Commodore's Messenger tells all

[I told you I was trouble]

I have been brighter, I suppose, but actually my atrial fibrilation has dramatically improved. More than two years with pulse commonly above 130 but now consistently below 100 for two eeks and an improved sinus rhythm...

Ah OK ... I never know what to say Birdie. I know my contributions to your posts are pointless and could be seen as condescending but I promise you that is not the intent.

Anyway, for what it's worth ... you are on the minds and in the hearts of many.

 

[Gib]

Far too many to count.

But the assistance I gave to the Red Sox and Patriots is writ large in the record book

ok thanks, Well done there chief.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

ok thanks, Well done there chief.



t's gonna take three plumbers and a backhoe to get your tongue out of your cheek Gibby

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Ah OK ... I never know what to say Birdie. I know my contributions to your posts are pointless and could be seen as condescending but I promise you that is not the intent.

Anyway, for what it's worth ... you are on the minds and in the hearts of many.

Condescending?

You're a sweetheart as fun to read when your'e snippy as when you're warm.

 

[lotus]

Yes,
Lady Violet is jealous of Trubs!

 

[lotus]

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Mrs. Crawley: "I take that as a compliment."

Countess Violet: "I must've said it wrong."

 

[EZ Linus]

You mean like Hubbard and Miscavage?

 

[Mick Wenlock]

"Scientology has hurt a lot of people..." is a generality; it generalizes Scientology as a harmful thing and his is a bit sloppy.

The heart and center of Scn is training and auditing; the Academy and the HGC.

These are mostly pretty good. As it happens I didn't see people being harmed during my active period (which is not to say it didn't happen, but I wasn't witness to it)

The harm comes from questionable policies often very badly and wrongfully applied; disconnection of course being a huge item and so many other things. Of course the subject deals with intangibles and though I contend it is not ESSENTIALLY fraudulent it does lend itself to the commission of fraud (Which I did witness but am hesitant to give the particulars as I am an auditor and being posted as staff staff auditor the org as a whole was PC thus I would dishonor myself to snitch)

But little or no harm ever ensues from competent auditing.

Training...

My personal recall of it is fairly pure but as I say I kept my personal integrity as a christian and supporter of The Constiution and edited as I studied. The training is geared to INDOCTRINATING auditors rather than EDUCATING auditors and there are barbs and thorns there.

I studied auditing in terms of education and was unwilling to be indoctrinated. This my sound like a subtle difference but if you grasp it the difference is immense

The tech can be powerful but this means misapplication can be dangerous

And again I was at a class IV org; the upper levels certainly appear to have potential danger to them.

well, not to rain on any parades or anything - but the "tech" is total twaddle. From soup to nuts. It is barely coherent tripe.

 

[strativarius]

well, not to rain on any parades or anything - but the "tech" is total twaddle. From soup to nuts. It is barely coherent tripe.

CP happens to be a wonderful person with a heart of gold. So what if he's utterly deluded and sees value in the 'work' of a narcissistic fantasist and con man? Far better to patronise him and adopt a condescending attitude, that will do him much more good than trying to get him to see the error of his ways.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I have no problem, at all, with adding my opinion of Scientology to any thread where something positive is said about it. I do not condemn CP for posting about how wonderful he thinks it is. That's CP's prerogative. And I will exercise my vocabulary to the fullest extent to fin ever more ludicrous ways to describe the insanity of it.

 

[strativarius]

I have no problem, at all, with adding my opinion of Scientology to any thread where something positive is said about it. I do not condemn CP for posting about how wonderful he thinks it is. That's CP's prerogative. And I will exercise my vocabulary to the fullest extent to fin ever more ludicrous ways to describe the insanity of it.

I've been saying similar things myself and for that I've been called 'mean-spirited', although you have employed a somewhat lighter touch and I've been about as subtle as a flying brick.

Edit: The truth is it's not so much what he says that annoys me, he's free to believe what he likes and do what he likes as long as it doesn't impinge on the well-being of others, what annoys me the most is his effrontery (and this goes for the likes of mr park and others as well) in saying what he does here on esmb, where people come for respite and healing after being damaged through their involvement in the cult, only to find jokers like CP and Nolch proselytising. It really makes me angry (as some of you might have guessed).

