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CO$ Celebrity Goes Indie - What If...

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by JBWriter, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    Wondering if the demise of CO$ would come just a bit quicker if a celebrity were to publicly align with an Independent Scio group/individual - think so? I do.

    Think CO$ would 'wig out' and go after ('fair game') the celebrity and the 'squirrel'? I think so.

    That got me wondering about what such a defection would look like in the mainstream media, how it would 'play' to ordinary people who really know nothing/very little about "Independent Scientology", and now.....there are 100 or so questions buzzing around my head at the idea of such a development. :goodorbad:

    What if, Celebrity X wants to leave CO$, but thinks s/he'll keep credibility with his/her ticket-buying audience by embracing Indie-world - proclaiming the 'faith' aspect to be real but the 'church' to be unsatisfactory?
    [Example: John Travolta + Marty Rathbun = ____________? (Did your head explode? Mine did.)]

    Which celebrity associated with CO$ would do the most damage if s/he left and joined an Indie group/individual? I thought of TC originally, but now I'm not so sure.

    Can you imagine what the indies would do/say if such actually happened? :ohmy:

    Can't wait to read your responses! :drama:


    If this belongs in the "Scientology Celebrities" section, I'll request it be changed. :biggrin:
  2. OhMG

    OhMG Patron Meritorious

    I agree. However, getting a major public celeb (egomaniac) to admit that they were horribly wrong all those years would be nigh impossible...
  3. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    They wouldn't have to. The truth is CO$ moved to being a cult.
    Their ideals hadn't changed.
  4. OhMG

    OhMG Patron Meritorious

    It's ALWAYS been a cult.
  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    From the inception of his activity hubbard was always about making dianetics & scientology be about him. This is easily seen as apparent from his earliest practice of slapping his name on everything (HCO, HGC, HASI, etc.), to grabbing up all copyrights and trademarks in his own name, to suppressing mention of his direct collaborators in the tech, etc..

    The reason for the cult stems from this. Hubbard in his actions always was working towards the creation of a cult of personality centered on himself. It simply took time and the creation of the Sea Org ultimately to effect that result among the broader and less hubbard-centered scientology community.

    Denial of this simple fact is evidence of an unwillingness to face the truth about hubbard. He was not by any means a "good" man, whether or not he was as "evil" as his worse detractors maintain.

    Mark A. Baker
  6. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    Agreed - no one likes to admit they're "horribly wrong" about anything, especially for holding an honest opinion for a long period of time. And maybe, as you say, celebrities (including those associated with CO$) have egomania, too, in varying degrees.

    But - they're people, too. And while I can't say with certainty that a CO$-related celebrity WILL leave/defect anytime soon, I can say I think it's possible because of how many ESMB'ers are here educating folks like me. {I'd like to say 'probable' but celebrities have, I think, too many people around them (business mgrs, agents, attorneys, etc.) that influence the decision-making process for such a shift to happen as it seems to with other, non-celebrities, who have left CO$.}

    Those same people who surround a celebrity, however, ultimately take their cue from the celebrity, though, or so it seems to me.

    If, for example, Angelina Jolie decides to adopt another baby but she's scheduled to begin a film in, say, 10 days, I'd suspect it would annoy/irk/bother her 'management team' to lose their cut, but they'd do their jobs and get her out of the film with as little dust-up as possible. They'd handle the spin - play up the adoption, play down the fact that the producers are peeved, etc.

    My point is - that if the CO$-celebrity decides s/he wants out of CO$ but wants to continue with "tech" - a competent management team could spin it properly for the general public/audience and salvage the celebrity's credibility with the general public/audience, too. The foot-bullets that would come from CO$/DM in that scenario are near-certain, given the EPIC failures to date, and, I think, would truly rattle the core of CO$ adherents.

  7. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    My Magic Eight Ball says "Not Feasible."

    The only demi-celeb who has left the church and hooked up (albeit vaguely) with Indies is actor Michael Fairman. I read somewhere that the church's efforts to shut him down were pretty lame.
  8. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    I've become rather jaded about expecting "the demise" of Scientology. Basically, if every public and every staff member were to walk out tomorrow, the cult still holds sufficient cash reserves and a real estate portfolio to die for which could easily be run by a small cadre of die hards in perpetuity. Such a scenario would present something of a nightmare. Rather than operating somewhat openly, even if only for appearances sake, we know where the cult is and can guess what its up to. A small "tight conspiracy" model (which was advocated by L Ron Hubbard) would see Scientology and its Evil slip into the shadows with a billion dollar war chest, everyone's PC folders, and the rolodex of corrupt officials. Do not want.

