Communicating with 2nd generation Scientologists...

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
I'd like to throw out a question to those who were Scientologists with children. During the filming of my videos, I've had the opportunity to have some interesting comm cycles with the PAC Base guards (all 2nd generation members) and several teenagers whose parents are still in the church. Amazingly, I've been able to talk to them via email, phone and even meeting at a Starbucks after meeting through Facebook and Twitter.

It is one thing to talk to a Scientology adult who joined the church at some time in their life... it's a much different situation addressing 2nd generation members that have grown from cradle to where they are today as Scientologists.

I had an interesting comm not long ago with a PAC Base guard using references from old coursebooks and talking about my experiences in the church, good and bad. I told him about some very nice Scientologists I worked with that continue to be active Scientologists. He eventually warmed up to me.. yes, remaining concious & a bit suspicious because I am a SP hanging around with dangerous anons.... but he spoke freely and told me about his growing up in the church, his family and parents. It was a very worthwhile conversation.

I also wanted to convey to him that there is alot of former Scientologists that are concerned about abuses in the church and how people are treated, i.e., the disconnection policy, and leave him with something to think about. I did not talk about wanting him to leave Scientology because I knew what his response would be.

He broke off our conversation temporarily so he could take a scheduled coffee break. I suspect that the "break" was more of an opportunity to share intel with Kirsten Caetano or Charlie Earl, but he returned 10 minutes later with 2 cups of coffee.. totally unexpected. The coffee totally sucked... burnt... how I remember it when I was at PAC a decade ago.

Towards the end of our comm, I talked to him about SO pay and was surprised to learn that being paid on a weekly basis was no longer a surety, that stats have played a very important role on whether an entire department is paid a stipend for the week...it's no longer on an individual basis (as was the case when I was in).

After telling me some things I won't reveal here, I tried to give him $20 to help him out and he wouldn't take it from me. I sensed alot of fear on his part. So, I showed him the $20 bill, dropped it at his feet, and told him, "Oh look, someone lost a $20 bill and it's not mine." After some coazing, he put it in his pocket. And reached out to shake my hand. Wow!

This openness that this guard conveyed towards me was not a huge surprise because several of the other guards I've spoken to with consideration & kindness, will respond to you in the same manner. Cursing & yelling at them, yelling OT-3 and shoving signs in their faces don't produce the same effect. I've even had guards ask me what the protesters are all about because they see fine-looking women in the bunch being nice & respectful, and it totally undermines what they've been told about the "evil" protesters. The guard I talked to was taken aback when I told him I'm a former Scientologist because the PAC guards are drilled to believe that the critics are ALL evil troublemakers that have never stepped a foot into Scientology.

But it is difficult to discuss LRH policy and how the world outside Scientology is a so much freer & healthier place to someone whose entire life has been in Scientology and under its control. It's also difficult trying to educate anons & critics about the correct way of protesting Scientology & reaching out to 2nd gen Scientologists who know nothing, but Scientology.

I would appreciate any input ex-Scn parents here have towards talking to 2nd generation Scns. Thank you.
 
Last edited:

everfree

Patron Meritorious
Sounds like a very interesting conversation and one handled with tact.

After telling me some things I won't reveal here, I tried to give him $20 to help him out and he wouldn't take it from me. I sensed alot of fear on his part. So, I showed him the $20 bill, dropped it at his feet, and told him, "Oh look, someone lost a $20 bill and it's not mine." After some coazing, he put it in his pocket. And reached out to shake my hand. Wow!

Do I gather you were in SO yourself? All SO are warned constantly against "External Influences" so they can't accept gifts, even from their parents sometimes. I'm surprised he took it.

This openness that this guard conveyed towards me was not a huge surprise because several of the other guards I've spoken to with consideration & kindness, will respond to you in the same manner. Cursing & yelling at them, yelling OT-3 and shoving signs in their faces don't produce the same effect. I've even had guards ask me what the protesters are all about because they see fine-looking women in the bunch being nice & respectful, and it totally undermines what they've been told about the "evil" protesters.

My mother always told me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, I think it's completely the right tactic to take with those still in. For example, order a pizza and have it delivered to an org - you know there are people there who are hungry. Sign it "Anonymous". To me, that's the best type of "dead agenting" rather than the vitriol the church always dishes out. It will give those within something to think about. After all, I don't recall Management ever going to so much trouble as a pizza for me in all the years I was in.


The guard I talked to was taken aback when I told him I'm a former Scientologist because the PAC guards are drilled to believe that the critics are ALL evil troublemakers that have never stepped a foot into Scientology.

Again, perfect "dead agenting". I think things like that will eventually do some real good. Thanks.
 
Just thoughts, so don't want them to sound too authorative.

