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Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: An Analysis of a Screwy Tech!

At first I wasn't sure whether to regard your post above on the misuse of Ethics in the S.O. and CofS as a reply to my earlier one which I directed at you. Or at least a partial reply. But on reflection and on reading it again I reckon it is meant as one and so I will write something on it.

First off - The insanity of applying these conditions in the way that has been the practice in the CofS is, as you describe, the stuff of madness. It's product is completely destructive of those on whom it is inflicted (unless they are lucky enough to escape or just let it wash over them without taking it seriously - which is what I always did while in the Orgs. In no way do I support or participate in any of that.

I have said repeatedly that the Ethics Formula need to be applied exclusively to the client as a first dynamic person. His membership or participation in a group has no bearing on it at all, except where conduct in such a group serves as an indicator of something unhandled lurking on the person's 1st Dynamic.

Others on that thread suggested that I had "assigned you a condition of Enemy". Nothing could be further from the truth. I did'nt, and I never have assigned anyone such a thing. To do so is completely contrary to the correct application and use of the formulas.

Nowhere do I consider or have I considered that you are n any way in a "Condition of Enemy" to the group here or to any individual in that group. But I do observe - and I said so - is that you are dramatizing an enemy valence towards yourself. It is the enemy within that is at issue here. And unfortunately it just is so that a person with such an enemy cannot see it. He/She is blind to it.

This is BTW a blindness that gets reinforced when one only audits a preclear on what he wants handled. I took this up with Alan on one occasion but he couldn't see it either. When you accustom a preclear to only being audited on what he wants handled you (a) have his bank as your C/S and you as auditor are in endless Q and A with it, and (b) you continually validate and reinforce the preclear's ego.

Note that with the word "bank" above I am not referring to the preclear's Mental Image Picture collection but to the deeper underlying bank consisting of the accumulated postulates he has made over the millennia regarding his concept of who he is, of the game he is playing, his role in it, his postulated limitations, and such-like. Hubbard never got into this at all to any degree of thoroughness.


Further to your post, I note the following attempt at generalizing a message to me in your normal indirect way:

Of course, some, who are into domination and the putting of others down or otherwise are into intellectualizing the wonders of the good of such screwy things without actually looking at what’s involved and the actual outcomes, think this assigning conditions of enemy all about is such clever stuff! But then, they too often live in cocoons, often in self created delusion, and are oblivious to true and actual outcomes. (And can’t figure why they have less than optimum lives or accomplishments, including poor health.)

RogerB

One of the observable aspects of someone with an internal enemy is that they cannot help but give continual clues as to the presence of that enemy. And here you do it again. But you can't see it, can you? You will once you have handled it. It's as obvious as a sore thumb.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Re: An Analysis of a Screwy Tech!

At first I wasn't sure whether to regard your post above on the misuse of Ethics in the S.O. and CofS as a reply to my earlier one which I directed at you. Or at least a partial reply. But on reflection and on reading it again I reckon it is meant as one and so I will write something on it.

First off - The insanity of applying these conditions in the way that has been the practice in the CofS is, as you describe, the stuff of madness. It's product is completely destructive of those on whom it is inflicted (unless they are lucky enough to escape or just let it wash over them without taking it seriously - which is what I always did while in the Orgs. In no way do I support or participate in any of that.

I have said repeatedly that the Ethics Formula need to be applied exclusively to the client as a first dynamic person. His membership or participation in a group has no bearing on it at all, except where conduct in such a group serves as an indicator of something unhandled lurking on the person's 1st Dynamic.

Others on that thread suggested that I had "assigned you a condition of Enemy". Nothing could be further from the truth. I did'nt, and I never have assigned anyone such a thing. To do so is completely contrary to the correct application and use of the formulas.

Nowhere do I consider or have I considered that you are n any way in a "Condition of Enemy" to the group here or to any individual in that group. But I do observe - and I said so - is that you are dramatizing an enemy valence towards yourself. It is the enemy within that is at issue here. And unfortunately it just is so that a person with such an enemy cannot see it. He/She is blind to it.

