Consider David Miscavage

[David C Gibbons]

Dear ESMB Folks,

I have not personally met Mr. Miscavage. I had seen him in quite a few event videos. (Far too many, actually ☺) I have learned quite a bit more about him on this board, and on other sites where people speak out about Scientology. I am interested in him and his ascension to power as a commentary on Scientology and the Church of Scientology.

To begin with, I would suggest that Mr. Miscavage is not an aberration. From my start in 1975, I saw enough to know that bullying and intimidation were not something that just started upon Mr. Miscavage's arrival at the top of the Church's hierarchy.

He grew to adulthood in the Sea Org culture. I believe he saw what was going on, and realized that the methods he employs would work, despite the ocean of Church and Hubbard policy and pronouncements to the contrary.

He looked across the executive structure, and realized that the 'elite of the planet'
could be dominated, cowed, overwhelmed, beaten into submission, and turned against each other. He proceeded to do so. He saw that there were some people in the high echelons who would be his supporters, no matter what he did. He saw that there were people who would turn their hands against other Scientologists on his order or whim.

Perhaps he perceived early on that all of the OT powers, Scientology Justice, etc. were not effective against his chosen methods. Perhaps he realized that OT sycophants would set aside all moral qualms and common decency to stay on the right side of power, or to avoid being targeted.

He may even hold all tech and policy in contempt, for he doesn't seem to really follow much or any of it. Certainly his folding up OT's and highly-trained tech terminals like tissue paper must not give him a high opinion of the upper bridge. He doesn't need tech and policy: he has his own way of doing things, and they have obviously worked for him, no matter how much abuse is heaped upon him by the less moderate folks here and elsewhere.

I suggest to you all that he is the embodiment of all of the flaws and failings of Scientology and the Church. As such, there is a certain justness and aptness to his occupation of the seat of power. He is, in a sense, the perfect man to lead the Church and Official Scientology. It makes plain how wrong things are, for those who care to look past the SHINY! of Events and Ideal Orgs.

Should he be struck down, and with nothing else changed, it may well be that another would simply take his place, and no change in the culture of the Church and Scientology would happen.

For these reasons, I do not think that focusing ONLY on Mr. Miscavage is the solution. (Getting George Bush or Obama out of the American Presidency didn't or won't magically fix America either.)

Reaching out to the many Scientologist peons (like I was) who tolerate daily the many wrongnesses in the Church and Scientology is a surer route to lasting change. (Or the dissolution of the entire structure.) Thus this board, which speaks out in the hopes that some breath of freedom makes it over the walls of ethics, tech, and policy and reaches the hearts of those trapped inside.

Certainly, pointing out the many wrongnesses surrounding Mr. Miscavage should be done, but I suggest that pointing out the small day-to-day failures, stupidities, and suppressions that afflict the lower staff and public could be equally effective. They need our help far more than Mr. Miscavage…

So, in the end, I maintain that David Miscavage is a symptom, not the disease that afflicts the Church and Scientology. I'll blather on about that topic in other separate, and equally windy posts. You have been warned. (grin)
---------------------------------------------

I am sure, considering the lively discussion on this board, that someone will take up and debate my points. I await your thoughts. Insult me if you will, but I offer these thoughts in all honesty.

Elevator Dave

 

[Gadfly]

He grew to adulthood in the Sea Org culture. I believe he saw what was going on, and realized that the methods he employs would work, despite the ocean of Church and Hubbard policy and pronouncements to the contrary.

So, in the end, I maintain that David Miscavage is a symptom, not the disease that afflicts the Church and Scientology. I'll blather on about that topic in other separate, and equally windy posts. You have been warned. (grin)

Elevator Dave

I snipped out two parts of what you wrote.

First, WHAT "ocean of Church and Hubbard policy and pronouncements to the contrary"? Miscavige is doing almost EXACTLY what LRH policy specifically SAYS TO DO!

Please provide some actual examples of these "Church and Hubbard policies" that are contrary to or against what Miscavige "is doing" (the methods he uses that work). Please get into some specifics instead of vague generalities and abstractions.