    So, to answer your question directly, IMHO: no.
  9. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    It's "not feasible" that CO$ knows how to effectively shut down a CO$-related celebrity-turned-Indie or the likelihood of a CO$-related celebrity turning Indie isn't feasible? Or something else, and I'm not getting it. (<----Possible, and that's not uncommon, lol.)


  10. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    ^^^^My bold above.

    Sadly enough, I agree with all you've written above and the bolded words succinctly state what does appear a plausible, probable scenario.

    That said, if we call that scenario "Z" and imagine the cult's demise is currently at "R" in the alphabet, then "S" through "Y" are still up for grabs. I see those letters as events happening - and if properly guided/helped along by everyone concerned - perhaps Z will have it's billions turned into millions, its real estate holdings diminished/taxed fairly, have fewer PC folders withheld, and fewer corrupt officials/offices left in their pockets.

    I can't telephone Ms. Alley and ask her to embrace "tech" only - but were she to do so publicly tomorrow, I'd bite back my impulse to NOT endorse such a move and instead applaud her efforts and fan whatever flames I could to help such "news" to reach more people.

  11. What's It All About

    What's It All About Patron with Honors

    I wonder if Travolta's influence has been reduced because he keeps de facto outing himself as gay, which doesn't diminish him in my eyes because he prefers men, but does because evidently he sexually harasses his various masseurs who give non-sexual massages (they're out there, no pun intended) in a Trevoltingly unattractive, persistent way. And because he's allowed himself to be held hostage by a malicious and hypocritical group that treats gayness as a disorder.

    If there are still people who think he isn't he isn't predominantly gay, then bless their little hearts. But he certainly seems much less attractive and sympathetic as a person than he did because of his arrogant assumption that he'll never lose a law suit. Of course, paying hush-money is a cheaper, more private alternative to lawsuits anyway.

    So maybe if a different, non-falling star were to crack the dyke (still, no pun intended) they could unleash a flood of departures. Lisa Marie Presley's departure doesn't seem to have had much impact. So other than the Little Big Being himself, Tommy-tot, who would this famous Moses be?
  12. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Yup, that was confusing. :)

    Nope, I don't think it's feasible that any of the Church celebrities, e.g., Travolta, Alley, Cruise, Archer would leave the church to join the Indies. Haggis didn't. Beghe didn't. I can't think of who would make that transition.

    I do think more celebs will leave the church. Lisa Presley's slip sliding away is a comfy model.

    Interestingly, I saw an interview in the NYTimes the other day with Elizabeth Moss, who affirmed she still is a Scientologist. That blows my mind.

    Lately, however, most Scientology celebs are muzzled -- even that loudmouth Jenna Elfman. I'm betting they're getting pressure from their producers and agents to STFU.

    I no longer believe the church would dare spill folder goodies about celebrities who leave in the future. The cult is dropping F-bombs (Faith!) all over the place to reinforce its religiosity. The minute they spill folder beans, that will negate their churchy bullshit. I think that danger has sailed.

    The Magic Eight Ball and I also think Travolta will come out eventually. Headlines and surveys say American homophobia is in the past. It's about time.

    Just my two cents' worth.

  13. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    I've been pondering quite a few scenarios today.

    Most of the CO$-related celebrities I've seen mentioned here and on the other sites are new to me, except for Travolta/Cruise/Alley. As for the names of the Indies/FZ'ers - they're all brand new to me, but I've been mixing a short list of each and imagining the fall-out -- that is, how it would play in the media.

    No matter which Indie is selected, for example, that Indie person/group will skyrocket to fame, regardless of which CO$-related celebrity attaches. I can't say I'm familiar with Jenna Elfman's tv work, but I do know many people know it. Were she to defect and embrace Mr. Rathbun's version of "tech" publicly, he'd become famous for having been chosen to people with no CO$ connection whatsoever. And, it seems to me, current CO$ adherents would likely hear/see at least something about such a defection before CO$ was able to confine/distort such information.

    That information - to ordinary people unconnected with CO$ - is newsworthy. They'd ask, just as I did: "There's Scientology and there's other scientology? What's that?"

    What such a defection+embrace of "tech" would mean to the celebrity, to current CO$ adherents, to the general public, and to CO$ management is yet to be seen, unfortunately. But, it can happen and I'm genuinely interested in what such an occurrence would cause/prompt to/among/within each.

    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  14. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    Thank you for helping me to understand - much appreciated!

    And I think you're correct in your assessments above re: CO$-related celebrities, too, although I'm less sure about the spilling of secrets -- any embarrassing/odd/illegal info can be confidentially dropped to a blogger anywhere in the world and CO$ would appear innocent of having disclosed such.

    What does not appear to be feasible by those celebrities right this second, probably, is just as you've described. But, if one of them knows about the existence of the Indies AND is looking to leave CO$, then I honestly believe it does become an option.

  15. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I guess her best-known part is from Dharma and Greg. She appears at 1:21 in this clip.

