Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

[Smilla]

It sounds like Mr. Rathbun is getting a little apprehensive about:

1.) Scientology finally being exposed as fraudulent bullshit to the world at large;

2.) A potential large reduction in CoS finances as a result of refunds/legal fees/no new members/blows.

I was willing for a while to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I now think that his ultimate plan is to replace DM as head of the cult and continue with business as usual with much better funding.

I have stated several times that DM remains in power only because he knows where the money is. Once Marty gains that knowledge, DM is done and Marty is in.

Marty just keeps shooting himself in the foot with the critics. It should be obvious by now that he has no interest in calling the cult to account for its abuses and criminal activities. His main talking point is that DM is a squirrel and the "tech" is being misapplied. I for one am now convinced that Marty does not want the CoS as an organization taken down. He simply wants DM out so he and his buddies can move in. Marty and friends may be true believers, but ultimately it's all about the money. There is no reason to believe that if Marty ascended to the leadership of the cult that the abuses and criminality would cease.

I feel the same way. He just wants what's good for him, and to settle his grudges against Miscavige. I don't see any chance of him being able to take over the ruins of the cult. If it came to that point, cult members would want someone with much cleaner hands than Marty has.

 

[Panther]

The relentless Marty bashing might be entertaining if it didn't have a lightly sinister undertone. A few of his products first: Video and written testimony of some of the worst of the abuses that has been viewed by hundreds of thousands around the world (maybe millions by now). A safe "place" created where ex-management and top OTs leaving COS can gather and share their views with minimal harassment. Marty is without doubt the biggest thorn in DM's side. If nothing else he ties up countless hours of Miscaviges time, and millions on PIs and propoganda to counteract Marty's actions. It is Marty that keeps him awake at night. (I doubt he even knows of ESMB. It would be interesting to know).

The ESMB response to his "Noise" post yesterday was an almost instant 14-pages worth of expletives and venom directed his way. Harmless fun? Not really. LRH-bashing and tech bashing isn't going to encourage the likes of Mary Jo or Sherry K to walk out the door. I presume most here would like to see many more Mary Jos and Sherrys walking? It becomes self-destructive as it just looks like extremism, the very point Marty was making in the Noise post. If the "ex" field can be successfully portrayed as anti-LRH that is all the ammuniton DM needs, and can and will be used to turn the screws even further onto the remaining staff and public, garner yet more donations etc.

I understand most here have ended cycle on scientology - the subject - and that's fine. But how about recognising there are many viewpoints and ideas here. I for one am very grateful Marty stepped up to the plate, whatever you think his motives are, because a Marty out there antagonising DM and getting OTs to walk away is infinitely better than a Marty lurking in the shadows doing diddly squat, like many ex-execs have done.

Aside from all that, isn't it just a tad immature to hurl insults around to anyone not aligning 100% with your point of view? There is a word for it but I can't quite put my finger on it...

 

[SomeGuy]

Aside from all that, isn't it just a tad immature to hurl insults around to anyone not aligning 100% with your point of view? There is a word for it but I can't quite put my finger on it...

I agree, Marty should appologize to all the critics and exes who disagree with him. They did not deserve to be called assclowns. There are many points of view he should find a way to recognize that not every one is going to think LRH was anything more then a conman.

 

[Krautfag]

because a Marty out there antagonising DM and getting OTs to walk away is infinitely better than a Marty lurking in the shadows doing diddly squat, like many ex-execs have done.

And that would be who?

 

[byte301]

The relentless Marty bashing might be entertaining if it didn't have a lightly sinister undertone. A few of his products first: Video and written testimony of some of the worst of the abuses that has been viewed by hundreds of thousands around the world (maybe millions by now). A safe "place" created where ex-management and top OTs leaving COS can gather and share their views with minimal harassment. Marty is without doubt the biggest thorn in DM's side. If nothing else he ties up countless hours of Miscaviges time, and millions on PIs and propoganda to counteract Marty's actions. It is Marty that keeps him awake at night. (I doubt he even knows of ESMB. It would be interesting to know).