Miscavige is a symptom of the exact application of Hubbard's subject of Scientology. That is all. Miscavige is an example of a very good duplication, understanding and application of Hubbard's "management tech", Sea Org orders, and OSA N/W orders.

Miscavige declares people wildly and madly, just like Hubbard, at whim, based on exact LRH policy.

Miscavige's regime enforces disconnection, just like did Hubbard, based on MORE LRH policy.

Miscavige pushes for lots of money, just as did Hubbard, pushing HARD SELL at every change, based on EXACT LRH orders.

Miscavige using covert ops to go after "enemies" and critics, just as did Hubbard, also based on exact LRH instructions.

I could go on and on. Shall I? :confused2:

 

[Sautez]

I could go on and on. Shall I? :confused2:

YES!! Please share links, dox et al.
This could turn into a great comparison thread between LRH and Miscavige.

 

[GoNuclear]

I think that what it all comes down to is this, with folks reminiscing about the HubTurd vs. the Dwarfenfurher ... this one phrase should sum it all up:


At least the HubTurd had the decency to use a little bit of Vaseline!


Pete

 

[Gadfly]

I think that what it all comes down to is this, with folks reminiscing about the HubTurd vs. the Dwarfenfurher ... this one phrase should sum it all up:

At least the HubTurd had the decency to use a little bit of Vaseline!

Pete

Good one!

the Dwarfenfurher

 

[Lermanet_com]

 

[Lermanet_com]

On the net somewhere maybe on Lermanet.com is OSA's PR stat sheet - from Frank Oliver, how you add up the production of the endeavor.. and the biggest point loss was -200 for "attack on upper management"

 

[BunnySkull]

Yes, DM learned at the knee of the master on how to treat Scientologists and run an organization. He is on policy and imitating Hubbard. I'm sure he greatly look forward to the day he wouldn't be an underling and could take the reigns and rule unquestioningly and abusively as source.

My big question is how much DM truly believes in Hubbard's con. A few ex-SO I know think he is a true believer. I tend to believe he was a true believer in the early years. But now after many years at the top and witnessing all the fuck ups that have occurred while following this supposedly perfect policy. Then I assume he has been privy to lots of stuff about the real Hubbard and known many OTs who are complete jokes - well I think it could easily shake his foundations. If he has had a crisis of belief it would go a long way to explain his crazy ass, irrational behavior but so his being raised in the SO and following Hubbard.

I'd be curious to the opinions of others on DM current state of belief. Whether he's still totally buys into Hubbard's tech or if he's realized it's a fraud but hes not willing to give up the top spot in his multi-million dollar scam - it's not like he's trained or experienced to do anything in the real world. In an ultimate irony I don't even think DM could flip burgers in the wog world.

 

[Gadfly]

Arnie, I will see you one Commodore and raise you a dwarf!

 

[Free to shine]

He is truly a product of scientology. And I wouldn't call him "Mr".

 

[NoName]

I snipped out two parts of what you wrote.

First, WHAT "ocean of Church and Hubbard policy and pronouncements to the contrary"? Miscavige is doing almost EXACTLY what LRH policy specifically SAYS TO DO!

Please provide some actual examples of these "Church and Hubbard policies" that are contrary to or against what Miscavige "is doing" (the methods he uses that work). Please get into some specifics instead of vague generalities and abstractions.

Miscavige is a symptom of the exact application of Hubbard's subject of Scientology. That is all. Miscavige is an example of a very good duplication, understanding and application of Hubbard's "management tech", Sea Org orders, and OSA N/W orders.

Miscavige declares people wildly and madly, just like Hubbard, at whim, based on exact LRH policy.

Miscavige's regime enforces disconnection, just like did Hubbard, based on MORE LRH policy.

Miscavige pushes for lots of money, just as did Hubbard, pushing HARD SELL at every change, based on EXACT LRH orders.

Miscavige using covert ops to go after "enemies" and critics, just as did Hubbard, also based on exact LRH instructions.

I could go on and on. Shall I? :confused2:

Right.... But we shouldn't forget that for every piece of LRH Tech there is an opposite and equal piece of LRH Tech. Or substitute HCOB for that..... point is, LRH could at least stroke an ego or two when it was in his best interest. DM is just pure malevolence.