Personally I haven't got the time. As far as I'm concerned scientology is a worthless crock and that's the beginning and end of it. Others may want to discuss the finer points of the so-called 'tek' and that's something else, but this blind allegiance to the efficacy of Hubbard's 'work' as he misguidedly calls it and all the wonderful results he is forever telling us he has had by applying it (which as far as I can tell makes him more or less unique on this message board and possibly the world) has no place here IMHO.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

well, not to rain on any parades or anything - but the "tech" is total twaddle. From soup to nuts. It is barely coherent tripe.

As you wish Mick...

You were active, I think you once said twelve years is that so?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I've been saying similar things myself and for that I've been called 'mean-spirited', although you have employed a somewhat lighter touch and I've been about as subtle as a flying brick.

Edit: The truth is it's not so much what he says that annoys me, he's free to believe what he likes and do what he likes as long as it doesn't impinge on the well-being of others, what annoys me the most is his effrontery (and this goes for the likes of mr park and others as well) in saying what he does here on esmb, where people come for respite and healing after being damaged through their involvement in the cult, only to find jokers like CP and Nolch proselytising. It really makes me angry (as some of you might have guessed).

Personally I haven't got the time, as far as I'm concerned scientology is a worthless crock and that's the beginning and end of it. Others may want to discuss the finer points of the so-called 'tek' and that's something else, but this blind allegiance to the efficacy of Hubbard's 'work' as he misguidedly calls it and all the wonderful results he is forever telling us he has had by applying it (which as far as I can tell makes him more or less unique on this message board and possibly the world) has no place here IMHO.

Not everyone who has shown up on this board is someone harmed by CoS or totally negative about the ideas of it.

And these have been convinced by you and other hard core they don't belong here and they left.

I WAS harmed by the organization but I still find excellence in mr hubbard's magnum opus

 

[I told you I was trouble]

CP happens to be a wonderful person with a heart of gold. So what if he's utterly deluded and sees value in the 'work' of a narcissistic fantasist and con man? Far better to patronise him and adopt a condescending attitude, that will do him much more good than trying to get him to see the error of his ways.

What result do you expect to achieve for Birdie (or anyone else for that matter) at this stage in his life by getting him to see the "error of his ways" strat style?

Are you perfect yourself?

Did everything you wanted to achieve in life happen?

Are you a veteran?

I expect most of us have fallen flat on our faces at times, some of us may have needed a bit of help and some of us managed to scramble back up and get things back together alone ... but none of us needed someone on the sidelines yelling at us while we were down and attempting to remove the one thing that was comforting "for our own good" ... and that is all I have been trying to convey.

When you are living on the street at the age of 70 with extreme ill health you may have a bit more right to offer others in similar circumstances your advice ... I hope that never happens.

 

[lotus]

Far better to patronise him and adopt a condescending attitude, that will do him much more good than trying to get him to see the error of his ways.

Stratsky,
What you call "condescending attitude" may be what other people call "empathy and humanity"
in their attitude toward a person already deprived of ressources and becoming fragile..


Also, when the obvious becomes obviously obvious and reach the total obviousness level..
May be for some people, then it's time to give up on conversion and allow a humain being to have what he needs to have..when a little comfort in thoughts, opinions and beliefs is the only comfort he can expect...

If this is condescending, then I am guilty and I wish , condescendent, but gentle people aside me when I arrive at a very challenging time in my life, deprived of ressources and fragile.

 

[EZ Linus]

I never felt I've been condescending to CP or anyone, not since I left Scientology. I used to be. I used to think I "knew" better. I'm not saying I know anything "better" than CP, but when him, or anyone here, begins speaking about the tech, as if it is all good, I do have a problem with it. I mean, I haven't been here in a while because I don't really feel like it's a place for someone like me, if I am being fully honest.