The ESMB response to his "Noise" post yesterday was an almost instant 14-pages worth of expletives and venom directed his way. Harmless fun? Not really. LRH-bashing and tech bashing isn't going to encourage the likes of Mary Jo or Sherry K to walk out the door. I presume most here would like to see many more Mary Jos and Sherrys walking? It becomes self-destructive as it just looks like extremism, the very point Marty was making in the Noise post. If the "ex" field can be successfully portrayed as anti-LRH that is all the ammuniton DM needs, and can and will be used to turn the screws even further onto the remaining staff and public, garner yet more donations etc.

I understand most here have ended cycle on scientology - the subject - and that's fine. But how about recognising there are many viewpoints and ideas here. I for one am very grateful Marty stepped up to the plate, whatever you think his motives are, because a Marty out there antagonising DM and getting OTs to walk away is infinitely better than a Marty lurking in the shadows doing diddly squat, like many ex-execs have done.

Aside from all that, isn't it just a tad immature to hurl insults around to anyone not aligning 100% with your point of view? There is a word for it but I can't quite put my finger on it...

You keep talking about Mary Joe and Sherry K. I don't know them. Are they important?

Do those 2 people make Marty upstat? Can he come up with the stats Carmel and the Aussies have?

You are giving Marty importance in your posts. Many of us disagree with you. We don't believe Marty deserves any respect or consideration.

I don't believe a thing he says.

You don't like the way we're posting, we get that. Thanks for the lecture. Why don't you write up a KR on us to Marty? Or have you already done that?

 

[Axiom142]

Panther, I’m not sure that Marty is the biggest thorn (Marc Headley might just take that title), but I agree that he is a major headache for Miscavige. And I’m sure he knows all about ESMB, the amount of ‘trouble’ caused by this forum has been colossal.

I think that Marty upset a few people with his comments, which appeared to be rather derogatory and dismissive of people who have done a huge amount to expose the abuses of the CoS. Perhaps he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it came across.

I also agree with you that a ‘safe’ place for Scientologist to meet and exchange views, away from the suppressive environment of the CoS is very important. Marty provides a rallying point for those who do not agree with what is happening in their church but would never dream of coming to somewhere like ESMB. Although I think it would be a good test of their ability to hold their own space if they did.

I would like to point out that I wasn’t directing venom or expletives at Marty Rathbun. But maybe I’m too easy going and need to be more committed and vociferous?

Thanks for coming here and saying what you think – the more diverse the views, the better. I’m sure that your views won’t be popular with everyone, but you know that I value what you are saying and doing. I hope that you will visit more often and perhaps tell everyone some of your story? I’m sure that you have some interesting tales to tell.

Ax

 

[Ladybird]

Video and written testimony of some of the worst of the abuses ...

Marty hasn't even touched on the WORST abuses. Especially not the ones he and Mike Rinder were involved in.

Panther, please watch Aaron's videos. I can't imagine anyone watching those and still hanging on to the "tech".

Also, before you come over here and tell us to play nice, go back and read Marty's nasty comments.

I always had some nagging thoughts about how Hubbard could rant and rave and critisize everyone who didn't agree with him, but any critical thought anyone else had was a sure sign of crimes and M/W/Hs.

Marty is acting exzactly like Hubbard in that regard.

 

[Feral]

In the 'scientology world' the cult sort of tried to 'own' celebs and vips.
Marty needs to get past that.

Mary Jo and Sherry support our actions too, but we don't 'own' them.

Sherry and Mary Jo are the property of themselves and keep their own counsel I think. They are both OTVIIIs Byte and have been huge contributors to the forward thrust of Scientology.

As for liberating minds from the cult, well, we too have several runs on the board which I don't think Mr Panther has a clue about.Sherry had read a lot of ESMB stories before Marty had even squeaked. She said as much in coming to my defense when Marty was dismissing something I said on his blog like I was an annoying fly.

You keep talking about Mary Joe and Sherry K. I don't know them. Are they important?

Do those 2 people make Marty upstat? Can he come up with the stats Carmel and the Aussies have?

You are giving Marty importance in your posts. Many of us disagree with you. We don't believe Marty deserves any respect or consideration.

I don't believe a thing he says.

You don't like the way we're posting, we get that. Thanks for the lecture. Why don't you write up a KR on us to Marty? Or have you already done that?

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

The relentless Marty bashing might be entertaining if it didn't have a lightly sinister undertone.

