Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I didn't say he'd be welcome, and he is abhored by freezoners.

At least you guys are consistent with Hubbard's policies I'll give you that ... only people who can bring in the cash or bodies into the movement get an option at a second chance. Miscavige would be too much of a liability to offer a second change, it would be about as foolish as offering Hubbard a second chance. Miscavige is way too much like Hubbard to be marketable.
 

Tim Skog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng

Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?

Until I have evidence to the contrary I will take them at face value. I believe the SPT first contacted them, not the other way around. And didn't Rinder refuse to help them at first?

Currently I think of Rinder as a slimeball. He'll have to perform very well in tomorrow's SPT issue or elsewhere for me to change that opinion. I wonder if there are videos of him that the SPT will release tomorrow. I have read from people that knew him that he used to be a nice guy. The few times I saw him in the flesh, and all the times I saw him on TV, he didn't look like one, but there is Zimbardo's under-appreciated data about both dispositional and situational factors affecting how one operates in a particular time and place. I find I usually consider only the dispositional ones and forget how the situational ones may have equal importance according to Zimbardo's research (see his relatively new book The Lucifer Effect).

Paul
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Having been just public, and never on lines at anything bigger than a class V org, I never heard these names while I was in. I don't know if they were scum. are scum, what their motivations are, anything.

But I do know that while I was in I justified all kinds of things as being OK because I was convinced it was the greatest good. I lied to my family about such things as Scientology embraces all religions (when I knew that it didn't) and pretended wins I didn't have to make it seem to them like a good thing. I fell into traps of thinking I was superior to others because i was a Scientologist. I knew about fair game but thought it was OK because Scientology was THAT important. My mind was all messed up. . . and that was at the lowest levels of involvement.

I can only imagine what I would have done with more commitment and responsibility. I'm not going to condemn these guys, even if they've done some bad things. What they are doing right now is very good.

-TL

Hi TL,

There is a moral difference in lying to your family about something you are embarrassed about and lying to the authorities about how somebody in your care died.

There is a huge moral difference between lying about your wins and beating someone up.

Just because you had the same sort of feeling of motivation does not excuse what they did.

It also casts a pall over what they are doing NOW.

Mike Rinder was a friend of mine in my SO days, we did a mission together, we bumped into each at various times during our careers. I like Mike, I enjoyed his company and I would probably enjoy it again.

But that's beside the point of the uncomfortable moral aspect of things.

For the last 20 or so years - both Mike and Marty have, by their own statements helped Miscavige run a reign of terror on Scientologists and Sea Org members.

Families have been split up by their actions, people have lost jobs, people have gone bankrupt.

What would it take for you to condemn people who have done that sort of thing?

I was in international management, I helped set up and run the IAS/IMU, I was the CO of AOSH EU, I was the D/CO EU. I did missions - so many of them I have lost count.

In all my time, and in all my stressful situations NOT ONCE did I ever lay a hand on anyone - in fact I never raised a hand even at a distance, I never "got in someone's face" and yet, unlike Miscavige Rinder and Rathbun - I actually have a history of being in fights prior to my time in the SO. I actually fought people who fought back. I was a biker.

In all my stressful situations I never once regged someone just because I was ordered to - in fact I refused on several occasions, once because I thought that the prospect did not understand what he was doing - even though he had the money.

So the truth of the matter is that no-one needs to sell his or her conscience to be in the SO - you only need to sell it if your position, your power means more to you than your own personal integrity (and I don't mean that bogus "integrity" Hubbard waffled on about).

Neither Rathbun nor Rinder stood up to MIscavige, neither told him to fuck off when he ordered them to do things that they obviously did not feel right doing. They preferred to do unto others rather than be done unto.


Both of them lied to Miscavige in order to keep their positions - why on earth would you assume they are speaking the whole truth now? I applaud them being interviewed and answering the questions but that does not buy them any grace.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
:violin:

Anyone who continues to promote Hubbard as anything other than a piece of shit, is insulting everyone who suffered as a result of the policies he created


Not true at all. We all have the right to follow our hearts, philosophy-wise. That does not "insult" or negate anyone else. To insult someone else, one would have to insult that person.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng


Disgusting, Challenge. You've said things like this about people before. Like when someone (on a forum to which you also post ) was expelled and declared, you said that this could be some kind of op.

So people have to prove they're not witches, looks like.

This is the kind of sick paranoid poisonous crap that I find to be a major problem in the critic's scene and I'm disgusted with your repetitive perpetuation of it.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I wonder if it ever will. We haven't really heard much from Mike Rinder yet, and, it seems he's the one the 'Church' is more worried about. Although it's great that Marty is 'speaking out', what he has to say is eyewash. If we're to go by what he's earlier said here on ESMB, he feels little to no culpability for the activities of the 'Church', legal or not, and some of his preferred story line, such as his comments on 'disconnection' are deliberately misleading.

Maybe Mike will do better.

But, Terril's adulation *should* go a long way towards discrediting whatever flavor of 'independent' Scientology he seems to think he's representing. Bad Terril!

Zinj


Why would Terril's "adulation" be any kind of discredit? Terril's a nice and helpful person. You may not agree with his philosophical choices but he has no problem with yours or anyone else's.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I agree 100% with the asshole. I have no sympathy for either of them.