This is BTW a blindness that gets reinforced when one only audits a preclear on what he wants handled. I took this up with Alan on one occasion but he couldn't see it either. When you accustom a preclear to only being audited on what he wants handled you (a) have his bank as your C/S and you as auditor are in endless Q and A with it, and (b) you continually validate and reinforce the preclear's ego.

Note that with the word "bank" above I am not referring to the preclear's Mental Image Picture collection but to the deeper underlying bank consisting of the accumulated postulates he has made over the millennia regarding his concept of who he is, of the game he is playing, his role in it, his postulated limitations, and such-like. Hubbard never got into this at all to any degree of thoroughness.


Further to your post, I note the following attempt at generalizing a message to me in your normal indirect way:



One of the observable aspects of someone with an internal enemy is that they cannot help but give continual clues as to the presence of that enemy. And here you do it again. But you can't see it, can you? You will once you have handled it. It's as obvious as a sore thumb.



Why don't you all just take a deep breath and relax now, just let it all go and STFU about your formulas, conditions and other assorted 'tek'. None of it 'works' except to maintain or create further self righteous pomposity, ego massaging, hurt feelings or introversion.

None of you have anything to prove here, stop trying to handle things that either don't exist in the first place or need no handling, all you demonstrate is that not one of you has a 'handle' on life that is any further advanced than the rest of us has.

I'm sure you're all good people at heart ... but the use-by date for your tek is well and truly past, let it go now, let it die so you can start to regain your true selves minus all the pretense and effort of maintaining your imagined knowledge.

Allow all your imperfections to shine through ... they're probably very endearing.


:happydance:






 

Spirit

just another son of God
Re: An Analysis of a Screwy Tech!

It would be wonderful if you would take you own advice and STFU...
and let other people have discussions without your constant attacks and smartass remarks.

Why don't you all just take a deep breath and relax now, just let it all go and STFU about ....




So are yours.

Allow all your imperfections to shine through ... they're probably very endearing.


HappyDance1.gif
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Re: An Analysis of a Screwy Tech!

You should take you own advice and STFU and let other people have discussions without your constant attacks and smartass remarks.

Lol, yeah I probably should but the thought of ESMB becoming one huge (and endlessly significant) Indie tek picnic quite creeps me out but it will if real exes keep leaving and lurkers stay away in droves possibly due to not wanting to be on a board full of scientologists (look at the lurkers at any given time, usually 2-300).

I couldn't give a toss about Indies and their bickering and one-upmanship, but I do care (a lot) about those leaving the cofs/tek behind and decompressing and normalising again.

Use your tek, label me a low toned, out ethics SP and put me on ignore, that should work for you.





:coolwink:
 

Spirit

just another son of God
Trouble,
I doubt ESMB will ever become one huge (and endlessly significant) Indie tek picnic. I couldn't give a toss about the ones here that spent years cramming Scientology down other people's throats, then were cast out, so now they endlessly cram their (now opposite) views down people's throats here. I use my tek without enforcing my beliefs on anyone here or elsewhere, do not care to label you or anyone and choose to not use the ignore button, period.

Edit: This statement is not an attempt to start trouble:
I couldn't give a toss about the ones here that spent years cramming Scientology down other people's throats, then were cast out, so now they endlessly cram their (now opposite) views down people's throats here.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Trouble,
I doubt ESMB will ever become one huge (and endlessly significant) Indie tek picnic. I couldn't give a toss about the ones here that spent years cramming Scientology down other people's throats, then were cast out, so now they still cram their (now opposite) views down people's throat here. I use my tek without enforcing my beliefs on anyone here or elsewhere, do not care to label you or anyone and choose to not use the ignore button, period.

I don't know who you are referring to, some of our best and most effective critics were never in the cult, so your post (bolded bit above) certainly doesn't apply to them and I never got a single person into scientology (lol) and I wasn't cast out, so it doesn't apply to me either.

:no:

Hey, we can all reside here happily but I'll never accept the idea that anyone on this board has tek that is worth anything ... because they haven't, and it's potentially harmful to people that may come here to get out of the trap, that's hard enough without people (Indies) trying to confuse the issues.
 

Spirit

just another son of God
I don't know who you are referring to, some of our best and most effective critics were never in the cult, so your post (bolded bit above) certainly doesn't apply to them and I never got a single person into scientology (lol) and I wasn't cast out, so it doesn't apply to me either.
I was not referring to you or anyone in particular.