I have lived in cultures very differnet from where I grew up.

I imagine that 2nd generation Sc'ts who have been in the SO a long time, gone to scn schools etc, can end up with a very different cult-ural background that other Scn's.
I imagine this produces a sort of cultral distance bewteen them and wogs. That cultural distance might be a factor in the way the security guard were reasonably accepting of you. I imagine some 1st generationers may be less "neutral" because they have more conflicts and inner conflicts than those who do not really know what it is like to be a wog. This is how it is sometimes when you live in a different culture. You go into "neutral" to some degree. For example I have sometimes said things in a not very polite way where I lived (without realizing it till later). The "other" would have "charge" on it if someone in their own culture did it, but because I am not one of them, they know it it not done deliberately. So 2nd generation scns
talking to a "wog" (outside the org) are talking to a sort of unknown quantity. I imagine they would be more observing and passive than a 1st generation scnt who already "knows" how antagonistic you are and specifically why and on specifically what details.

Secondly, I wonder if some security guards have a more observing "wait and see what happens" attitude to things as pasrt of their job. In doing their job they cannot be too trigger-happy (reactive), they have to have a 'find out" attitude, so that they know what action, if any, they should take.

Thirdly, security guys, I imagine are away from the group more. Outside the building with less all-day everyday reinforcement and bonding than those inside. Gives then a bit of "headspace" to relax etc. They are literally more on the fringe than in the center.
 

altruistichedonist

Patron with Honors
Sounds like a very interesting conversation and one handled with tact.

Do I gather you were in SO yourself? All SO are warned constantly against "External Influences" so they can't accept gifts, even from their parents sometimes. I'm surprised he took it.
My mother always told me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, I think it's completely the right tactic to take with those still in. For example, order a pizza and have it delivered to an org - you know there are people there who are hungry. Sign it "Anonymous". To me, that's the best type of "dead agenting" rather than the vitriol the church always dishes out. It will give those within something to think about. After all, I don't recall Management ever going to so much trouble as a pizza for me in all the years I was in.

Again, perfect "dead agenting". I think things like that will eventually do some real good. Thanks.

Although I'm not surprised he took it. For me, if someone dropped a weeks wages in front of me when every dollar counts, I'd have gentlemanly refused it first and then accepted.

I think you've hit a great idea. Kill 'em with kindness. signed anonymous.

Thanks Smurf.
 
Last edited:

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Lord of the Flies was a horror story because these were 'civilized' children, but, I dare someone to read LOF and not see Scientology parallels :)

Zinj
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
You handled that absolutely perfectly. Being a second generation Scientologist myself once I can tell you that my first response to someone being critical of Scientology was to not want to talk to them. And remove myself from their "space". The challenge left me with no answer. But I still refused to really look.

Someone being concerned and showing care for me was much much easier to listen to. And made me think more about it.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
When I was still in the bubble as a teen sometimes scientology would come up as a negative in school or wherever, I just instantly zoned ot to another world in my mind not really listening or paying attention. I guess that what you did is the best way to treat a 2nd gen sciboy. Who can refuse kindness?
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I'd like to throw out a question to those who were Scientologists with children. During the filming of my videos, I've had the opportunity to have some interesting comm cycles with the PAC Base guards (all 2nd generation members) and several teenagers whose parents are still in the church. Amazingly, I've been able to talk to them via email, phone and even meeting at a Starbucks after meeting through Facebook and Twitter.

It is one thing to talk to a Scientology adult who joined the church at some time in their life... it's a much different situation addressing 2nd generation members that have grown from cradle to where they are today as Scientologists.

I had an interesting comm not long ago with a PAC Base guard using references from old coursebooks and talking about my experiences in the church, good and bad. I told him about some very nice Scientologists I worked with that continue to be active Scientologists. He eventually warmed up to me.. yes, remaining concious & a bit suspicious because I am a SP hanging around with dangerous anons.... but he spoke freely and told me about his growing up in the church, his family and parents. It was a very worthwhile conversation.

I also wanted to convey to him that there is alot of former Scientologists that are concerned about abuses in the church and how people are treated, i.e., the disconnection policy, and leave him with something to think about. I did not talk about wanting him to leave Scientology because I knew what his response would be.

He broke off our conversation temporarily so he could take a scheduled coffee break. I suspect that the "break" was more of an opportunity to share intel with Kirsten Caetano or Charlie Earl, but he returned 10 minutes later with 2 cups of coffee.. totally unexpected. The coffee totally sucked... burnt... how I remember it when I was at PAC a decade ago.

Towards the end of our comm, I talked to him about SO pay and was surprised to learn that being paid on a weekly basis was no longer a surety, that stats have played a very important role on whether an entire department is paid a stipend for the week...it's no longer on an individual basis (as was the case when I was in).