 

[PTS]

A recent but increasingly trusted friend observed to me that the EP of standard tech is an obliterated conscience, producing a psychopath. It would seem in this regard that Ron and Dave are bookends, ruthless, greedy, and devoid of conscience.

 

[scooter]

David Miscavige is a f*$king c#$k-s%@ker who wouldn't f*&king know a tram was up him 'til the f*&king bell rang. Sorry, just channelling the Dwarf for a minute there.

I think very little of His management "skills" or His miniscule intellect but I do admire His little creative thoughts in altering Hubbard by "discovering" "lost Source."

He has managed to offend almost everybody He has met to a greater or lesser degree if the small amount of reading I have done is correct.

And He reads everything with His name on it and He hates being SMALL

Hehehehehe

 

[Gottabrain]

^^^

Who, what? The Great Leader David Miscaviage Offend Anyone?

[video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjKGQqy_tYM[/video]

 

[Veda]

Dear ESMB Folks,

I have not personally met Mr. Miscavage. I had seen him in quite a few event videos. (Far too many, actually ☺) I have learned quite a bit more about him on this board, and on other sites where people speak out about Scientology. I am interested in him and his ascension to power as a commentary on Scientology and the Church of Scientology.

To begin with, I would suggest that Mr. Miscavage is not an aberration. From my start in 1975, I saw enough to know that bullying and intimidation were not something that just started upon Mr. Miscavage's arrival at the top of the Church's hierarchy.

-snip-

Bullying seems to have been part of Scientology for a long time. The original Fair Game Law was written in March 1965. Hubbard's "There are men dead because they attacked us," goes back to 1959. "Ruin utterly" and "Always attack (the 'attackers')" dates from 1955, and "No rights of any kind" and "Disposed of quietly and without sorrow" dates from 1951.

In 1938, in a letter to his first wife describing his newly written 'Excalibur', Hubbard exclaimed that he could "make Napoleon look like a punk."

Thirty one years later, in 1969, Hubbard wrote to Scientologists that he's "not interested in wog morality," and that he "can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday school teacher."


At random, here's some policy from Volume One of the OEC Course, HCO Division, a.k.a. a Green Volume, from 1974, HCOPL dated 23 December 1965, 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists', and on page two of that HCOPL there is a list of suppressive acts over forty lines long - most of the page.

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists...

"[Such suppressive acts include] public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] continued membership in a divergent group; continued adherence to a Suppressive Person or group pronounced a Suppressive Person or group by HCO; failure to handle or disavow or disconnect from a person demonstrably guilty of suppressive acts; being at the hire of anti-Scientology groups or persons..."

Above is published policy, but, as Miscavige knows, Scientology is patterned after the "tight conspiracy" model described in Hubbard's 1967 'Bolivar' PL, and hinted at in his 1955 'Manual of Dissemination of Material'.


According to Jesse Prince:

"Miscavige is continuing to carry out LRH's orders...

"...Miscavige is doing his best to forward Command Intention, which is contained in the huge LRH orders database of the INCOMM computer system of Scientology..." http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/jesse.htm


From Denise Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1


From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637577?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt :

"Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

"The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

"The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

"And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he 'raped' his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

"And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior', surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

"And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. 'My God! I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place...

"But the thing that's amazing, and to me terrifying, is the characteristic of the mind, my mind, your mind, and apparently many other people's minds, where I could buy this horseshit, where I could participate in it."


Jesse Prince, Legal Declaration, 1999: http://lermanet.com/reference/Jesse2inWoller.htm


An excerpt from the 1991 David Mayo (Ex Scientologist, Class XII and former Senior C/S International, and Hubbard's personal auditor) article on 'Clear':

"It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."


And from author Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo from August 1986.

"What worried me was that I saw some things he did and statements he made that showed his intentions were different from what they appeared to be...

"He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."


Oh , and welcome to ESMB.