  16. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've been in since 1965. Things changed a great deal. Many now in the FZ have commented that they
    followed Scn but the CO$ changed.
  17. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Well, unless one of the "S" thru "Y" events includes a full, top-to-bottom criminal investigation coupled with a sans-lube wog style forensic audit and successful subsequent prosecution, Scientology's assets will remain intact. Even if the authorities were to take such actions, I suspect a large part of the assets will instantly evaporate into a lawyer's labyrinth. It pains me to say: until those running Scientology decide its time to take the money and run, we will be cleaning up its mess for a long time to come. Think Mafia.

    Apart from the major LOLS and endless general amusement, I wouldn't really like to see a celeb leave the cult to publicly embrace the tech in the Free Indie Dependent Zone because it still benefits Scientology. The endorsement value simply shifts from one dealer to another and the last thing we need at the moment is a celeb promoting the Bridge To Xenu KoolAid-Lite. One thing L Ron Hubbard did produce is a complete manual on how to use hypnotism to extract cash from suckers and establish a cult infrastructure around that central fraud. As I see it, a powerful celeb could attract sufficient numbers (even 100 would do it) to establish another operation and, suddenly, we go from fighting the abuses of one cult to fighting the abuses of two cults.

    I've talked to others about this before. The counter argument, which I do partly concede, is that here, now in 2013 after five glorious years of Anonymous, anyone (in "the West") who is attracted to Scientology is being drawn from an informed perspective. But . . . its still fraud.
  18. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    The idea that anyone in the public eye who rejects DM/CO$/Scientology and embraces ANY other spiritual path is good news. I'd support anyone who did so - I'd buy their book, buy the movie ticket, or whatever else. (I bought Lisa Marie Presley's albums! Actually, not bad, lol.)

    I don't believe, for myself only, in a spiritual path (or even a spiritual self) but I do live here on Earth, in America, and I just do not like to see good people harmed, their trust abused, for even an hour -- because, again, if we're only here for 80-90 years, as I believe, those who intentionally waste our time are, to me, most offensive.

  19. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller


    This is a myth. The simple fact is that the last thing people escaping Scientology need is more Scientology. I'm not sure what "evidence" you have seen which supports the contention that Indie Dependent Scientology helps people decompress, unless you consider "success stories" evidence. I can understand how difficult it must be to put down the hypno-cans but I have seen actual evidence which indicates that the transition from a cult environment back into the real world is speedier and more effective if a mental health professional is involved, even if their involvement is a tandem treatment running alongside KoolAid consumption. Also, a mental health professional provides additional protections and rights that kitchen hypnotists cannot.

    Absolutely. Any anti-cult publicity is to be nourished, and those involved celebrated, but I draw line at the person swapping one Scientology KoolAid supplier for another, as per the reasons I've mentioned. I'll start buying their products and voicing public support when they are fully free and not being "helped" by those who are wasting their time, intentionally or not.

  20. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    I was unclear and apologize. The evidence I referred to (re: some people went from CO$ to Indie/FZ to another path) was ONLY referring to the narratives generously provided on this site and OpClambake and videos on YouTube - that's evidence to me, but may not be considered evidence by someone else, and that's okey-dokey. I, too, have reviewed generally-accepted evidence that 'step-down' programs are NOT always helpful to a person's recovery, and I believe that evidence to be true (i.e., no kool-aid after the last sip - ever) -- but at the same time, I did not want to discount the successful stories people have shared here about how having a place to decompress helped them to eventually and rightfully regain their autonomy. I should have used the word evidence more carefully.

    Personally, I have not seen evidence which, TO ME, indicates that "tech" has any value whatsoever. I would not recommend it to a friend, loved one, stranger who asked me on a city street, or in any other place/situation I can imagine being asked my opinion.

    TO ME, FOR ME, it is useless - whether it's called Dianetics, CO$, Indie/FZ, "tech", or whatever name one tags it with -- but if someone here, on this forum states they are a former CO$-adherent and currently practice the "tech" and it helps them, it's their business and I've nothing to say because they haven't asked for my permission or opinion. Nor should they. Should that same individual try to 'sell' me on the benefits of "tech", I'll politely decline.

    I've tried to be as respectful as possible to everyone here and will continue to try my best to understand and learn what this particularly despicable cult has done and continues to do - while not offending those here who still find personal benefit to the "tech". Every idea that pops up which helps to end CO$'s documented/continued abuse does NOT fit my personal opinion, but I do recognize that the Indie/FZ individuals/groups exist and, from a media/public relations stand-point, I can see how a 'spin' would serve to help what I DO want done: stop the harm, hold people accountable, help those harmed, and move on.

    JB (I can't ask, "Clearer?" here because, oy, another can of worms with that word!)