Hey, we can all reside here happily but I'll never accept the idea that anyone on this board has tek that is worth anything ... because they haven't, and it's potentially harmful to people that may come here to get out of the trap, that's hard enough without people (Indies) trying to confuse the issues.
Yes we can. It is much happier when all are allowed to express themselves without being told to "Shut the Fuck Up"!!
 
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Re: An Analysis of a Screwy Tech!

I was wrestling with whether I should put this post in another thread under the title of "Screwy, Destructive 'Tech'" . . . but this old thread is live, so here we go!
______________________________

Ethics Conditions

For those who were not in $cn prior to the rel ...

[Ant arbitrarliy deleted the rest. This responds to a number of recent posts]

RogerB


RogeB wrote:
"The fact, however, is that the TR’s train a person to deliver an auditing command/question. They do not train the person to receive the answer or other emanations of the PC—this aspect of the auditing cycle is absent from the training. "

Well, it appears, from Roger's account, to be absence of an understanding of what communication is. You do not need one more drill for that. You need some understanding of what I tend to call the philosophy of Scientology, Dianetics 55 material amongst other things. I'd refer you to the 1st Melbourne ACC, I do not have the reference handy, where Ron says "The Trs are a substitute for profesionalism". When I heard that, I stopped entirely worrying about Trs. I thought of the professional people (and experts in trades) who knew their onions. There was nothing lacking in their Trs (except for the occasional crook – poor trs was a sign to be wary).

Here is an extract from a 1st Melb ACC tape 6 November 1959:
"I never saw such an incurious lot of people. I'm not trying to restimulate your curiosity but I'm just saying, 'Well, I never!' You're not curious enough. You just aren't."
"Now, listen to me. Every case is a story. A very long story. A very compli­cated story with tremendous plot twists. And not one single case you will ever face is an easy case. Just get over thinking they are or that you'll someday find one or that someday by some necromancy I conduct in a laboratory someplace, I will push a button, all cases will become easy cases and you simply stand off and chant at them with a small facsimile of an E-Meter in your hand, and they will all go Clear. They aren't! They aren't! That isn't the way cases are."
"And if you're not interested or watching, and if you don't know what those cases are, you're going to miss! And miss! And miss! And miss! And then you're going to stick yourself on the track by blaming Ron!"
"Now, auditing is your ability to read and straighten out a pc. How do you suppose anybody could ever fix a radio set without ever looking in the radio set? That would be pretty rough, wouldn't it? Well, now we could get around this by training a lot of blind mice
[Ant comment: = well drilled robots :)] to run on a certain pattern and then never wiring a radio set up in any other way but that."

Of course it is pretty obvious this sort of got lost. But we are free. No Auntie Church looking over our shoulders, waiting to wrap our knuckles if we do anything that does not increase a stat which has little to do with a useful product.

Roger writes:
"Thus, the 'Objective Processes' are all those wonderful goodies we spent so many hours on 'book and bottle,' SCS (8C), CCHs, even clay table healing. "
Some years ago, I collected various (positive, but different) viewpoints and experiences with the Trs. Here is a list of them.

(From http://ivymag.org/titles.html) IVy Nr//page// year
Norstrand, Christine Objectives ( 1) 34 24 97
Roos, Otto J Objectives ( 2) 35 39 98
Stockdale, Russell Objectives ( 3) 35 41 98
Anderson, Judith Objectives ( 4) 35 42 98
Chen, Muriel Objectives ( 5) 35 42 98
Kemp, Raymond Objectives ( 6) 35 43 98
Anon Objectives ( 7) 35 43 98
Norstrand, Christine Objectives ( 8) 36 27 98
Crammer, Ted Objectives ( 9) 36 36 98
Gordon, Frank Objectives (10) 36 37 98
Gordon, Frank Objectives (11) 36 39 98
Norstrand, Christine Objectives (12) 36 40 98
Kemp, Raymond Objectives (13) 37 24 98
Norstrand, Christine Objectives (14) 37 35 98
Objectives (15-18) 38 26 98
Methven, Judith Objectives (17) 38 31 98
Horner, Jack Objectives (19) 49 07 00
Horner, Jack Objectives (20) 50 06 01
Graham, Peter Objectives (21) 50 24 01
Lone, Sigrun Objectives (22) 50 27 01
Blouch, Ron Objectives (23) 51 18 01
Fielder, Tom Objectives (23) 51 18 01
Horner, Jack Objectives (24) 52 11 01
Norstrand, Christine Objectives and creativity 34 24 97


How to format that list properly baffles me - You could go to http://ivymag.org/titles.html and scroll down to objectives in the middle column - there you will see it properly formatted.

