Convicted Scientology Criminals

[DCAnon]

How hard is it to dig up statistics of the incidence of similar crimes in the general population? (I don't know the answer to that question.)

Along with the dates of the crimes and/or convictions DCA has provided, then one could maybe come up with a statement like "the number of people who were Scientologists (needs a clarifying definition in this case, such as "described themselves as Scios" or "had completed one or more training or auditing services in the CofS, even if 20 years prior" or "looked at a Dianetics book once but never did anything with it" or whatever) and were convicted of felonies — per the referenced data — is greater/lesser [delete one] than the number in the general population for the same time period."

This may be a somewhat meaningful statement. It's like the OTs dying of cancer. Sure, lots of OTs have died of cancer. But does it MEAN ANYTHING? That data is not known.

Plus the cause/effect relationship is not known. A criminal who then dabbles in Scn, or even embraces it wholeheartedly, may remain criminal. Scn is not "to blame" for the criminality, unless one is assuming that contact with Scn magically erases all criminal tendencies.

Paul

I dunno, this is just raw data. Once it's a bit more finished, people can start doing work to analyze it if they'd like. My requirements for this list are that it was an active Scientologist and not someone who had left the church, someone who had been convicted and found guilty in a court of law, and someone where the proof of their conviction came from something other than ARS or just a critics site like a news source I could check or a court document. I just wanted to get accurate, researched info out there because it's already out there, just not organized. Also, when they call me a terrorist who is part of a hate group that they claim committed all kinds of unknown and unproven crimes, I can always go neener neener neener.

 

[Dulloldfart]

I just wanted to get accurate, researched info out there because it's already out there, just not organized. Also, when they call me a terrorist who is part of a hate group that they claim committed all kinds of unknown and unproven crimes, I can always go neener neener neener.

Yes, for those purposes it works just fine.

Paul

 

[clamicide]

2 cents, not like anyone asked me...

Personally, I love seeing this list. I don't believe it shows Scientologists to be more likely to be criminals. Someone coming to that conclusion would probably already decided that point and falsely use the list as 'proof'. Is someone posting information responsible for others' illogical conclusions? DCs statements seem to be pretty straightforward about her reasons for doing this.

As far as not being able to separate Scientology out from the individuals, I think in a 'reverse' way, that is part of the reason this could be helpful especially for new exes and those questioning their involvement. It is IN THE CULT where many of us were taught it was one & the same. Scios were the 'good guys' we were told. You did business with, worked for, married and befriended other Scios--because you wanted to deal with people who had the same ethical values you did. Never could quite trust a wog in the same way... When another Scio effed you over, you better look at how you contributed to it. Horrible out-ethics were always buried. No legal recourse-you see the Chaplain.

Wasn't until I had access to ethics files and pc folders that I realised what awful things were being done and how many were being hurt. Joe Public, coming out and questioning, still confused about his doubts about this incrediblely ethical group deserves to see that evil is also perpetrated by those 'upstats'. And the cult shining their megaton flashlight on anyone who has anything to do with dissension, psychiatry and the like? After YEARS of briefings about all those crimes, and the scorn & laughter about SPs & critics scurrying to cover their tracks, I admit I like to see the cult having to operate on the 'other flow'.

 

[Mystic]

This Threat

I just now found this thread...oh, is only 2 days old. This is hilarious. Oh DC you've done it again! The list of legally embroiled crooks, criminals, murderers and overall scumbags is definitely a

Would be great to see this written up in a pamphlet as a handout.

Edit: Yes, "This THREAT" is not a typo.

 

[Mystic]

I love you

Just to clear up any confusion, every name on this list has been researched and verified as both a Scientologist and that they've been convicted, not just arrested (unless stated specifically). Everything has to be checked and must be listed from a known media source or from court documents to prove an actual conviction took place. The sources for each and every name has been cited and linked in the list for your independent verification if you'd like to go through it. If I couldn't find evidence or if the only evidence was solely from critic sites or ARS postings, I didn't include it.

I'm a dox or GTFO kind of gal. Proof is everything.

I love you. Just great, just great.

 

[Mystic]

the right err

Well, Björkist, looks like you have erred with L. ron BlubFlub and are quite right with Agent Pubesit.

 

[Axiom142]

...

It's like the OTs dying of cancer. Sure, lots of OTs have died of cancer. But does it MEAN ANYTHING? That data is not known.

...

It means that Scientology doesn't stop you dying of cancer. Despite what we were told about OTV handling all physical conditions.

Axiom142

 

[Axiom142]

I knew Colin years ago from London org. I was commuting from Norwich to London at weekends and staying with staff members Friday and Saturday nights. This would have been around 1985. I stayed around Colin's house several times, even though he lived miles away, West of London somewhere. He drove me there and back as he was also on course at the time. I liked him. He was Clear at the time and told me he had spent £100,000 getting there. (Little did I know at the time that I would also spend the same amount to not even get that far! ) He was running a contract agency at that time. I had wondered what had happened to him.