 

[Hatshepsut]

From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637...ref_=sib_dp_pt :

"Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

"The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

"The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

from article on ars.relilgion.scientology

"LRH and I" by Julie Gillespie Mayo ( Michael Pattinson interview)

http://holysmoke.org/cos/docs/lhr-and-i-julie-mayo.txt

One of the first orders I got from Hubbard was that I was to
cancel everything the last two CS 4s had ever written. It was an impossible
task because I would have just canceled out the grade chart. What was clear
to me from this order, was that there were a line of fall guys before me. It
would be just a matter of time before, I too, would be the "who" and have my
work canceled.

As CS 4, I had various projects done and had several people
working for me at different times. LRH had written Technical Correction
Roundup in 1976 or 77 which called for a great deal of writing and
compilation. The Expanded Dianetic project was a particular nightmare -- for
many reasons. The first was that a lot of the work that had been done on it
originally was by Allan Gilbertson. LRH decided that Allan Gilbertson was a
squirrel, so he wanted the EX DN course done again, using only LRH material.
(LRH loved the idea that if there was something wrong with the tech, it was
because someone else messed it up.) The problem was that Expanded Dianetics
really wasn't fully researched to start with, and there were no, or few,
successful case histories. I remember getting a nudge from him concerning
what was taking the re-write so long. I told him that the project of
re-writing the case histories was incomplete. Much to my embarrassment,
Hubbard took what I said out of context and wrote an HCOB saying that
Training and Services Aide had found the why on Expanded Dianetics-- the
case histories hadn't been fully written up. The real problem was Expanded
Dianetics wasn't completely researched -- something I believe LRH really
didn't want to think about at the time.

Sifting through HCOBs and canceling "out tech" ones or ones
written by "other people" was something that went on constantly. The "out
tech" HCOBs were then corrected by a project and the HCOBs written by that
project would be sifted through a few years later and canceled as out tech.
In 1974 there was a project done by Molly and another girl, FMO ___. They
were supposed to change bulletins into BTBs that hadn't been written by LRH.
But the important ones were all retained as HCOBs whether they were written
by Hubbard or not. In compliance to the LRH order to me to cancel everything
written by Livingston and Shafron, I had stacks of bulletins put together
with their CSWs. The problem was, what to revise them to? I couldn't just
cancel important bulletins which described technical processes for no
reason. Most of them had been ordered written by LRH, and even though he had
ordered them canceled, he would have been furious if they were canceled with
no replacement.. snipped

Now, didn't Miscavige do the exact same thing with the NEW rewritten Basics book campaign. He got the SP transcriptionists' evil deeds out of the Tech.

 

[Hatshepsut]

I think there is something VERY 'wrong' with DM's savior complex. It is as if he truly BELIEVES he is going to save the world from itself. This has not much to do with LRH. This is about 'him' on this issue. How many maniacs have there been with this complex. I know...I know, the beings on the OUTSIDE of this universe are manipulating things and he has to foil the plot.

 

[Gadfly]

Right.... But we shouldn't forget that for every piece of LRH Tech there is an opposite and equal piece of LRH Tech. Or substitute HCOB for that..... point is, LRH could at least stroke an ego or two when it was in his best interest. DM is just pure malevolence.

Well, ummm, actually, while that idea is nice, "that for every piece of LRH Tech there is an opposite and equal piece of LRH Tech", it isn't exactly true, and it is a sort of generality.

If one takes many of Hubbard's ideas out of context, yes, then one might be able to force this vague rule to be true.

What I have found is that there are contradictions between pieces of data and behaviors. Or, while one piece of LRH data might exactly say one thing, an application of another bundle of LRH data might bring about a different outcome. Sure, there are MANY contradictions, but it isn't true "that for every piece of LRH Tech there is an opposite and equal piece of LRH Tech".

I jump on HH's bandwagon at times too because it is fun to view everything through the Hubbard Law of Commotion. But, that model is a result of pushing things pretty far (if one is aiming to be 100% ruthlessly honest and logical).

I will give a few examples.

Hubbard says in the essay, Personal Integrity, that a person should base what is true for them on observations. THAT is a very good idea. One should gauge "truth" against what you observe in the real world of behavior and activity.

