marjan

Patron with Honors
Maybe a German ESMB-member can tell if it is true that German government blacklists COS-members from certain posts. -- Yes, it is true. In many government offices you have to sign a "sect-filter" guarantee-ing that you are not a member of SCN. If you are a practicing member, in many political parties in both Germany and Austria, your party membership will be revoked.

Another question is whether German NON-government (companies, ordinary citizens) discriminate against COS-members. I guess that is not allowed in Germany as it is not allowed in the Netherlands, but.. Theoritically that is against the law. In practice, it happens every single day. I lived with 13 years of cancelled contracts, or being "dis-invited" to events. Factually, at the very pinnacle of my noteriety, could not get an audition in german-speaking Europe for 7 years.
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
I do know that in Germany COS is seen as a totalitarian cult. COS is or was under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz. Given the nazi-history it is understandable they DO NOT WANT.

See also http://www.lotsofscam.nl/TheScientologySystem.pdf . WWP thread where this was translated from German to English: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/das-system-scientology.9326/ (Actually, this was one of the first WWP- (then Enturb) projects where I helped.)

Maybe a German ESMB-member can tell if it is true that German government blacklists COS-members from certain posts.

You can't make career in German authorities or parties, when you are Scientologist. I had to lie about this as I worked for OSA in a German authority (city government)... A career in this and in a party was planned for my person by OSA. When a person would have known, I would be a Scientologist, I couldn't make career. It exist papers, where you have to explain, that you are not a Scientologist. I have signed this and lied. About blacklists, where Scientologist stands inside I never heard. But you can call the Verfassungsschutz and ask.
Another question is whether German NON-government (companies, ordinary citizens) discriminate against COS-members. I guess that is not allowed in Germany as it is not allowed in the Netherlands, but...
Imo as Scientologist it would be difficult to find a job. You have to lie about this too.
 
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TrevAnon

Big List researcher
Maybe a German ESMB-member can tell if it is true that German government blacklists COS-members from certain posts. -- Yes, it is true. In many government offices you have to sign a "sect-filter" guarantee-ing that you are not a member of SCN. If you are a practicing member, in many political parties in both Germany and Austria, your party membership will be revoked.

Another question is whether German NON-government (companies, ordinary citizens) discriminate against COS-members. I guess that is not allowed in Germany as it is not allowed in the Netherlands, but.. Theoritically that is against the law. In practice, it happens every single day. I lived with 13 years of cancelled contracts, or being "dis-invited" to events. Factually, at the very pinnacle of my noteriety, could not get an audition in german-speaking Europe for 7 years.

You can't make career in German authorities or parties, when you are Scientologist. I had to lie about this as I worked for OSA in a German authority (city government)... A career in this and in a party was planned for my person by OSA. When a person would have known, I would be a Scientologist, I couldn't make career. It exist papers, where you have to explain, that you are not a Scientologist. I have underwritten this and lied. About blacklists, where Scientologist stands inside I never heard. But you can call the Verfassungsschutz and ask.
Imo as Scientologist it would be difficult to find a job. You have to lie about this too.

LOL! Here we have something Nicole and Mark at least can agree on... :wink2:

Oh, and thanks for playing the game... (I just lost.)
 
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Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
Maybe a German ESMB-member can tell if it is true if German government blacklists COS-members from certain posts.

Another question is whether German NON-government (companies, ordinary citizens) discriminate against COS-members. I guess that is not allowed in Germany as it is not allowed in the Netherlands, but...

Yes, this is true. Scios cannot work for municipal/regional/ federal government. This is written law in Bavaria, but I'm pretty sure it is enforced in other states aw well.

In the business world things are different as interviewers are not allowed to ask job seekers about their beliefs (political, religious, ideological etc.) But every Scientologist would know not to divulge his affiliation with the cult. During the 80s and 90s there were some huge scandals about WISE ruining companies, and in some cases Scientologists tried to bring in Hubbard tech after being hired. When they were fired due to lying about their true motives for working there, they used their 2 weeks notice to steal everything they could get their hands on, including company information and planted viruses, deleted data etc.

There was also one case where Scientologists went to the press providing a stack of rejection letters pointing out that they were not hired due to their Scientology affiliation. It later turned out that most of these letters were forged, the others were written by Scientology business owners. So it was all planned to show the German public the discrimination poor Scios suffered.
 

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
I do know that in Germany COS is seen as a totalitarian cult. COS is or was under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz. Given the nazi-history it is understandable they DO NOT WANT.

See also http://www.lotsofscam.nl/TheScientologySystem.pdf . WWP thread where this was translated from German to English: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/das-system-scientology.9326/ (Actually, this was one of the first WWP- (then Enturb) projects where I helped.)

Maybe a German ESMB-member can tell if it is true if German government blacklists COS-members from certain posts.