I totally agree with Ax that Scientology induced out-ethics needs to be publicised. As indeed does Scientology induced psychosis, premature death, divorce, and any other non-optimum circumstances. Scientologists only get one side of the picture, which is not accurate reporting, it is biassed PR.

Lesolee,

Colin would have been released around 2001. I do not recall seeing his name on any completion lists from St Hill after that time, which is not surprising. Due to the public embarrassment caused to the CoS, I doubt that he would be allowed back on lines anytime soon. And I don’t suppose that getting convicted did his future job prospects much good. There are many companies that would never allow you to work for them if you had that sort of conviction.

His case particularly sticks in my mind as I used to drive past his house in Dunning’s Road as it lay empty after his conviction. The sight of his Jaguar XJ6 sitting unused on his driveway was particularly poignant. I think it got vandalised and eventually towed away.

Could you tell us some more about what Colin was like and perhaps give us a clue as to how he came to get in that mess?

Axiom142

 

[Axiom142]

That might have been the case with you, I don't doubt it.

But I can, without a doubt, say that I saw more dishonesty between individuals regarding private loans for the Bridge that were NEVER going to be repaid etc, more dishonesty with the Tax department and Social Security system, and more fraudulent credit applications than I have ever witnessed in a normal community.

I also think it's criminal to deny children an education and I saw plenty of that. I don't see that in any other aspect of society here in Australia.

Emma,

I can well believe this. Quite apart from the cases that I recounted, there are a lot more than I heard about. Being possessed of large flappy ears and spending quite a lot of time in the Ethics Office at St Hill, where all manner of indiscretions were often discussed (no soundproof cubicles), gave me quite a reality check on the real ethical level of certain Scientologists.

The self-employed ‘forgetting’ to pay Income Tax and VAT, fathers refusing to provide for children, loans reneged on, road traffic accidents run away from, dealing in drugs – you name it, it happened. I even heard of one guy who paid someone to kill someone else who had crossed him in a drugs deal. Fortunately, the contract wasn’t carried out and he was (eventually) allowed onto services. There seemed to be plenty of Scientologists who believed that anything could be justified provided it resulted in either money going to the CoS or them getting up the Bridge.

And to think that I used to get worried if I left splashes on the floor of the men’s room at work!

Axiom142

 

[Björkist]

Well, Björkist, looks like you have erred with L. ron BlubFlub and are quite right with Agent Pubesit.

See post #59 of this thread.

Anyways, it's nice to err and be right simultaneously. THX!

And to think that I used to get worried if I left splashes on the floor of the men’s room at work!

Axiom142

Damn, maybe you need to get some fiber in your diet?

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

Could you tell us some more about what Colin was like and perhaps give us a clue as to how he came to get in that mess?

Sorry, it is over 25 years since I have seen him. I was on the pro TRs course at the time. He just seemed a quiet pleasant fellow.

Thinking about it, contract engineers have been a dodgy lot (tax-wise) for decades. They have run their own one-man companies so they are employees. Then they don't pay themselves much by way of salary, but take dividends from the limited company. Then they can claim all sorts of expenses as well. This can be done legally, but it always was pretty dodgy. The (UK) government recently changed the rules to plug the loop hole but then some guys clubbed together to form almost fictitious groups so they were in "proper companies" with a dozen employees, still bending the rules almost to breaking point.

I am sorry to hear about his fall from grace.

Is it even possible to come back from PTS type B? :confused2:

 

[Mystic]

See post #59 of this thread.

Anyways, it's nice to err and be right simultaneously. THX!

Nada of value at 59 to see.

You hallucinate your "rightness" into self-inflicted effect?

 

[DCAnon]

I'm still working on this list, I just was busy today, lol. Also compiling a worldwide list of orgs and missions so we can finally figure out how many are out there. Woot woot.

 

[Dulloldfart]

I'm still working on this list, I just was busy today, lol. Also compiling a worldwide list of orgs and missions so we can finally figure out how many are out there. Woot woot.

There's a list of missions at www.scienowiki.org, and an entry for each org. It's a year or two out of date now, but might be useful for you.

Paul

 

[DCAnon]

There's a list of missions at www.scienowiki.org, and an entry for each org. It's a year or two out of date now, but might be useful for you.

Paul

Thank you!

 

[Mick Wenlock]

It's only a meaningful claim with statistical evidence. I know the original is PR and bullshit, but I for one became more ethical in my thinking after joining. It's hard to quantify and say I became 23% more ethical, or whatever.