But, then he designed an organization that makes it impossible to do so. There is no actual "exactly opposite and equal datum" that says to NOT base what is true for you on what you observe, but in the environment of Scn, one is forced to do just that.

That happens because of the justice policies, where it is a High Crime to speak negatively of Hubbard or Scientology, and the various information on "natter" where critical commenting becomes fixated with an attitude that the natterer MUST "have overts, W/Ws, and hidden crimes". Of course, one learns to NOT say anything that gets him or her into trouble, even if it IS based on what one has observed to be true, out of FEAR.

So, there is a contradiction there, but it is not due to "an equal and opposite dataum".

Here's another example.

It is viewed as a positive ability that one can "freely communicate easily". The ability gained of Grade 0 is, "the ability to communicate with anyone on any subject". Hubbard says elsewhere that "Communication is the Universal Solvent" (whatever THAT means - but it is a cute metaphor). He also adds in this, which some take as an opposite datum, that "the only crime in this universe is to be there and communicate". Hubbard isn't saying there that it IS a crime, but only that this universe behaves in a way that treats you as if it is. But then, again, with the way Hubbard put Scientology together, mainly due to the organizational policies, one soon finds that there are things you CANNOT ever stand there and communicate, if you want to remain in good standing.

Again, there IS a contradiction, for sure, but it involves different levels of ideas versus behavior, and different contexts. I mean really, if Hubbard actually came out and clearly stated obvious continual contradictions, one would see right through it and quickly. He is very SUBTLE about it. Also, he has SO MUCH writing, that say so many different things in so many different places, in so many different contexts, that it makes it difficult for the casual reader to notice his subterfuge. Also, if you look at what Hubbard says OVER TIME, then it becomes more obvious when and where he states very opposite ideas. Such as "Scientology is a religion", and "Scientology is science, just like physics of chemistry". Hubbard IS a "word clown"! (thank-you HH)

Another example. On the back cover of Fundamentals of Thought, on the dust cover, it claims that one of the benefits of reading this book will be:

Improve communication in the family

In Hubbard's own writings, he never actually anywhere says that as an important goal. He implies that this might be done with Scientology. Of course regges tell new people that the various Intro Courses will help them communicate better and help their relationships. Hubbard does a great deal of vague generalizing.

And while Hubbard nowhere states an "equal and opposite datum" anywhere, for instance, that "communications in families is NOT good or desirable", again, he set up the organization in a way, with ethics and justice policies, that family communication is often destroyed with SP Declares and enforced disconnection. Hubbard's PTS Tech, when enforced, often causes family members to cut-off communication with each other. The simple aspect of being on staff, or being a dedicated Scientologist, is so demanding of ones time, that often, family connections greatly reduce and fade.

So, my point is that the Hubbard Law of Commotion, while a nice sort of IDEA, is not exactly accurate. One has to force things a bit to fit within the model. There ARE many contradictions, but these are usually NOT in the same context or in the same area of topic within the subject materials. Now, maybe The Hubbard Law of Contradictions might be more accurate, but THAT doesn't have the same play on meaning with Newton's Laws of Motion (which is part of what makes it funny and ingenious)!

I haven't taken a detailed look at this, but I suspect that MANY of the contradictions result from the strict enforcement of an organizational system that holds "expanding Scientology" as the greatest good in any context. If one discards the "admin tech", I suspect that a many of the contradictions would vanish. Not all, but many.

The realm of grasping these various contradiction is complex, and Hubbard made it that way - probably intentional, as part of his system of entrapment. It really gets a person wrapped up in convoluted thinkingness.

 

[Gadfly]

Miscavige is the right sort of person for the job.

If not him, some other dictatorial, one-dimensional true believer or adept manipulator would have taken the helm.

Scientology can ONLY be run with an iron fist. Hubbard began that tradition, and it is built directly into the management system.

Miscavige's excessive "anger issues" are a minor personality quirk (in the overall scheme of things).

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

To begin with, I would suggest that Mr. Miscavage is not an aberration. From my start in 1975, I saw enough to know that bullying and intimidation were not something that just started upon Mr. Miscavage's arrival at the top of the Church's hierarchy.