I'll just disclose the fact that I feel outnumbered with how many independent Scientologists there are out there in the "anti" Scientology community. Learning this has made me want to forget about any crusade I had to begin with: speaking out, or warning people about the dangers of Scientology. Why should I try to convince anyone, especially those that are very set in their ways, who don't want to, or can't, believe anything different than Hubbard having had the answers to life. It's no different than speaking to a Christian about there not being a Jesus. I don't go around doing that either, especially because it can be construed as mean-spirited. Who am I to try to take away people's hope and fantasies, or what they believe to be "Truth." Christians don't like scientific truths either. It messes with their truths. You have discussions with them and everything gets very heated and someone's always an asshole, and, it's usually the one trying to tell the other person to open their eyes to reality. It's the realist that is seen as the unsympathetic one. The patronizing one. The "liberal intellectual," or whatever negative term that's convenient.

It's not that I don't voice my opinion. I do. I wrote a damn book. It's all in there, but that's not a conversation. If someone doesn't agree with my point of view, they can take it up with me personally, but truthfully, I'm not here to convert anyone out of Scientology. I admit, I hope to warn them. I hope to get people that are still in to question it, and I have. And for that, I am definitely an SP.

I've also turned people onto Scientology. I'll probably never forgive myself for it. Many of them are still in and more fanatical about it than I ever was. I've reconnected to the people they've left in their wake (their friends and family who were never in, but who hurt because their loved one joined and disconnected from them because they weren't supportive), and those people don't forgive me either. And how can I blame them? I've ruined their loved ones' lives forever. I wrote that book for those reasons too.

Sometimes I wonder, if I didn't make myself an SP, I could have access to those people and pull them out. But I know I can't. So I kind of had the idea I could try then to help others to never get involved in the first place--seems easier than trying to spend a lot of energy on one person that was in, then left, but wants to continue practicing the thing that is dangerous at the core of it all. That conman Ron sprinkled a bit of common sense and things that may work on some people and not on others, and for that, he convinced a few that there's something to his philosophies.

Some people will never leave the tech. I can't fix those people, or the bulldogs that won't let go of the bone.

But I joined Scientology to help people. I left and now speak out to help people to leave or not get involved, or to help them understand how people get ensnared, not just with Scientology but with any cult or narcissistic group, person, idea, or entity. I guess to be called condescending when this is all a person wishes to do, I suppose it's a little insulting, disheartening, and/or frustrating. I think it's mainly because you feel like no one is listening to your point of view. Sometimes, people can get desperate and lash out because they want to be heard, but I don't think the intention is to be a meanie.

As for those of us that are fragile, and we all are at sometime or another, if not all at once underneath it all, I would never have a thought to break down a person in such a state. If say CP, or someone like him (a person with a very differing view than I have) needed mercy from me on the way I was coming at them on an opposing view, I'd back down. I don't need people to stop practicing Scientology. I only want to help. If someone doesn't want it, I can't help them. I will have to make the amends for what I've done in some other way.

End of my TMI rant.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Posted by EZ Linus and snipped.

I will have to make the amends for what I've done in some other way.

I hope you'll let yourself off the hook soon because as far as I can tell you haven't done anything wrong (I've read most of your posts) ... each individual made their own choices on the way in (to the cult) and again on the way out. Even if you persuaded people to join the cult they still made and continue to make their own decisions.

Many of us loathe the cofs, hubbard, miscavige, the tek, people that lecture and think they have all the answers (lol, that's probably my biggest issue both here and in the real world) and ambulance chasers trying to recruit here really irritate ... but have no real issue with people believing whatever they like for themselves ... that doesn't mean we don't argue or discuss things with them but they would have expected that when they joined ESMB ... again, they made/make their own decisions and then either hang around or not.

I don't like seeing people driven away though unless they are feral and/or blatantly trolling.

 

[strativarius]

Stratsky,
What you call "condescending attitude" may be what other people call "empathy and humanity"
in their attitude toward a person already deprived of ressources and becoming fragile..


Also, when the obvious becomes obviously obvious and reach the total obviousness level..
May be for some people, then it's time to give up on conversion and allow a humain being to have what he needs to have..when a little comfort in thoughts, opinions and beliefs is the only comfort he can expect...

