LongTimeGone
Silver Meritorious Patron
yah, several, many, ... oh omg now you've got me LISTING! whatever shall we do!!
Oh well, there you go.
Take an Aspirin and call me in the morning.
D.
Corrections and Advances in More Workable Tech
- Thread starter RogerB
- Start date
Oh well, there you go.
Take an Aspirin and call me in the morning.
D.
degraded being
Sponsor
It's very simple.
Ron was a genius.
He was flawed, but a genius nonetheless.
Ron knew that we have to get out of the terrible trap we are in.
Some of us didn't even know were in it until Ron told us. God we're dumb!
Ron came up with some technology. It is wonderful.
But Duh!!! The genius Ron made some mistakes.
Some people have come up with corrections to Ron's tech.
Boy are we lucky to have them here to make sure our coolaid is made to their new improved recipe.
Now we can get out.
Sigh of relief!
We can get out!
If you don't get this....like,.. Duh!
Ron was a genius.
He was flawed, but a genius nonetheless.
Ron knew that we have to get out of the terrible trap we are in.
Some of us didn't even know were in it until Ron told us. God we're dumb!
Ron came up with some technology. It is wonderful.
But Duh!!! The genius Ron made some mistakes.
Some people have come up with corrections to Ron's tech.
Boy are we lucky to have them here to make sure our coolaid is made to their new improved recipe.
Now we can get out.
Sigh of relief!
We can get out!
If you don't get this....like,.. Duh!
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
I think we just have different viewpoints at work here.
The "average person" goes through life, functions like a normal human, has his ups and downs, and doesn't need to be forcibly locked up or medicated as he is no particular danger to others around him. He might indulge in a bit of self-help of one kind or another, but doesn't go overboard on it.
Then there's the kind of person who wants to "improve" himself to a marked extent, mentally and spiritually, whether by decades of devotion in a temple, studying and practising no end of this and that, or even immersing himself in Scn or similar practices.
And there are other types, including those inmates of institutions who *are* locked up for the good of others.
I can imagine that the first type looks on the second type as weird, in that they seem to be missing the point, and similarly the second type looks on the first as missing the point. I certainly read such comments here on ESMB, as well as having thoughts of my own that I don't necessarily voice, although I may.
Paul
The "average person" goes through life, functions like a normal human, has his ups and downs, and doesn't need to be forcibly locked up or medicated as he is no particular danger to others around him. He might indulge in a bit of self-help of one kind or another, but doesn't go overboard on it.
Then there's the kind of person who wants to "improve" himself to a marked extent, mentally and spiritually, whether by decades of devotion in a temple, studying and practising no end of this and that, or even immersing himself in Scn or similar practices.
And there are other types, including those inmates of institutions who *are* locked up for the good of others.
I can imagine that the first type looks on the second type as weird, in that they seem to be missing the point, and similarly the second type looks on the first as missing the point. I certainly read such comments here on ESMB, as well as having thoughts of my own that I don't necessarily voice, although I may.
Paul
Veda
Sponsor
In 1937 a book titled, 'The Middle Pillar' http://weiserantiquarian.com/catalogfiftynine/36769.jpg by Israel Regardie was published.
Wrote Regardie:
"[Psycho-therapeutic] Analysis is the logical precursor of spiritual attainment and Magical experiment... Not until the mind and the emotional system have been cleansed and unified by the cathartic process... can the full spiritual benefits of magical work be reflected into the mind of man.
"...We should remember the parables of the archaic philosophical religions whose fundamental tenet was that within man was a spirit, a dynamic center of consciousness which, because of its contact and association with matter, had been plunged into a profound sleep, a kind of somnambulism...