Go to http://articles.ivymag.org/pdfs.html for the respective IVy in pdf form, click on it and go to the page. (But how many looking at this page are that interested in tech?)

Leon says, in his recent mail:
"This is BTW a blindness that gets reinforced when one only audits a preclear on what he wants handled. I took this up with Alan on one occasion but he couldn't see it either. When you accustom a preclear to only being audited on what he wants handled you (a) have his bank as your C/S and you as auditor are in endless Q and A with it, and (b) you continually validate and reinforce the preclear's ego."

I think I know where Leon got this idea from, Hubbard himself where there is the idea (I exaggerate, perhaps) that an individual is a poor helpless thing, steered by dark unconscious forces, and that therefore decisions he made are other determined, against his own best interests, and controlling him to death and destruction. About ten years ago I gave up struggling with audited NOTs. And worked with three other auditors, on things I or my pc wanted handled, In October 2007, for example, I ran "expecting bad things" (an example of the whole host of things ran over the years which I, the pc, wanted handled). The change in me over the last ten years or so is phenomenal. And you can take a look at the case I mentioned recently. The person wanted to get rid of getting strong terror and peoples faces turning into a wolves' heads. That was her goal. Naturally (to me) I audited towards it (I thought it a sensible, survival, goal - I would be doubtful of accepting a pc with the goal of being able to pick locks better). The boy friend insisted I use Dianetics. As the professional, I chose the processes to run (CCH 1-4), but the goal was hers.

It looks as though Leon suspected RogerB of covertness. My wonderment is as to why he did not ask RogerB privately directly (you can get any board members private address by going to their profile) instead of making the request on a public board, which even David Miscavige could look at, if he was interested.

Lastly I have read the other recent contributions to the list, by people who appear from various viewpoints to not really be willing for us who want to discuss Scientology Tech to do so, or want to warn people against using Scientology tech, or point out its futileness. I think I have understood all the viewpoints.

It makes me wonder if any one other than RogerB, Leon, CO2, Ted and FoTi and I are reading this thread and are interested in Scientology Tech. I have figured out a way of finding the weekly statistic for a thread, but it is a little time consuming and I have not done it for this thread. Is any one else interested and willing to let me know, by one of the many ways available to members (non members can write to [email protected] and I'll keep the comm confidential)?

All best wishes,

Ant
 
I hate being called Patron with Honors.

Is there any way I can turn it off? Its nearly as bad as being called Clear or class "Go to hell".

I suppose I'll have to live with it.

A grumpy Ant.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I hate being called Patron with Honors.

Is there any way I can turn it off? Its nearly as bad as being called Clear or class "Go to hell".

I suppose I'll have to live with it.

A grumpy Ant.


Don't be a grumpy Ant, Ant .... just go to 'settings' then 'edit profile' and finally 'custom user title' and type what you want directly into the little box ... (or try just leaving it blank?) and remember to hit 'save changes' at the very bottom of the page.


:)
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's fine to audit whatever the preclear wants handled - nothing wrong with that. It's when the word "only" is inserted into the sentence that I reckon one will miss out on handling major areas of charge.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
It's fine to audit whatever the preclear wants handled - nothing wrong with that. It's when the word "only" is inserted into the sentence that I reckon one will miss out on handling major areas of charge.

In a general sense, not restricted to only Scientology, isn't it true that most people are not AWARE of what their actual problems are and where their difficulties stem from? To only deal with what any person "wants handled" restricts this all to ONLY what they might be conscious of - which is surely NOT "all that might need to be addressed and handled" (with ANY set of methods or techniques).

Many have said that it is mainly the things of which we are NOT aware of in our selves that cause all of the trouble.