If this is condescending, then I am guilty and I wish , condescendent, but gentle people aside me when I arrive at a very challenging time in my life, deprived of ressources and fragile.

Yes, you're right lotus, I'm probably a bit deficient in the empathy and humanity department where CP is concerned. Having said that, for him to constantly complain about his circumstances when he only has himself to blame does annoy me.

And then there's the irony of the situation. He constantly informs us that scientology and dianetics are wonderfully effective at improving the lives of us all, but just look at his circumstances ...

I know I should just grin and bear it and keep my mouth shut as telling him to get a grip and grow a pair obviously doesn't work, but I can't resist chiding him. I'm going to have another go at doing that.

I don't delight in baiting CP because he's weak and vulnerable, I may be many things, but a bully isn't one of them, and if I think somebody is talking bollocks I'll tell them to their face whoever they are.

What's that line from a well-known song ... 'Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way'. Maybe on the other side of the pond not being so quiet about your trials and travails is more acceptable, but for me his appeals for sympathy are toe-curlingly embarrassing and I find myself literally squirming when I read some of what he writes.

I'll have another go at keeping my nasty remarks about CP to myself from now on.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Yes, you're right lotus, I'm probably a bit deficient in the empathy and humanity department where CP is concerned. Having said that, for him to constantly complain about his circumstances when he only has himself to blame does annoy me.

And then there's the irony of the situation. He constantly informs us that scientology and dianetics are wonderfully effective at improving the lives of us all, but just look at his circumstances ...

I know I should just grin and bear it and keep my mouth shut as telling him to get a grip and grow a pair obviously doesn't work, but I can't resist chiding him. I'm going to have another go at doing that.

I don't delight in baiting CP because he's weak and vulnerable, I may be many things, but a bully isn't one of them, and if I think somebody is talking bollocks I'll tell them to their face whoever they are.

What's that line from a well-known song ... 'Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way'. Maybe on the other side of the pond not being so quiet about your trials and travails is more acceptable, but for me his appeals for sympathy are toe-curlingly embarrassing and I find myself literally squirming when I read some of what he writes.

I'll have another go at keeping my nasty remarks about CP to myself from now on.

In my life away from ESMB I am very tolerant of other people's beliefs. I've got friends and family from different cultures, with different religious beliefs, and from different political parties. We've never let that get in the way of relationships.

But here on ESMB which is (in part) a discussion forum about Scientology, it's different. This board cannot really serve any real purpose if we're not allowed to express our honest opinions about CoS, Scientology, and related subjects, or to comment on the opinions of others.
While many friendships have been made here on ESMB over the years, most people don't come here with that as their primary purpose.
Many come in an attempt to figure out WTF happened to them, or to understand the true nature of Scientology and the CoS, and to recover from the damage suffered by having gotten sucked into a cult. But if we refrain from being honest with each other out of fear of offending others I feel we're doing a disservice to each other, and to those lurking here.

If someone wishes to practice Scientology in their life and believe that Hubbard was the reincarnation of Buddha or whomever, people have a right to believe whatever they wish, as long as they're not harming others.

What I do take issue with though is when someone comes here to ESMB with an agenda to promote Scientology as a positive thing and promote Hubbard as "mankind's greatest friend" or some other similar bullshit. Because that IS harmful to others, and can cause others to fall into a trap many of us got out of.

And if someone does such a thing on ESMB we can and should respond to it IMO.

The trick is to do it in a way which aligns with a post from Ethercat and @Mick Wenlock from 6 years ago (both Admins at the time) which included this:

Attack ideas and actions = OK.
Attack people = Not OK.

In heated arguments I've been guilty of violating that in the past, but try my best these days to adhere to it.
If someone says something I disagree with I might respond to it, but target the idea, not the one promoting it.
Many genuinely good-intentioned people have beliefs that are false and/or harmful. But attacking them
personally isn't going to lead them to any realization.

All that said, if someone newly out of the CoS comes here to ESMB, I'm not going to jump all over them, forcefully refuting their ideas they may have about Scientology. That would just overwhelm some people, causing them to leave. It can take years to remove the cult BS out of your head, and many newly out don't even realize yet that it's in their head.