Off to a good start. LRH started the bullying.

He grew to adulthood in the Sea Org culture. I believe he saw what was going on, and realized that the methods he employs would work, despite the ocean of Church and Hubbard policy and pronouncements to the contrary.

This is the point you first lose me. The methods he employed were bullying, intimidation etc set up by Hubbard. As has been previously posted, where is the policy etc to the contrary?

Perhaps he perceived early on that all of the OT powers, Scientology Justice, etc. were not effective against his chosen methods. Perhaps he realized that OT sycophants would set aside all moral qualms and common decency to stay on the right side of power, or to avoid being targeted.

OT powers do not exist. You can defeat an OT using passive resistance, or as Miscavige does, bullying. Or you can do nothing. OT powers exist only in the imagination of the deluded. If you know a single person who can exteriorize at will, and demonstrate this by exteriorizing into a room with some playing cards upturned and tell you what they are, I will believe something interesting is going on. Until then, it is just science fiction.

He may even hold all tech and policy in contempt, for he doesn't seem to really follow much or any of it.

He follows fair game to the letter. Also, why respect the tech? Can you demonstrate perfect memory recall? Or can any clear? Can you fix your eye problems by shifting attention units? The tech was hocus pocus to get people's money and that's all.

Certainly his folding up OT's and highly-trained tech terminals

Highly trained in science fiction. It's like a degree certified Trekkie. Sorry to nitpick, but I cannot accept that Scientology has any qualifications. LRH never published his 'tech' in any peer reviewed journal.

He doesn't need tech and policy: he has his own way of doing things, and they have obviously worked for him, no matter how much abuse is heaped upon him by the less moderate folks here and elsewhere.

Are you suggesting DM is the victim of abuse? I think you may need to do a locational.

I suggest to you all that he is the embodiment of all of the flaws and failings of Scientology and the Church.

His is a product of Sci, yes.

As such, there is a certain justness and aptness to his occupation of the seat of power.

Um. No. Just no. I'm not sure whether you are aware of some of the things that go on in Scientology. Forced abortions. Psychological abuse. Physical abuse. Tearing families apart. Ruining people's financial lives. There is no justice here.

He is, in a sense, the perfect man to lead the Church and Official Scientology. It makes plain how wrong things are, for those who care to look past the SHINY! of Events and Ideal Orgs.

So let's see. Miscavige is so bad that he makes what is wrong with Scientology obvious but...

Should he be struck down, and with nothing else changed, it may well be that another would simply take his place, and no change in the culture of the Church and Scientology would happen.

...someone else may be no better or worse. These are equal and opposite statements. I am not seeing a coherent argument here.

For these reasons, I do not think that focusing ONLY on Mr. Miscavage is the solution. (Getting George Bush or Obama out of the American Presidency didn't or won't magically fix America either.)

Finally we agree on something. Every point of attack should be considered. You must admit, though, taking down Miscavige may well end Scientology. Few cults survive the death of their leader and I don't think Scientology will have another change of guard. I don't think he should be the only target, but I don't see any reason to neglect going after him.

Reaching out to the many Scientologist peons (like I was) who tolerate daily the many wrongnesses in the Church and Scientology is a surer route to lasting change. (Or the dissolution of the entire structure.) Thus this board, which speaks out in the hopes that some breath of freedom makes it over the walls of ethics, tech, and policy and reaches the hearts of those trapped inside.

Certainly, pointing out the many wrongnesses surrounding Mr. Miscavage should be done, but I suggest that pointing out the small day-to-day failures, stupidities, and suppressions that afflict the lower staff and public could be equally effective. They need our help far more than Mr. Miscavage…

So, in the end, I maintain that David Miscavage is a symptom, not the disease that afflicts the Church and Scientology. I'll blather on about that topic in other separate, and equally windy posts. You have been warned. (grin)
---------------------------------------------

I am sure, considering the lively discussion on this board, that someone will take up and debate my points. I await your thoughts. Insult me if you will, but I offer these thoughts in all honesty.

Elevator Dave

And the rest of this I agree with entirely. That being said, I think most people here do agree that Miscavige shouldn't be the only focus here.