"By endeavoring to extend the horizon of consciousness, to enlarge the field of awareness so as to embrace what previously was unconscious, is obviously a logical method. To become aware of all our actions, our thoughts and emotions and unsuspected motives, to regard them in their true light as actually they are and not as we would like them to be or as we would wish an onlooker to perceive them. It requires, to take this step, an extraordinary degree of honesty and courage... The more of this suppressed and forgotten material stored in this at one time unknown or dormant side of our nature that can be raised to the clear light of day, by exactly so much do we awake from the inert stupor into which we have in the past been plunged."
The 'Tree of Life': http://www.cosmiclight.com/oflightandlife/images/treelife.jpg
Wrote Regardie:
"[Psycho-therapeutic] Analysis is the logical precursor of spiritual attainment and Magical experiment... Not until the mind and the emotional system have been cleansed and unified by the cathartic process... can the full spiritual benefits of magical work be reflected into the mind of man.
"...We should remember the parables of the archaic philosophical religions whose fundamental tenet was that within man was a spirit, a dynamic center of consciousness which, because of its contact and association with matter, had been plunged into a profound sleep, a kind of somnambulism...
"By endeavoring to extend the horizon of consciousness, to enlarge the field of awareness so as to embrace what previously was unconscious, is obviously a logical method. To become aware of all our actions, our thoughts and emotions and unsuspected motives, to regard them in their true light as actually they are and not as we would like them to be or as we would wish an onlooker to perceive them. It requires, to take this step, an extraordinary degree of honesty and courage... The more of this suppressed and forgotten material stored in this at one time unknown or dormant side of our nature that can be raised to the clear light of day, by exactly so much do we awake from the inert stupor into which we have in the past been plunged."
The 'Tree of Life': http://www.cosmiclight.com/oflightandlife/images/treelife.jpg
RogerB
Crusader
The answer, olska, is any who wish to honestly investigate and find answers.
And since you are obviously no longer interested since your departure from Scn, this does not apply to you.
And you thus neither require nor deserve any further explanation.
You may be as you choose.
RogerB
Apparently the "tech" I've been referencing was written by Alan Walters, not Ron; otherwise, I generally tend to agree with you -- particularly with the bolded line. And I personally LIKE your blunt and succinct way of making your point.
HOWEVER,
It was recently pointed out to me that my own tendency toward blunt statements tinged with ridicule comes across as "disruptive, rude, unproductive negative comments on others' writing" meant to stir up flames rather than sincere contribution to discussion.
I hope my genuine concerns won't be dismissed because of something as insignificant as my writing style, because I have concerns about efforts of the "independent field" to forward, promote, distribute, and/or sell the idea that unless the people of the world avail themselves of this “tech” by hooking up with a “processor” trained in this “tech,” they are doomed to be "trapped" and troubled by the long list of “manifestations” that are wrong with them.
For example, early in the article the author states (bold is my emphasis):
Did the author really mean "everybody," as in all human beings? Or only "everybody" within a limited group of individuals defined and known to the "insiders" but not the rest of us?
If it's "everybody" in the full sense of the word, then we're all in trouble, as the author goes on to tell us the consequences of our ignorance:
That sinister list of negative attributes is laid out in the first of 14 "vital areas" that the "processor" is to address ... we're just getting started!
Did you mean that I am "obviously no longer interested" in scientology? in which case, you are incorrect as I am interested in analyzing and deconstructing it so as to help people (those who wish to do so) untangle themselves from it, or
that I am "obviously no longer interested" in honestly investigating and finding answers? in which case you would be wrong, as my interest in your lengthy post of the "tech" written by Alan Walters is part of an honest investigation aimed at finding the answers to how it happened (and still could happen), that people seeking help or answers to the normal and usual problems of life, can be drawn into something so insidious and destructive to their mental, emotional, social, and spiritual life as "scientology" and some of its offshoots.
You can believe whatever you like, play at whatever games you like, discuss the subject or not; but, in light of the devastating effect "scientology" has had on the lives of many people, I think it is foolish of you to dismiss the concerns I and others have by implying that I am "dishonest" and telling me that I "neither require nor deserve" any answers.