Another question is whether German NON-government (companies, ordinary citizens) discriminate against COS-members. I guess that is not allowed in Germany as it is not allowed in the Netherlands, but...
Here's the official english version: http://www.scribd.com/doc/43680680/Bavaria-The-Scientology-system

I don't have any problem with the government watching the CoS closely. But, the unofficial discrimination is not good.
 
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marjan

Patron with Honors
"


One little thing is whether you worked with OSA or for them. Not important but I'd still comment that with all those people you worked "with" (so many, in so many places, you have difficulty remembering them) I'd guess they would have reported stats you got "for" them, not "with" them. Even without the stats, brainwashed cult control freaks may have seen your working relationship a little differently than you saw it. HOW THEY SAW MY RELATIONSHIP IS NOT MY CONCERN.


No doubt, your well-known performer status ( I humbly forgo use of the word "celebrity") would have meant a cosy, buddy, style of management of you as an employee, or volunteer. DB, as you might have gathered, I don't take orders. No one "managed" me. Everything I did, was my own idea. I controlled EVERY aspect of every appearance that I was a part of.

From day one, I spoke ONLY about religious freedom and other human rights issues. I worked WITH OSA, on a "co-ordination basis". Of course, they were using my Relgious Freedom Events to raise their own "stats". I had no stats. Just my conscience and my belief that I was trying to do the right thing. I had nothing to gain "internally" from any of what I did.


That may have helped to convince you that you were working "with" them. There is so much more ARC in that version of things.
See, I haven't said you are wrong here. I am just throwing ideas around. And you could have indeed worked only "with" them. If that's true, I could ask if your independence gave you enough distance to observe how hard they worked on manipulation to gain the goodwill of public for brainwashing, or religious conversion.
DB, as you saw in the press release that I posted, I have never tried to "convert" anyone. That was never my intention, and I stated that in ALL my press releases, and at the events themselves. I worked with representatives from MULITPLE religious movements who were being discriminated against.



By the way, You were in super frigg'n power for IAS by the sound of it. If that ain't workin for them I don't know what is. They prolly stuck a saliors badge and cap on you and forced some of the downstat OT's to work for you! Did they do that? I was their most-successful fundraiser. I have admitted that. However, no one "worked" for me. We don't do sailor's badges or caps... not a good look for an old italian.

Next thing. I haven't said you did anything illegal. We are talking about scientology here so if you had, I would not even say anything about it, like attack you, or judge you etc. I asked about that because we are after all talking about the cult of scientology, particulary OSA, and not to wonder if that is an element in a particular story could be naive, although I know that committing crimes doesn't get handed out as a task to everybody, or all departments/areas of the organization. What I am discussing is what I FACTUALLY did. My purpose was a free and open discussion of human rights issues. That is what I spoke out for.
Try as you may, you will not make me responsible for OSA's purported or actual crimes. I perpetrated no crime, fraud, soul-harvesting nor brain-washing. I never abused an audience's trust, and I gained nothing financially from anything I did for religious freedom. Quite the contrary.


I could, once again just wonder about something else which is not really important, and that is all that loot you hauled in for IAS - and other fundraising, perhaps regging? It was all above board. But was it a nice thing to do? Or did you have to, by yourself, or working with others trick or contrive to get those doners to release those wads of cash. I got some money out of people when I was in, for services, not IAS, unfortunately I was fairly incompetent at that job so didn't get much. Had I been better at the job I would have gotten a lot more. I regret some of that of course. I was raising money (so I thought) for the legal defense of individual Scientologists and Scientologist-owned companies throughout german-speaking Europe. After everything that had (so publicly) happened to me, I was extremely effective. On top of that, when I sing, people listen.

I dont' know what to say about your religious freedom crusade as it applies specifically to Germany. The cause itself is not something I completely disagree with. But you hooked up with scientologists with it, I was Scientologist at that time. I could have written a book "trashing" everything I had done for Religious Freedom because I was no longer a Scientologist. I did not do that.

My belief in the basic principals of Freedom of Religion, and more importantly Freedom of Information (especially in the media) are unchanged. WHAT HAS CHANGED is that I LEFT SCN.


On the religious freedom thing, I think religions have way too much freedom in some places, like the US, and thats why the scientology cult not only gets tax exemption, but also gets past other laws that others have to obey, and why they do not have the FBI being more proactive in stopping them. I don't give a damn about the loony cults like fundies whether christian or anything else. Scientology is a business, period. It should be treated as such. Cult or no cult, it should be held the same principle of accountability for their "products" as Sony, Phillips or GM. That they are not, is neither in the interest of their consumers or in the interest of any government.

The tax laws of the US are different than in Europe in many instances, not only regarding religions. However, that is not a discussion for here. Seperate from any discussion about SCN's moral (or lack thereof) behaviour, just on the basis of their faulty product line and dis-contented customer base, there will be reason enough, EVENTUALLY, for legal action on that front.