I have always thought that there might be a set of methods that took into account the most wide and general aspects of what limits and affects any human being. Of course, some of these things would be "below consciousness", and the person would never ever voice them as "wanted" (because he or she was not aware of them). It just seemed to me that Scientology's methods were more arbitrary than not, and did NOT actually find and locate the legitimate common factors to Man that would best benefit most if addressed and handled. I agree, Hubbard found some.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know who you are referring to, some of our best and most effective critics were never in the cult, so your post (bolded bit above) certainly doesn't apply to them and I never got a single person into scientology (lol) and I wasn't cast out, so it doesn't apply to me either.

:no:

Hey, we can all reside here happily but I'll never accept the idea that anyone on this board has tek that is worth anything ... because they haven't, and it's potentially harmful to people that may come here to get out of the trap, that's hard enough without people (Indies) trying to confuse the issues.

The one thing nearly all of us have in common is that we're ex-members of the Church of Scientology, and that's why we're here; because we have a shared experience that affected us in one way or another and which we want to talk about.

Beyond that, we're a disparate bunch with widely divergent views on a lot of things, including the Scientology tech itself, and that's inevitably going to be reflected in the discussions we have here.

A confession on my part; my experience of the CoS was doing a couple of courses at a smallish and comparatively insignificant org at the back end of beyond. I'd never heard of most or indeed any of the Scn bigwigs who get discussed here at great length (not even David Miscavige, though he was head honcho during my time there) and so I admit I find a lot of the discussion here about them almost insufferably tedious. Marty Rathbun - who the hell was he? Why should I even care what he does or doesn't do?

I'd have as much right to troll the f*** out of those discussions as you have to tell people to STFU in this one, but I don't because I understand those discussions have value for people here, just as tech discussions do in threads such as this one which take place in a section of the board set aside for them.

Live and let live.
 
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Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Just an addendum there; on a more general level I am glad about the fact that people who have participated in and even enabled some of the CofS's abuses and ripoffs are beginning to wake up and speak out about what they witnessed and were a part of; beyond that though, it's like following daily events inside the Vatican, of intense interest to a few people but very little to most of us.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
In a general sense, not restricted to only Scientology, isn't it true that most people are not AWARE of what their actual problems are and where their difficulties stem from? To only deal with what any person "wants handled" restricts this all to ONLY what they might be conscious of - which is surely NOT "all that might need to be addressed and handled" (with ANY set of methods or techniques).

Many have said that it is mainly the things of which we are NOT aware of in our selves that cause all of the trouble.

I have always thought that there might be a set of methods that took into account the most wide and general aspects of what limits and affects any human being. Of course, some of these things would be "below consciousness", and the person would never ever voice them as "wanted" (because he or she was not aware of them). It just seemed to me that Scientology's methods were more arbitrary than not, and did NOT actually find and locate the legitimate common factors to Man that would best benefit most if addressed and handled. I agree, Hubbard found some.



Yes. But more to the point - the guy will want to have handled all those things which impede the attainment of his present goal, and the more these things get handled the happier he will be. All well and good you might think, but what if he is following a non-life goal like acquiring heaps of money and smoking fat cigars? What then? All the auditing in the world will only serve to bolster the phoney beingness that underlies the said goal.

You need to study TROM to uncover more about non-life goals and how they work.
 
Just an addendum there; on a more general level I am glad about the fact that people who have participated in and even enabled some of the CofS's abuses and ripoffs are beginning to wake up and speak out about what they witnessed and were a part of; beyond that though, it's like following daily events inside the Vatican, of intense interest to a few people but very little to most of us.

Can this be interpreted as; you don't give a fuck about the damage that has been done and is being done as long as you can sip your coolaid?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yes. But more to the point - the guy will want to have handled all those things which impede the attainment of his present goal, and the more these things get handled the happier he will be. All well and good you might think, but what if he is following a non-life goal like acquiring heaps of money and smoking fat cigars? What then? All the auditing in the world will only serve to bolster the phoney beingness that underlies the said goal.

You need to study TROM to uncover more about non-life goals and how they work.

There are two ways you can go with this.