After telling me some things I won't reveal here, I tried to give him $20 to help him out and he wouldn't take it from me. I sensed alot of fear on his part. So, I showed him the $20 bill, dropped it at his feet, and told him, "Oh look, someone lost a $20 bill and it's not mine." After some coazing, he put it in his pocket. And reached out to shake my hand. Wow!

This openness that this guard conveyed towards me was not a huge surprise because several of the other guards I've spoken to with consideration & kindness, will respond to you in the same manner. Cursing & yelling at them, yelling OT-3 and shoving signs in their faces don't produce the same effect. I've even had guards ask me what the protesters are all about because they see fine-looking women in the bunch being nice & respectful, and it totally undermines what they've been told about the "evil" protesters. The guard I talked to was taken aback when I told him I'm a former Scientologist because the PAC guards are drilled to believe that the critics are ALL evil troublemakers that have never stepped a foot into Scientology.

But it is difficult to discuss LRH policy and how the world outside Scientology is a so much freer & healthier place to someone whose entire life has been in Scientology and under its control. It's also difficult trying to educate anons & critics about the correct way of protesting Scientology & reaching out to 2nd gen Scientologists who know nothing, but Scientology.

I would appreciate any input ex-Scn parents here have towards talking to 2nd generation Scns. Thank you.

A bit of kindness goes a long way. I'm sure that he was touched by yours. Smilla.
 

FinallyFree

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am second gen so I can't answer your question - but I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for the time you spent with that guard, thank you for being polite and nice and thank you for giving that poor guy $20.

This type of handling is what will get scientologists to really start looking at the truth. I agree with you that kindness goes a lot further than yelling insults at people (hello AO).

Anyways, I was on staff at LAD myself in the 90’s for 7 years. I didn’t know that the staff and S.O. have been told that us critics have never been in scientology. What a hoot, I forgot that one completely. Yeah, I wonder if those who are still in knew that most critics are actually EX scientologists.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
[...]

He broke off our conversation temporarily so he could take a scheduled coffee break. I suspect that the "break" was more of an opportunity to share intel with Kirsten Caetano or Charlie Earl, but he returned 10 minutes later with 2 cups of coffee.. totally unexpected. The coffee totally sucked... burnt... how I remember it when I was at PAC a decade ago.

Towards the end of our comm, I talked to him about SO pay and was surprised to learn that being paid on a weekly basis was no longer a surety, that stats have played a very important role on whether an entire department is paid a stipend for the week...it's no longer on an individual basis (as was the case when I was in).

After telling me some things I won't reveal here, I tried to give him $20 to help him out and he wouldn't take it from me. I sensed alot of fear on his part. So, I showed him the $20 bill, dropped it at his feet, and told him, "Oh look, someone lost a $20 bill and it's not mine." After some coazing, he put it in his pocket. And reached out to shake my hand. Wow!

This openness that this guard conveyed towards me was not a huge surprise because several of the other guards I've spoken to with consideration & kindness, will respond to you in the same manner. Cursing & yelling at them, yelling OT-3 and shoving signs in their faces don't produce the same effect. I've even had guards ask me what the protesters are all about because they see fine-looking women in the bunch being nice & respectful, and it totally undermines what they've been told about the "evil" protesters. The guard I talked to was taken aback when I told him I'm a former Scientologist because the PAC guards are drilled to believe that the critics are ALL evil troublemakers that have never stepped a foot into Scientology.

But it is difficult to discuss LRH policy and how the world outside Scientology is a so much freer & healthier place to someone whose entire life has been in Scientology and under its control. It's also difficult trying to educate anons & critics about the correct way of protesting Scientology & reaching out to 2nd gen Scientologists who know nothing, but Scientology.

I would appreciate any input ex-Scn parents here have towards talking to 2nd generation Scns. Thank you.


Staff, particularly SO, will not take your money. They have been taught that people who want something from you will buy your allegiance in this way. A covert way such as in buying you a lunch where actual money does not change hands also works for the same effect in their narrow minds. You are viewed as an "outside influence." This is considered a most undesirable thing magnified by paranoia. The entirety of "the tech" has to do with the elimination of outside influences -- except for Hubbard's outside-your-universe influence.

People in scientology from a very early age tend to know just what they have been told, and they have been told that the "wog" world is a dangerous place; the org is not. If their direct perception of the org environment is one of danger, or no joy, the outside world must be really screwed up!

If I was having this conversation (as above) I think I could make some headway by discussing the need for more Obnosis, Objectives, and not-is-ness of cognitive dissonance. Under Obnosis there are some things worthy of discussion: the orgs are just about empty, no one is having any fun, and few can afford the entire Bridge, and very few staffs get trained or audited on those things they really want training and auditing for.
 