Spoilsport! - Yeah, but that is only a slightly sinister undertone! - Hardly noticeable..

A few of his products first: Video and written testimony of some of the worst of the abuses that has been viewed by hundreds of thousands around the world (maybe millions by now).

Those ARE good.. Nobody's complaining..

A safe "place" created where ex-management and top OTs leaving COS can gather and share their views with minimal harassment.

Erh.. Harrasment from whom? - From the critics and ex-scientologists? - Or do you mean harrasment from the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology?

If the first.. What whiners! Pathetic! Afraid of some arguing are they? Well, we don't declare 'em SP's with any authority. We don't put 'em in the RPF either.

If the latter.. What whiners! Pathetic! - Grow a pair! - We need to speak out! - If these people were executives and left the cult they should be the first to know that.

Marty is without doubt the biggest thorn in DM's side. If nothing else he ties up countless hours of Miscaviges time, and millions on PIs and propoganda to counteract Marty's actions. It is Marty that keeps him awake at night.

Unless Marty is on a mission and acting under DM's orders.

(I doubt he even knows of ESMB. It would be interesting to know).

I'm sure DM is pretty ignorant of many things.. That the impression one gets.

The ESMB response to his "Noise" post yesterday was an almost instant 14-pages worth of expletives and venom directed his way. Harmless fun? Not really. LRH-bashing and tech bashing isn't going to encourage the likes of Mary Jo or Sherry K to walk out the door. I presume most here would like to see many more Mary Jos and Sherrys walking? It becomes self-destructive as it just looks like extremism, the very point Marty was making in the Noise post. If the "ex" field can be successfully portrayed as anti-LRH that is all the ammuniton DM needs, and can and will be used to turn the screws even further onto the remaining staff and public, garner yet more donations etc.

I find it curious that scientologists object to 'extremism'..

And actually Hubbard was a genuine asshole.. And he's dead! - By his own holy scripture that's as wrong as you get! - I don't see how DM can use this as 'ammunition'..

DM is an asshole too.. And he's alive to have his ass kicked.

I understand most here have ended cycle on scientology - the subject - and that's fine. But how about recognising there are many viewpoints and ideas here. I for one am very grateful Marty stepped up to the plate, whatever you think his motives are, because a Marty out there antagonising DM and getting OTs to walk away is infinitely better than a Marty lurking in the shadows doing diddly squat, like many ex-execs have done.

Marty ain't antagonizing DM.. He's doing his mission orders and I think so far DM is happy with him.. Might change fast as we've seen.

OT's have been walking away for years.. Without needing the critics to baby them and pander to their sensitivities.

Marty might appeal to the kind that needs babying.. Those who want to 'save' the cult.

Aside from all that, isn't it just a tad immature to hurl insults around to anyone not aligning 100% with your point of view? There is a word for it but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Tell Marty that! - In fact, get him to strike that from Cult policy when he's the new COB!

Rathbuns Communication Office
Cancellation of Hurled Insults
We will now cease the practice of hurling insults at anyone not aligning 100% with our point of view. It is immature!

This will not change the handling of dissenters.

 

[Panther]

You keep talking about Mary Joe and Sherry K. I don't know them. Are they important?

Do those 2 people make Marty upstat? Can he come up with the stats Carmel and the Aussies have?

As recent OT VIII comps yes, they are very significant. Other OTs are listening and watching...

Panther, please watch Aaron's videos. I can't imagine anyone watching those and still hanging on to the "tech".

I will - where can these be viewed?

 

[nexus100]

I think the evidence against Marty's good faith is primarily that he continues to use Scientology on other people, despite intimate connection to its flaws.

That, and not taking advantage of ESMB, the "real" OT level.

If you think good faith is not important, but only "results", that path has so many dubious outcomes, including Hubbard's personally and Scientologyi's in general, that the idea might bear closer inspection.

 

[Axiom142]

...

I will - where can these be viewed?

Part 1 is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HiF_89wVj4

Aaron has a whole series on his channel on YouTube.