You were saying (in a later post), ban one- ban them all, as a sort of rhetorical shot. Would you mind if scientology got banned? IMO, if they ban one religion, they should ban them all -- or at least MAKE THEM ALL PAY TAXES.

If SCN, got banned, I personally wouldn't care. I have nothing with that organization anymore.

However, DB once we start BANNING things without legal precedent, we are sliding down a very slippery slope toward a completely "controlled" society.


But they could probably be nailed on taxes, fraud, misrepresentation of various kinds and all sorts of other juicy things. This is the way to handle the SCN issue. Take them to court.

Lastly, so I gather your book really is about your crusade for religious freedom then? My book is about my life. I have lived a really big life. PART of the book has to do with my "growing up and waking up." The persecution you experienced no doubt proves the worth of one of your life's purposes. Can you see that even though people here in general would not have much need to disagree in any way with your crusade, they are in the funny position of having been fucked over by scientologists who used real religious freedom issues plus false religious smoke and mirrors in the public area and in their personal lives, in a way which probably won't make religious freedom issues a big priority for them? Yes, I can certainly understand that. I know how FUCKED OVER feels. I was fucked over ROYALLY by my "friends" in SCN, DB.

.

MORE ANSWERS ALSO in BOLD ITALIC PRINT WITHIN THE QUOTE

I still believe that you never make a mistake in standing up for basic human rights. I saw, and see dangerous things happening in our society. That is why I applaud a LOT of what ANON is doing.

The reason I survived everything that happened, is that I never lied.
I never stole anything. I never tried to convert ANYONE to Scientology.
I did and I DO what I think is the right thing.
I believe a person's religious or philosophical beliefs (however FUCKED UP THEY MIGHT BE) are a personal and private decision.

UNTIL THE DAY that SCN has been banned for illegal activity, fraud, faulty products, false advertising or WHATEVER...
the individuals who CHOOSE to be a part of that group, SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE TO DO SO, IF THEY WANT.

if we lose the right to choose for ourselves which MISTAKES we want to make -- what has become of our society??? What has become of our lives?

I made mistakes. I see that. But they were MY choice.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
MOORE ANSWERS ALSO in BOLD ITALICK, PRINT WITHIN THE QUOTE

I stTill believe that you never make a mistake in standing up for basic hheuman rights. I saw, and see dangerredous things happening in our society. That is why I applaud a LlettersOT of what ANON iins doing.

The reason this postI survived everareything that happened mine,, is that I never lied.
I never stole anything. I never tried to convert ANYONE to Scientology.
I did and I DO what I think is the right thing.
I believe a person's religious or philosophical beliefs (however FUCKED UP THEY MIGHT BE) are a personal and private decision.

UNTIL THE DAY that SCN has been banned for illegal activity, fraud, faulty products, false advertising or WHATEVER...
the individuals who CHOOSE to be a part of that group, SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE TO DO SO, IF THEY WANT.

if we lose the right to choose for ourselves which MISTAKES we want to make -- what has become of our society??? What has become of our lives?

I made mistakes. I see that. But they were MY choice.

... so I hope you got my message and find it just as easy to reply to as I found writing it.
tl;dr,: lrn2quote.
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
Here's the official english version: http://www.scribd.com/doc/43680680/Bavaria-The-Scientology-system

I don't have any problem with the government watching the CoS closely. But, the unofficial discrimination is not good.

Why??? If I would own a company, there shouldn't work Nazis too...

The problem is, that Cof$ tell you, you should lie... That the "Wog-"World is dangerous... I lied at school etc... Imo if I would have told at school, that I am a Scientologist, I would have got directly help... But my father told me, I should have been silent about this and I believed him....
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Why??? If I would own a company, there shouldn't work Nazis too...

The problem is, that Cof$ tell you, you should lie... That the "Wog-"World is dangerous... I lied at school etc... Imo if I would have told at school, that I am a Scientologist, I would have got directly help... But my father told me, I should have been silent about this and I believed him....

Back in the days, I had my fair share of old Nazis, their kids and grand-kids plus quite a few Neo-Nazis to deal with in various situations. Classmates, teachers, seniors in some of the jobs I had, whatever. They were pretty easy to deal with when they were alone, but nearly unbeatable when they came as a group.

In 1-on-1 conversations, I managed to get many of them out of their mindset over the years, but of course I never had a chance against a whole group of 'em, because a group always has this strong self-validating and self-reassuring factor.

Same applies here, I think - or at least something similar. One lone supporter of a totalitarian regime (you) against a whole world of democratic free thinking people was a lost cause, so of course it was best to keep quiet about your strange beliefs.

However, I believe that you probably were a good little mole, but I don't believe you were happy with your role in that game.

