Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.
- Thread starter Terril park
- Start date
MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
Would people still buy services in the church, knowing Clears and OTs as defined by LRH do not exist? I don't know.
For sure the church must stop to lie about them. But many people do have gains with the lower Bridge, and many with the upper Bridge too. May be a matter of redefining what you may achieve and market it in a more honest way.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Hi would you like to take a personality test ... oh and by the way our new version of this kinder and gentler Sceintology requires me to inform you that the vast majority of everything Hubbard ever wrote is full of shit ... but some of it may help you ... who knows you may even get lucky and not end up in worse mental shape as a result of it. Oh and one last thing, spending the rest of your life in trace removing imaginary spiritual parasites isn't as bad as it sounds once you get used to it.
So what do you say, shall we set you up to take the test?
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Nope, that's not a problem. Initially, there would be a lot of upset, of course, as people realize they were lied to and betrayed for most of their lives. However, having experienced real gains in session, people would still be willing to go into session, and if it were honestly presented as what it is, would probably be seen to be amazingly worthwhile, much more so without the hype about bodylessness, immortality or being totally "at cause".
Of course there would probably be more people involved. I doubt Marty has the know-how or viewpoints necessary to completely reform the tech. I'm sure as hell that I don't. And then there's policy. And SO EDs. Etc., etc.: there would have to be a committee of people who were interested parties. Perhaps an internet group that could cannibalize every suggestion in realtime, and eventually come up with something that would be agreeable, transparent, accountable, and LEGAL.
Now, while there might be a committee that puts this all together, I think there is a need for a leader. Not because that's the healthiest thing in the world, but otherwise, where does the buck stop? People tend to follow alpha males.
Bingo. The best way to do this is to find some way of getting supervision and accreditation with the APA.
I think this has been done.
MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.
I'd join that Church.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.
Philosophers will walk the halls, debating good and evil.
NASA will open a research and development center right off of the HGC, furiously writing down notes from pcs, fresh from sessions where they went whole track and remembered the engineering of interplanetary spacecraft, skyrocketing the advancement of manned space exploration....
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Well, obviously you're mocking the concept, but I don't think it's ridiculous. I do think that practically it's unlikely, due to the absurd task of sorting out which policies to accept and which to throw out, etc., or god-forbid, which one's to ALTER! egad!
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
I guess turning Scientology into Star Trek Convention without the Spock Ears, is about the best you can expect Scientology to evolve into
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Be realistic for a moment, if people are allowed to communicate their fantasies of being reincarnated from the same people, how long do you think it will last? Hubbard orchestrated him scam with great precision. Scientology would die a quick death if it's follows are allowed to openly communicate. Even Freezoners know better than to openly talk about their "case". Open communication and reality would totally ruin the fantasy Scientology is based on. Rather than mentally masturbating to some 1950s science fiction writers delusions and weeding though his non sense for something useful, you'd be better off buying a set of used Anthony Robbin's CDs on eBay for $50 and doing that.
RolandRB
Rest in Peace
Oh sure, that'll work. They could try this for an honest advertisement:
"Would you like to have the realisation that you now know who you are not and am interested in finding out who you are? This could be yours for a mere $400,000 if you take your services within the Church of Scientology."
uniquemand
Unbeliever
I'd agree that if people swapped stories from their sessions about their "cases", they'd quickly come to the determination that it was a fantasy. I don't think this would mean that they wouldn't have found it valuable. I don't argue that past-life memory is real, or that immortality is available! I do think that auditing is of real value.
I'd agree that you'd be better off finding something else, other than Scientology, because it's going to be an easier task to learn something right the first time than to try to figure out why and where Hubbard was wrong, etc.
RolandRB
Rest in Peace
If you mix honesty in with Scientology then you get left with pure honesty and no Scientology. Look at the freezone. They know that. They need obfuscation and the lies that surround Scientology in the Church in order to survive.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
I am very sorry that many people operating in the Scientology FreeZone continue to cling to anachronisms like confidentiality, or running of other people's incidents on their cases as some form of weird indoctrination. You are right to doubt or mock them, so long as they are hiding behind these masks and devices which preclude analysis and understanding, and enhance cultic spiritual materialism and guru pricing for the people "in the know".
The FreeZone, to me, may be different to the way you understand it, Roland. I understand it as the collection of people practicing what they consider to be "the correct tech", based on their earlier knowledge from Scientology and whatever else they were informed by. I don't consider the Ron's Orgs only, nor is it only those groups practicing "standard tech". Some of them are flat loonies. Some are on the up-and-up. It's presently a "buyer beware" business, but ANY of them are probably better than getting involved in the Church. I'd like to see the FreeZone evolve to a fascism-free viewpoint of SERVICE to their fellow man, rather than the present FEE-FOR-SERVICE mentality that seems to rule. Make your living doing something for exchange, and don't try to make auditing your means of eking a living, else you run the danger of setting a high price on what is priceless, but useless without access.
Outethicsofficer
Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't care which one wins, Rinder or Rathbun, they both have dirt on their hands, they are getting their O/Ws off to all, NO SHIT! I don't care who tells or what their involvement was, I couldn't care less for the whole S.O thing. It is an abomination! I hope the thing finally chokes itself in its own shit.