Ax

 

[He-man]

The relentless Marty bashing might be entertaining if it didn't have a lightly sinister undertone. A few of his products first: Video and written testimony of some of the worst of the abuses that has been viewed by hundreds of thousands around the world (maybe millions by now). A safe "place" created where ex-management and top OTs leaving COS can gather and share their views with minimal harassment. Marty is without doubt the biggest thorn in DM's side. If nothing else he ties up countless hours of Miscaviges time, and millions on PIs and propoganda to counteract Marty's actions. It is Marty that keeps him awake at night. (I doubt he even knows of ESMB. It would be interesting to know).

The ESMB response to his "Noise" post yesterday was an almost instant 14-pages worth of expletives and venom directed his way. Harmless fun? Not really. LRH-bashing and tech bashing isn't going to encourage the likes of Mary Jo or Sherry K to walk out the door. I presume most here would like to see many more Mary Jos and Sherrys walking? It becomes self-destructive as it just looks like extremism, the very point Marty was making in the Noise post. If the "ex" field can be successfully portrayed as anti-LRH that is all the ammuniton DM needs, and can and will be used to turn the screws even further onto the remaining staff and public, garner yet more donations etc.

I understand most here have ended cycle on scientology - the subject - and that's fine. But how about recognising there are many viewpoints and ideas here. I for one am very grateful Marty stepped up to the plate, whatever you think his motives are, because a Marty out there antagonising DM and getting OTs to walk away is infinitely better than a Marty lurking in the shadows doing diddly squat, like many ex-execs have done.

Aside from all that, isn't it just a tad immature to hurl insults around to anyone not aligning 100% with your point of view? There is a word for it but I can't quite put my finger on it...

The reason it gets to 14 pages is because alot of people have a viewpoint they want to express, me included.

I always thought it is a good thing Marty came out of the shadows but I think he should do more to stop the abuses.

Throwing creamcakes in peoples faces aren´t immature, it´s fun.
Or rather, if you step up on a bardisk where there´s alot of drunkards, prepare to get beercanned.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I also agree with you that a ‘safe’ place for Scientologist to meet and exchange views, away from the suppressive environment of the CoS is very important. Marty provides a rallying point for those who do not agree with what is happening in their church but would never dream of coming to somewhere like ESMB. Although I think it would be a good test of their ability to hold their own space if they did.

Application of gradients.

1. Confront Marty.
2. Confront Gier.
3. Confront Terril.
4. Confront Emma.

Congratulations! You've passed your Internet TRs!


Mark A. Baker

 

[Panther]

Panther, I’m not sure that Marty is the biggest thorn (Marc Headley might just take that title), but I agree that he is a major headache for Miscavige. And I’m sure he knows all about ESMB, the amount of ‘trouble’ caused by this forum has been colossal.

I think that Marty upset a few people with his comments, which appeared to be rather derogatory and dismissive of people who have done a huge amount to expose the abuses of the CoS. Perhaps he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it came across.

I also agree with you that a ‘safe’ place for Scientologist to meet and exchange views, away from the suppressive environment of the CoS is very important. Marty provides a rallying point for those who do not agree with what is happening in their church but would never dream of coming to somewhere like ESMB. Although I think it would be a good test of their ability to hold their own space if they did.

I would like to point out that I wasn’t directing venom or expletives at Marty Rathbun. But maybe I’m too easy going and need to be more committed and vociferous?

Thanks for coming here and saying what you think – the more diverse the views, the better. I’m sure that your views won’t be popular with everyone, but you know that I value what you are saying and doing. I hope that you will visit more often and perhaps tell everyone some of your story? I’m sure that you have some interesting tales to tell.

Ax

Well Ax, as you know, I could spin a few yarns that's true! And one day I probably will "tell all". But not to an audience that seriously seems to think Marty is working for DM! I mean puh-lease!

My mantra is just for a little more tolerance. I know Marty is working on stuff that will benefit us all and my guess he gets frustrated at some of the unproductive carping from the sidelines. Not, IMHO, to be confused with arrogance

I agree Marc is a good candidate for "Top Thorn". I read BFG and it is just superb. As others have noted at will make a great movie - it's even got the Hollywood ending!

I wasn't referring to you about the spleen venting; that was a different ESMB thread that popped up yesterday.

I still owe you a curry. Maybe one day next week?