I hope you're happier out here in the free world. :)

Oh, and maybe my favorite PIC applies here: http://www.forum.exscn.net/album.php?albumid=132&attachmentid=4066
 

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Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
Back in the days, I had my fair share of old Nazis, their kids and grand-kids plus quite a few Neo-Nazis to deal with in various situations. Classmates, teachers, seniors in some of the jobs I had, whatever. They were pretty easy to deal with when they were alone, but nearly unbeatable when they came as a group.

In 1-on-1 conversations, I managed to get many of them out of their mindset over the years, but of course I never had a chance against a whole group of 'em, because a group always has this strong self-validating and self-reassuring factor.

Same applies here, I think - or at least something similar. One lone supporter of a totalitarian regime (you) against a whole world of democratic free thinking people was a lost cause, so of course it was best to keep quiet about your strange beliefs.

However, I believe that you probably were a good little mole, but I don't believe you were happy with your role in that game.

No, I wasn't happy

I hope you're happier out here in the free world. :)
Yes I am lucky in the free world, but maybe I should leave this place here... We spoke about it, the last time and it is allways the same shit... Will think about... Now it's rime for bet.

:wink2:
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
No, I wasn't happy

Yes I am lucky in the free world, but maybe I should leave this place here... We spoke about it, the last time and it is allways the same shit... Will think about... Now it's rime for bet.

:wink2:

The good thing here is: Nobody forces you to log in, and you can logout whenever you choose to do so. There are no mandatory briefings here either, so just take a break whenever you think you need one. :coolwink:

:goodnight:
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/thre...-interview-with-subtitles.90067/#post-1828169
How come our recently "converted" OSA Spy Nicole's bashing Mark on ESMB and reproaching he "use Scientology Tech"? Looks like he after all has publicly turned against the cult. OSA spy drama wtf?

Maybe this should get now my conversation thread with Anon now...

I don't know, if I should :lol: or :bigcry:... Maybe the humour way is the right one... If I would have to decide, I would never talk again about my past.... and I will give the advice to every Ex that spied Anonymous...
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
One of the Anons on wwp said you were coming under fire here from Nicole. I haven't read the thread, as I said, but I'm sure that some pixels on a screen will be nothing to you after what you've survived.

Inform and than comment...
 

greebly

Patron with Honors
"I would never talk again about my past.... and I will give the advice to every Ex that spied Anonymous... "


100% wrong approach and the whole point of what has been done over the last few years would fail a little more. Ask Rhien about this or 004 and see how they react to those words.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/thre...-interview-with-subtitles.90067/#post-1828169


Maybe this should get now my conversation thread with Anon now...

I don't know, if I should :lol: or :bigcry:... Maybe the humour way is the right one... If I would have to decide, I would never talk again about my past.... and I will give the advice to every Ex that spied Anonymous...

Well, we've had drama import, we've had drama export, now you're re-importing it. What for? What purpose does it serve?

Seriously, I can't tell you whether you should :lol: or not, but I am really saddened that you keep this stale warmed-up drama going. :sad:

About your advice for Ex-spies: I (once again) may be the only one who thinks like that, but ... Ugh, OK, let me ask you a question or two:

How could I help (and support) someone who isn't playing fair and honest with me, and why should I?
 
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Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
Well, we've had drama import, we've had drama export, now you're re-importing it. What for? What purpose does it serve?
I was in rage... and I promissed not to pot anymore on WWP!
Seriously, I can't tell you whether you should :lol: or not, but I am really saddened that you keep this stale warmed-up drama going. :sad:
see above...

About your advice for Ex-spies: I (once again) may be the only one who thinks like that, but ... Ugh, OK, let me ask you a question or two:

How could I help (and support) someone who isn't playing fair and honest with me, and why should I?
Where haven't I played fair with you and where I wasn't honest?...:unsure:

:)

Nicole
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Well, we've had drama import, we've had drama export, now you're re-importing it. What for? What purpose does it serve?
I was in rage... and I promissed not to pot anymore on WWP!

Rage is NEVER a good adviser. Can we agree on that? And having promised not to post on WWP anymore is not a good excuse for dragging it back to here. Sometimes one has just to let go. :coolwink:

Again: Drama Import, export, re-import, re-export is a beautiful infinite loop, and an exciting game for everyone involved, which is why it can be kept going for many decades to come, but it will never be good for anything positive - all it will ever be able to, is keep itself going. So once you see such an infinite loop, just break it and be done with it.

see above...


Where haven't I played fair with you and where I wasn't honest?...:unsure:

:)

Nicole

As far as I can say, you've been fair and honest to me so far, but:

If I would have to decide, I would never talk again about my past.... and I will give the advice to every Ex that spied Anonymous...

^^^ What's this? Is this a language issue or are you seriously advising other Exes to not say what they have done?
 
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