Path 1: Strict Buddhist Interpretation

All desire traps one on the wheel of life and death. As long as "you" have any concern to need, want or have any thing on any dynamic "to be happy", then you are stuck on it. The simple truth is that ANYTHING you think you need to be happy, any goal that must be achieved to make life "wonderful", are ALL attachments of some sort. In the end, due to the nature of eternal cycles, everything fades and dies. Anything on any dynamic that you must have, or achieve to "be happy" will sooner or later NOT be here. Plus, everything is always changing into something else anyway. All that you ever needed was always right there in you - already.

So, to me, the ONLY correct way to apply Scientology processes is in a way to AS-IS all goals on all dynamics. Not just the "bad ones" or "counter-survival" ones as it is done currently in and with Scientology, but ALL OF THEM (even the good ones - because the "good ones" are the ones that REALLY trap you).

It always cracked me up when I studied Scientology that it focused on the "counter-survival" goals, charge and incidents. The aim was always to erase the postulates and considerations that blocked you from succeeding and being happy. But, it is these goals themselves, to succeed and be happy, as a response to some way that reality must unfold for you (to be happy), that are the TRUE desires and attachments that are the most difficult to eradicate. Scientology NEVER takes THAT approach. Scientology actually pushes you DEEPER into the whole "game of life".

Hubbard instructs to erase the second postulate so that the first can be free to act and manifest. When it is the first postulate that must also be erased, to allow one to pull out of any need on any dynamic for anything. It is the dynamics themselves, as "urges to survive" or "urges to exist" (i.e. Raw Desire) as something on any dynamic that are the highest or deepest postulates that must be erased. Hubbard never gets into that. I wonder at times if he did so intentionally (which would be really nasty from a Buddhist perspective).

Failure to resolve these "urges" along the dynamics is what keeps any being stuck on the wheel of life and death. In a very real sense, Hubbard feeds them with his system, as it is set up.

Path 2: Common New Age Approach

It has become common to take deep spiritual truths from eastern philosophy, and water them down and use them in a way to assist in making people's lives happier, more successful and meaningful. Visualization is an example of methods taken from deeply involved Hindu and Tibetan Buddhist magic, that can be used to help achieve life goals.

The Law of Attraction is another principle that people use to improve their lives in some way.

Scientology does the same thing. Scientology is schizophrenic. On the one had Hubbard talks about the deeper spiritual goals, such as "eternal freedom". I don't think his version is anything like a Hindu version of "becoming one with God", but it involves a more long term view of things. On the other hand Hubbard does say in other places that the purpose of Scientology is NOT to take you out the top of the Tone Scale and OUT of the game entirely (which is what would be done with a full application of Buddhism), but to make it easier for you to achieve goals, win in life and be happy.

Obviously, many people want to be happy, and want to achieve various goals such as being successful. I see nothing wrong with using Scientology for that. Both the admin tech, such as conditions and the admin scale, and the auditing tech can be applied in that direction.

But, this version of Scientology is typical New Age application of eastern ideas towards materialistic ends.

That is fine.

But, that is NOT a path to spiritual expansion and development. And, that is not what all people want or are looking for, and that is fine.

In fact, to me, while Scientology can be used successfully along typical materialistic New Age lines, it is a total failure as a path to "spiritual enhancement".

Different people need and want different things. For any person who truly grasps the aims of Buddhism, they have little or nothing to do with the aims of Scientology. That is just a fact. How you choose to judge or value that is something else, and is up to you.

When I saw Marty Rathbun call Scientology "technological Buddhism", I nearly fell of of my chair in laughter. He can be so stupid at times.

Hubbard is very down on "self-abnegation" (ref: KSW). The expansion of the dynamics in Scientology is actually the ego's achieving aims along these eight compartments called the "dynamics". It is the ego's "urge to survive" along these eight areas.

Buddhism would respect "self-abnegation":

The setting aside of self-interest for the sake of others or for a belief or principle.
 
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Gib

Crusader
It's fine to audit whatever the preclear wants handled - nothing wrong with that. It's when the word "only" is inserted into the sentence that I reckon one will miss out on handling major areas of charge.

that's pure evaluation and putting you the auditor, therapist, on a dependency and plateau.

The same with hubbards grand goals for the PC, he put himself on a pedestal, as the grand master who knew it all. :nazi:
 
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