I think what you say is right as far as it goes, but there is an important bit missing:
Someone in your first category (the "average") hits a rough spot in life and finds themself feeling lost, or depressed, or they need help sorting out a family or career relationship, or they're looking to overcome what they know is a self-destructive habit or addiction.
In this state, they are vulnerable to the scientologist (or some other kind of practitioner with their own agenda) who "finds their RUIN," and then draws the person into an elaborate, long, arduous, and sometimes VERY COSTLY (and not just financially costly) program of "processing" to "handle" all the many other things beneath the surface of the original "ruin" that are WRONG with this person -- according to the "processor" and the theories of the "tech" this processor uses.
I have no beef at all with anyone in your second category as long as they do not impose their beliefs and practices on the rest of us "for our own good."
For the unfortunate souls in your third category, some promising advances have been made in recent decades with drugs for treating serious mental illness. Psyche drugs are not a panacea, but I think treating people with drugs is often preferable to no treatment at all -- and, oddly, some of the people I know who are being so treated agree.
Your first category covers the majority of the human population and a broad, broad range of life situations and intensities of help-seeking. The more serious or confusing their problem, the more responsible they are for taking the initiative to do something about their situation, the more vulnerable they are to being exploited.
I think MOST of the people who were drawn into scientology and whose lives were devastated by that involvement were part of this group; they were not part of your second group.
Vinaire
Sponsor
FoTi
Crusader
Since you say you are not a trained or experienced auditor in the first quote, what training or processing are you referring to here in the second quote?
Why do you need or want to know?
Would you also like to know my full name, history of name changes, DOB, SocSec number, name of the org where I was on staff, where I live now, who I was married to and when? Would you like me to fill out a life history form for you?
Give me a really good reason why I should share with you the personal details of my life, and MAYBE i will -- otherwise, please respect my privacy as I respect yours.
FoTi
Crusader
Quote:
Originally Posted by olska
Why do you need or want to know?
Because you said that you had no auditor training or experience and then you say you did training and processing.
Would you also like to know my full name, history of name changes, DOB, SocSec number, name of the org where I was on staff, where I live now, who I was married to and when? Would you like me to fill out a life history form for you?
Nope. Have no interest in your personal life. Just trying to make some sense out of what you posted in this thread.
Give me a really good reason why I should share with you the personal details of my life, and MAYBE i will -- otherwise, please respect my privacy as I respect yours.
My, my....touchy aren't we?
OK -- I did NOT say that I had "NO auditor training or experience" -- what I wrote in answer to Leon's question was that I am not (do not consider myself) a "trained and experienced auditor."
In fact, I did a number of scientology "services" that I don't care to delineate here just to satisfy your curiosity, and one amongst those was the HQS course, as part of which I audited my twin for maybe 6 hours (too long ago to remember) before we reached the "EP" required by the checksheet.
... So does that mean I am now qualified to call myself a "trained and experienced auditor?" Didn't think so, which is one reason I don't represent myself as such.
You can view it however you wish, but if you think such a remark is going to provoke me into publishing on the internet details about myself that I prefer to keep private, you are mistaken.
Weird, as meaning what's in the incident that seems somewhat frozen for them? Some of it is so volatile I sometimes have been nauseous. Sometimes what I see I cannot easily be put into words. It is my personal feeling that a lot of stuff I uncover in myself is weird. Residue of space opera control operations...and whatever. Galactic deformities and skin diseasesthat were rampant at times...left over imagery in self and others. These things stick my attention when I pick up really vivid mental image pictures from other people. Images of things not easy to experience or have.Weird oddities, especially physical ones where the imagery is directly overlaying a person's current physical mockup.
But you are exactly right. If I was a journalist doing a review to send back to an off planet rag, the stigma and the word 'weird' would ABSOLUTELY be my own consideration. I do not 'handle' or address a live being with any attitude of shock or disdain to confront. At least I would like to think I don't.
If some happenstances weren't so unimaginably horrible we would not push against them and resist so hard that they now sit on ridges we have created. Thats why they're visible.