But it may be true that, statistically speaking, people who embraced Scn and adopted Scn principles in their lives committed less crimes than the general population. I think it would be true to say that such Scios take less drugs than the general population, for instance.

Paul

Well, it is far more likely that what has changed is the type of crimes that get committed.

For example - you suddenly became more ethical in your thinking? You joined an organization and supported it when it was busy violating labor laws, immigration laws, lying under oath, harassing people, forging documents avoiding taxes. You have a strange definition of becoming more ethical. (and just to be sure I remain supportive here - I was doing exactly the same thing)

What is interesting Paul is that we both thought we were more ethical when we were in fact a part of a completely corrupt organization.

I am sure that you were aware of some of the stuff too.

In 1989 Scientologists in Sweden were going to jail and being declared bankrupt for their frauds,

So, for an organizationw ith the stated aim of " a world without crime" ANY criminal activity that it contributes to is significant.

 

[Axiom142]

Well, it is far more likely that what has changed is the type of crimes that get committed.

For example - you suddenly became more ethical in your thinking? You joined an organization and supported it when it was busy violating labor laws, immigration laws, lying under oath, harassing people, forging documents avoiding taxes. You have a strange definition of becoming more ethical. (and just to be sure I remain supportive here - I was doing exactly the same thing)

What is interesting Paul is that we both thought we were more ethical when we were in fact a part of a completely corrupt organization.

I am sure that you were aware of some of the stuff too.

In 1989 Scientologists in Sweden were going to jail and being declared bankrupt for their frauds,

So, for an organizationw ith the stated aim of " a world without crime" ANY criminal activity that it contributes to is significant.

Mick,

Whether or not I became more ethical is a debatable point, but I do believe that I have become more aware of my actions and the effect they might have on others. There are numerous principles and guidelines that I picked up during my time in the CoS that I find to be of benefit in helping me to live a better life.

While these things might not be unique to Scientology, I believe that in some respects, I changed for the better. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for everyone that I met during my time in Scientology.

Axiom142

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Mick,

Whether or not I became more ethical is a debatable point, but I do believe that I have become more aware of my actions and the effect they might have on others. There are numerous principles and guidelines that I picked up during my time in the CoS that I find to be of benefit in helping me to live a better life.

While these things might not be unique to Scientology, I believe that in some respects, I changed for the better. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for everyone that I met during my time in Scientology.

Axiom142

Well OK - and I am not trying to dog you on this but I think you are missing my point

If you were in Scientology and you supported it and tried to get others into it - you supported an organization that hurts people. Its a bit like people who buy "Hells Angels" supporters gear or who buy IRA memorabilia. How does this make you more "ethical"? Unless the definition of ethical involves being ignorant. You were part of an organization that conducts criminal acts.

The trouble with ascribing improvements in oneself is the lack of external controls. Most people change for the better as they grow older - it's called maturing. Most people make saner decisions and tend toward a more honest approach. Not everyone of course, but most. And that is pretty much regardless of religious affiliation.

But maybe there is something there - what, specifically, do you feel improved in your life that is solely ascribable to just Scientology? What unique thing in Hubbard's work?

 

[Axiom142]

Well OK - and I am not trying to dog you on this but I think you are missing my point

If you were in Scientology and you supported it and tried to get others into it - you supported an organization that hurts people. Its a bit like people who buy "Hells Angels" supporters gear or who buy IRA memorabilia. How does this make you more "ethical"? Unless the definition of ethical involves being ignorant

The trouble with ascribing improvements in oneself is the lack of external controls. Most people change for the better as they grow older - it's ca maturing. Most people make saner decisions and tend toward a more honest approach. Not everyone of course, but most. And that is pretty much regardless of religious affiliation.

But maybe there is something there - what, specifically, do you feel improved in your life that is solely ascribable to just Scientology? What unique thing in Hubbard's work?

I think I get your point well enough Mick. I just don’t necessarily agree with all of it.

Leaving aside the fact that I was an abject failure at getting others into Scientology, perhaps my heart wasn’t in it? Does it matter that I was part of a suppressive group (for want of a better term)? The fact is, I believed at that time that what I was doing was right and my intentions were to do good. If I were to start judging all my previous actions by what I know now, not what I knew then, I would probably go mad.

In any case, I definitely changed as a result of Scientology. Some good, some bad.

And, perhaps none of it was unique to Scientology, but so what? If I got something positive from it, it was because I was a Scientologist. If someone said “My life has changed because of the teachings of Jesus Christ”. Would you say, “Well that’s not valid because Buddism or some other practice offers something similar”?

I don’t call myself a Scientologist now, but I like think that my time in wasn’t all wasted.

Axiom142

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

I don’t call myself a Scientologist now, but I like think that my time in wasn’t all wasted.

A very reasonable sentiment, which I happen to share.