 

[Axiom142]

Well Ax, as you know, I could spin a few yarns that's true! And one day I probably will "tell all". But not to an audience that seriously seems to think Marty is working for DM! I mean puh-lease!

I know that you would have an attentive audience. Things have just been in a state of high-excitement here recently.

My mantra is just for a little more tolerance. I know Marty is working on stuff that will benefit us all and my guess he gets frustrated at some of the unproductive carping from the sidelines. Not, IMHO, to be confused with arrogance

I’d like to see some more tolerance for others points of view as well. But unfortunately even I cannot control the intertubes.

I still owe you a curry. Maybe one day next week?

Damn right! And I’ve got the most expensive restaurant lined up!

Ax

 

[nexus100]

Arrogance: Overbearing Pride

Pride: a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority

From this viewpoint Marty is arrogant at least with regard to ESMB. Anyone using Scientology without examing the true "stats" and with unwillingness to see other options is, IMHO, arrogant.

I don't care what Marty does for Marty or the COS at large. I don't care if the COS collapses because none of it matters so long as people elect to stay in their respective boxes. Scientology is just one of them.

Marty treating others with SCN, though, knowing what he knows and then blowing off the board. Sheesh.

 

[byte301]

Arrogance: Overbearing Pride

Pride: a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority

From this viewpoint Marty is arrogant at least with regard to ESMB. Anyone using Scientology without examing the true "stats" and with unwillingness to see other options is, IMHO, arrogant.

I don't care what Marty does for Marty or the COS at large. I don't care if the COS collapses because none of it matters so long as people elect to stay in their respective boxes. Scientology is just one of them.

Marty treating others with SCN, though, knowing what he knows and then blowing off the board. Sheesh.

Agreed.

Panther, since you seem to be a friend of Ax's I won't troll you.
I will ask you to go read every old Marty thread on this board however. I think that would tell you why we go nuts and call him names, etc. everytime we hear what he's saying on his flog.

He hasn't come clean by a long shot. His interview with SP Times was mostly fluff. Like Aaron said, a slap from dm is nothing compared to a lot of the stuff that went on.

People go on his flog wanting answers about how they were treated when he was calling a lot of the shots. They usually are treated in a demeaning, condescinding manner. Alanzo is one. And Marty called Dennis Erhlich a punk. The man he tried to destroy.

He doesn't care about anyone he abused while in the cult and he doesn't care about anyone still being abused by the cult.

Aaron had the guts to do what Marty and Rinder should have done from the get go.

No, I will never have any respect for Marty until he spills the REAL beans. I doubt that will ever happen. So I'll keep calling him names. I don't have any scilon bosses these days so I'm free to say what I feel. Call it HE&R all you want, I AM human and I won't suppress that. I don't subscribe to any of that scilon crap these days anyway.

 

[Smilla]

Agreed.

Panther, since you seem to be a friend of Ax's I won't troll you.
I will ask you to go read every old Marty thread on this board however. I think that would tell you why we go nuts and call him names, etc. everytime we hear what he's saying on his flog.

He hasn't come clean by a long shot. His interview with SP Times was mostly fluff. Like Aaron said, a slap from dm is nothing compared to a lot of the stuff that went on.

People go on his flog wanting answers about how they were treated when he was calling a lot of the shots. They usually are treated in a demeaning, condescinding manner. Alanzo is one. He called Dennis Erhlich a punk.

He doesn't care about anyone he abused while in the cult and he doesn't care about anyone still being abused by the cult.

Aaron had the guts to do what Marty and Rinder should have done from the get go.

No, I will never have any respect for Marty until he spills the REAL beans. I doubt that will ever happen. So I'll keep calling him names. I don't have any scilon bosses these days so I'm free to say what I feel. Call it HE&R all you want, I AM human and I won't suppress that. I don't subscribe to any of that scilon crap these days anyway.

I agree. Great post. Thanks.

 

[Zinjifar]

I don't care if the COS collapses because none of it matters so long as people elect to stay in their respective boxes.

I care if Scientology collapses because, as an organization it *continues* to harm people. Nothing but collapse will actually stop that.

As a secondary issue I'm very curious as to the actual background shennanigans and nothing but a complete collapse will allow the kind of investigation that will actually reveal the 'truth' about Scientology.

Zinj