ILived1984!

Patron with Honors
Smurf, I just wanted to say that your treating the guards and other 2nd Gen Scientologists with respect and courtesy is most excellent. That in itself, as you pointed out, is in complete confict with what SO members are told. A

Although I had some run-ins with guards at PAC that I didn't care for while I was there, they were usually nice guys. Being a former Scn yourself you probably know that most Scns have good intentions for others.

Having dealt a lot with 2nd gen in the Sea Org, including marrying one (I'm 1st gen) I found myself in wonder at their lack of knowledge of the rest of the world and taken aback by notions they drilled into their heads including, in general, that WOGs are inferior since they don't use the tech of Scn or Dn, that people who go against policy and command intention are essentialy evil and that SPs are vile, loathesome creatures who are always wanting to hurt good people.

The guard probably found you to be a curiousity, maybe even in his mind to be worthy of pity, or genuinley is taking a liking to you. Either way, I applaud your approach and see it as effective. Your behavior, if I knew you were a declared SP, would have had a very profound effect on me while I was in the SO.
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
Agreement

I'd like to throw out a question to those who were Scientologists with children. During the filming of my videos, I've had the opportunity to have some interesting comm cycles with the PAC Base guards (all 2nd generation members) and several teenagers whose parents are still in the church. Amazingly, I've been able to talk to them via email, phone and even meeting at a Starbucks after meeting through Facebook and Twitter.

It is one thing to talk to a Scientology adult who joined the church at some time in their life... it's a much different situation addressing 2nd generation members that have grown from cradle to where they are today as Scientologists.

I had an interesting comm not long ago with a PAC Base guard using references from old coursebooks and talking about my experiences in the church, good and bad. I told him about some very nice Scientologists I worked with that continue to be active Scientologists. He eventually warmed up to me.. yes, remaining concious & a bit suspicious because I am a SP hanging around with dangerous anons.... but he spoke freely and told me about his growing up in the church, his family and parents. It was a very worthwhile conversation.

I also wanted to convey to him that there is alot of former Scientologists that are concerned about abuses in the church and how people are treated, i.e., the disconnection policy, and leave him with something to think about. I did not talk about wanting him to leave Scientology because I knew what his response would be.

He broke off our conversation temporarily so he could take a scheduled coffee break. I suspect that the "break" was more of an opportunity to share intel with Kirsten Caetano or Charlie Earl, but he returned 10 minutes later with 2 cups of coffee.. totally unexpected. The coffee totally sucked... burnt... how I remember it when I was at PAC a decade ago.

Towards the end of our comm, I talked to him about SO pay and was surprised to learn that being paid on a weekly basis was no longer a surety, that stats have played a very important role on whether an entire department is paid a stipend for the week...it's no longer on an individual basis (as was the case when I was in).

After telling me some things I won't reveal here, I tried to give him $20 to help him out and he wouldn't take it from me. I sensed alot of fear on his part. So, I showed him the $20 bill, dropped it at his feet, and told him, "Oh look, someone lost a $20 bill and it's not mine." After some coazing, he put it in his pocket. And reached out to shake my hand. Wow!

This openness that this guard conveyed towards me was not a huge surprise because several of the other guards I've spoken to with consideration & kindness, will respond to you in the same manner. Cursing & yelling at them, yelling OT-3 and shoving signs in their faces don't produce the same effect. I've even had guards ask me what the protesters are all about because they see fine-looking women in the bunch being nice & respectful, and it totally undermines what they've been told about the "evil" protesters. The guard I talked to was taken aback when I told him I'm a former Scientologist because the PAC guards are drilled to believe that the critics are ALL evil troublemakers that have never stepped a foot into Scientology.

But it is difficult to discuss LRH policy and how the world outside Scientology is a so much freer & healthier place to someone whose entire life has been in Scientology and under its control. It's also difficult trying to educate anons & critics about the correct way of protesting Scientology & reaching out to 2nd gen Scientologists who know nothing, but Scientology.

I would appreciate any input ex-Scn parents here have towards talking to 2nd generation Scns. Thank you.

I agree with your philosophy and would not appear with Anonymous for the

reasons you have said. OT-3 info is only for sensationalism and breaks any

possible agreement or shared reality possible.

I've thought of many possible signs for these demonstrations, although the

CO$ seems to prevent anyone from seeing them.

For instance LRH says that one of the oldest tricks in this universe which the

CO$ is using right now is: To tell someone that it is not safe to look

somewhere. That somewhere in this case is the internet.

How does one get the folks inside to LOOK at the INTERNET.

Once that is done the game is over and they will leave, mostly.
 
Top