By that I mean there is no reason to believe either of them would operate differently if circumstances were the same as before. No reason to think that they have changed perspectives or are willing to offer up honest viewpoints. There is reason to believe their support of the attack on the COS is the safest route for both of them.

I think it is at best disingenuous to play the commendation card, an odiferous relic of Hubbardism, in support of auditors whose methodology has been so, so much the opposite of what spiritual freedom is supposed to create.

As I quoted earlier, politics makes for strange bedfellows.


I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Silly theory, Challenge.

Most of the people in the FZ are already "out", and quite public about it, in terms of practitioners. It might be possible that they'd like to learn more about the FZ, as where they are getting their materials, which PUBLIC are getting services from them, etc.

Thinking that you are truly an anonymous FreeZoner is almost completely ridiculous, these days. It's child's play to track people's email and posts to their homes. Even I know that, now.
 
Not true at all. We all have the right to follow our hearts, philosophy-wise. That does not "insult" or negate anyone else. To insult someone else, one would have to insult that person.

Sure you do, why wouldn't you? Just as everyone else has the right to discuss the evil Hubbard perpetrated or the evil his totalitarian policies have inflicted on the victims unfortunate enough to have been left in the path of Scientology's goal.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

That's the point. They havent asked anything. Rathbun has stepped into a role he has never stepped out of, lord and master of his domain. Instead of taking the step of being understood as would happen eventually on ESMB he continues to play God, at a distance. The question was not who they are better or worse than, it is who they are now.
 
I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

Integrity? Give me a break, that's like claiming a hit man who ran to the police for protection, after the mob he worked for put out a contract out of him ... has integrity. And now we should all now praise him because he's trying to cover his ass while cash in on a story claiming he was only trying to help the victims while stopping the mob's illegal activities.

Sure I'm glad the cult is being exposed, but this does not make them heroes this makes them human and they still have a long way to go. They have ruined many lives in the name of Hubbard and the longer they and others like them stayed silence the more lives were and still are destroyed by Hubbard's insane policies. They are still acting Hubbard like and refusing to accept any responsibility for their actions. Yeah lets all blame everything on Miscavige since everyone already knows Miscavige is trying to act just as psychotic as his mentor Hubbard.

The true heroes are the ones who fight to this story out and expose the cult, such as the journalists who put this story together.
 
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auntpat

Patron with Honors
Amazing Grace

Dear Mick Wenlot, you mentioned that Marty and Mike had not bought any grace with their speaking out. Grace is not bought it is freely given unconditionly, and is truly Amazing.:yes:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dear Mick Wenlot, you mentioned that Marty and Mike had not bought any grace with their speaking out. Grace is not bought it is freely given unconditionly, and is truly Amazing.:yes:

as I am not a believer then your statement is incorrect. grace is not given by anyone.

You are free to believe as you wish but please do not bother to correct me when I do not even subscribe to your belief system.

You may also want to check my screen name (which is also my real name)
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

Well they didn't "go public" they were contacted and persuaded.

But they did answer the questions, they were willing to talk.

It's a good baby step.

But they did not do something when it actually could have meant something - when they were in. As you point out in fact.

When the times called for courage - they bottled out.

I do not think they have found courage yet.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
as I am not a believer then your statement is incorrect. grace is not given by anyone.

You are free to believe as you wish but please do not bother to correct me when I do not even subscribe to your belief system.

You may also want to check my screen name (which is also my real name)

OK Word clearing mode. :)

World book Dict def 1] Beauty of form, movement or manner. [ the ballet dancer danced with much grace. ]

[ skip rest of defs in true FZ word clearing style. :) ]

This is grace given by someone. To the obsever.

OK going nerdish for the mo.

The great motoring writer LJK Setright of Car magazine [brit]talked of handling, and specifically of the Fiat 130, a fast tourer of yonks ago having
" Grace under pressure."

Grace is not in the tech dict.

Marty and the others were sure under pressure. Only seen Marty and Amy, grace ? Oh Yeah.

Tommy Davis? Poor fellow, I see an innocent digging his hole deeper.

I'm inclined to think his hot mom will start showing grace. :)
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
There is little doubt in my mind that Marty Rathbun or Mike rinder, individually or together could *stop* the ongoing criminality of the 'Church' of Scientology within weeks. Admittedly, not without jeopardy to themselves.

They have so far chosen not to. I'm not a prosecutor or jailer, but, I'm also not inclined to award them little tin 'hero' badges.

Zinj
 
OK Word clearing mode. :)

World book Dict def 1] Beauty of form, movement or manner. [ the ballet dancer danced with much grace. ]

[ skip rest of defs in true FZ word clearing style. :) ]

This is grace given by someone. To the obsever.

OK going nerdish for the mo.

The great motoring writer LJK Setright of Car magazine [brit]talked of handling, and specifically of the Fiat 130, a fast tourer of yonks ago having
" Grace under pressure."

Grace is not in the tech dict.

Marty and the others were sure under pressure. Only seen Marty and Amy, grace ? Oh Yeah.

Tommy Davis? Poor fellow, I see an innocent digging his hole deeper.

I'm inclined to think his hot mom will start showing grace. :)

They're not talking about Fred Astaire, they are referring to grace as mercy or indulgence.

You know, Scientology word clearing loses the fluidness of language and intertextual conceptions and tends to make one literal. But that's a story for another thread.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
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