I would like to put a local face to this, my recently out of the S.O source is validated now by these admissions, my very young source is "half ack'd", for here are some of the people whom had the power, one would think, to stop the madness.
For there is something to know about what has been done and what is going on, yes the actual specifics will be disputed, both by the church and by those revealing the things detailed in the releases. Each attempting to be right.
We have known, any one of us, something was wrong, god we didn't even need the specifics to know that however I am pleased they are prepared to step up and tell.
It has taken some time for my source to feel safe enough, just to say what occurred, I have seen the effects created by having too much power in the hands of people not good enough of heart to be worthy of it.
So for me and my loved one's the point scoring, the posturing etc... will mean nothing if it doesn't change what is happening.That Tommy Davis is defending the actions by saying it is all part of being an S.O member... well he can PM me, I will meet him and show him how we in ANZO deal with the likes of him! I would love to get my hands around his "ding dong donger" and shove it up his "ding dong arse"
I AM NOT KIDDING!
OEO
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nexus100
Gold Meritorious Patron
LOL!
Carmel
Crusader
I've been keeping up with this thread, the other threads relating to this topic, and of course all the news. Over the last couple of days, I've been feeling everything from exhilaration to the other extreme, over the whole thing. I haven't posted about it till now, because I have had so many mixed emotions and mixed feelings about it all.
I am glad and grateful about this expose. I think it should have happened, and it has. I think it was done effectively, and no doubt it will be effective in more ways than one - It's something which will do a job all by itself, as well as something which can be utilised for or instrumental in further effects.
However, on a personal level, I don't feel like popping a bottle of bubbly on this one. We all have our expectations, and I have mine just like anyone else. I expected more, I wanted more and/or hoped for more. In addition to that, the content of the interviews as well as the type of impingement you get when seeing people speak, has given me yet another reality shift on how it actually was/is and has made me sick to the stomach.
What one does or would maybe be expected to do, that could make up for any harm done (or 'permitted' harm), is relative to the damage. For me, the discovery or new level of reality on the abuses, through all this press/media, brought up my expectations on what needs to be done or 'should' be done to right the wrongs - What I've seen and read doesn't cut it for me, and at this time, ya wouldn't see me giving Mr Rathbun a pat on the back, not at all. I don't know him, nor do I know his agenda. Per my 'standards' though (which include a fair anount of cutting slack); which we have for ourselves as well as others (be that right or wrong); given what he has done and been party to while in the ranks; and given that he has been out for four years now.....he needs to step up. I'm disappointed and somewhat suspect to say the least - There'd be no brownie points from my quarter.
In saying that though, as I said above, I'm thankful for the media/the expose - it's a boost we've all been wanting, and it's a good one that's going to help make one hell of a difference.
I am glad and grateful about this expose. I think it should have happened, and it has.
I think it was done effectively, and no doubt it will be effective in more ways than one - It's something which will do a job all by itself, as well as something which can be utilised for or instrumental in further effects.However, on a personal level, I don't feel like popping a bottle of bubbly on this one. We all have our expectations, and I have mine just like anyone else. I expected more, I wanted more and/or hoped for more. In addition to that, the content of the interviews as well as the type of impingement you get when seeing people speak, has given me yet another reality shift on how it actually was/is and has made me sick to the stomach.
What one does or would maybe be expected to do, that could make up for any harm done (or 'permitted' harm), is relative to the damage. For me, the discovery or new level of reality on the abuses, through all this press/media, brought up my expectations on what needs to be done or 'should' be done to right the wrongs - What I've seen and read doesn't cut it for me, and at this time, ya wouldn't see me giving Mr Rathbun a pat on the back, not at all. I don't know him, nor do I know his agenda. Per my 'standards' though (which include a fair anount of cutting slack); which we have for ourselves as well as others (be that right or wrong); given what he has done and been party to while in the ranks; and given that he has been out for four years now.....he needs to step up. I'm disappointed and somewhat suspect to say the least - There'd be no brownie points from my quarter.
In saying that though, as I said above, I'm thankful for the media/the expose - it's a boost we've all been wanting, and it's a good one that's going to help make one hell of a difference.
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Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
And... there's always next week.
This is just the beginning, not the end;
expect a media feeding frenzy,
expect increasing legal challenges,
expect mass defections,
expect Governments to forget not to notice what's been going on right under their noses for decades and decide that they probably should consider the possibility that it might potentially be time to set up investigatory bodies to explore their options and help them decide whether or not they ought to debate and discuss a proposal that they take some kind of meaningful action... hmmm, what a buzz-kill that thought was!
This is just the beginning, not the end;
expect a media feeding frenzy,
expect increasing legal challenges,
expect mass defections,
expect Governments to forget not to notice what's been going on right under their noses for decades and decide that they probably should consider the possibility that it might potentially be time to set up investigatory bodies to explore their options and help them decide whether or not they ought to debate and discuss a proposal that they take some kind of meaningful action... hmmm, what a buzz-kill that thought was!
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
amen to that Roland
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Whether you're an audit junkie in the main cult or in one of the independent cults, the bottom line is you are still a junkie who hasn't been able to come to terms with your addiction to Hubbard's hypnotic fantasy world. And I've never seen a junkie who doesn't lie about his addiction. Denial becomes a way of life
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