tis only momentary.
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
What is really UNREAL is that minds delude themselves by hallucinating that "Clear" exists.

But, I guarantee those minds will eventually get over it.

Tis only momentary.

Mystic that is probably what saved my ass in Scn. I never bought it. That is why I find such discussions quaint. The only definition of clear I can come up with is: "The end phenomenon of clear is depositing the mark's last cent into the bank account of L Ron Hubbard, the Turd."
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Well, "State of Clear", as defined and hyped and promoted and then SOLD by Hubbard, is most certainly a myth. There ain't none. However, the concept of "being clear" (no capital!), could be useful, as an objective for a real therapy, in my view (as qualified in first post, at the end).
Clear is like lucky. Both are good, but never 100% constant. Funny Hubbard never trotted that one out: The Luckiness R/D! The technical breakthrough that will blow all your barriers away, and usher in a new era of good fortune!
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Mystic that is probably what saved my ass in Scn. I never bought it. That is why I find such discussions quaint. The only definition of clear I can come up with is: "The end phenomenon of clear is depositing the mark's last cent into the bank account of L Ron Hubbard, the Turd."
That's Hubbard's private meaning of it I'm sure.
 
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