I must admit, talking from my own perspective most of the weird feeling stuff and hard to look at stuff by my own standards is outside the realm of living as a human on this planet. Another scope of things entirely.
Today I was handling some masses that had to do with between lives implant goals. Not a direction I have ever had occasion to put my attention in. Did not believe in the phenomena.It is definitely not true for everyone.
We are all entitled to our opinions ...
Opinions which are just kind of serfacs if they don't lead anywhere, aren't they?
Thank you for the explanations. It's interesting to share your views. I'm not the same today as when I asked the question so can't follow up with a more specific ack - don't know anymore to what aim I wanted to know.
The structures which seem weird to me most often are structures of functions. That is, not single instances of manifestations, but groups along a function which leads to similar manifestations. The manifestations are then not weird, the function or group of functions are. For example, sticking to one and calling that self. Or getting stuck to a body as a self and by that surrendering "yourself" to domination like by MEST - to have to's, like eating, have shelter and paying taxes. "We" could for example come together and do something like playing music without that, don't we? Weird that we have chosen or fallen to these domination games.
If I remember right, you Hatshepsut have recently quoted from the gospel of Thomas (I'm not a regular reader and poster here, just sometimes pop in for some hours and fill my nose). I very much like this, it's so different to the ideals and basics by LRH - no survival as an embracing command (how weird!) and ideals which are completely off the "krc", the exchange of VFPs (valuable final products) and the eternal circling in conditions from 3rd party to power change and such things. I guess that such limitations by LRH are making his gifts (or should I say his efforts) a mixed blessing - good for advancing, but also sticking to advancing on "lower levels" forever, especially if they are used also to hammer out of existence every other tech. (Similarities with what Scientology has become are inevitable.) The Thomas gospel is, for me, a counterpart to the tech which holds open hope in times when the way out seems to be the way through, forever.
This is not written to become fodder for those who damn Scientology because they want eternal normality (stay in the norms which they consider to be everything), but if it does become, well, enjoy the meal!
degraded being
Sponsor
Yes I get what your are saying and it was very obvious to me in your posts on the last couple of pages of this thread that you were taking care to write in a way that would get responses to questions and points you were making, without being seen as simply inflammatory. There was nothing amiss in those posts about style.
Getting hit on the upside of the head by Rog, ....and...one or two others? for that was nothing to do with you, but was their mis-reading or being overly defensive about being questioned.
I have the same concern about the coolaid being on-sold to others.
I do not get into lengthy discussions about it because with some coolaid sellers it would be a waste of time. I hope the coolaid buyers read these boards.
In some ways I do not mind cool aid sellers and buyers doing their own thing. When I see people elevating themselves above others with their amazing insights and knowledge of what is best for everyone, I just take a pot shot at that. That elevation was what Ron did, and it looks quaintly stupid when others do the same and say they found out the flaws in Ron's brainwashing, so people would do well to buy theirs.
Vinaire
Sponsor
I remember Alan Walters getting upset with me when I first started on this board because I questioned him on The Factors of Hubbard. He just "knew" the FACTORS and thought they were perfect and so easy to understand that I was stupid to question them.
Today I finally understand them as being flawed. I finally resolved the inconsistency that I intuitively felt and asked Alan for his help to resolve it.
Now Knowledgism carries the same basic flaw that is built into the Factors. Please see
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=501327&postcount=164
.
Today I finally understand them as being flawed. I finally resolved the inconsistency that I intuitively felt and asked Alan for his help to resolve it.
Now Knowledgism carries the same basic flaw that is built into the Factors. Please see
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=501327&postcount=164
.
Thanks for your feedback!
The bolded sentence expresses my own hope, also, as:
If something I write as part of these discussions sparks a reader to look more closely at what is being discussed, and more thoroughly evaluate whether what is proferred truly serves that reader's best interests, the effort is worthwhile.
I do not now, and never have expected to cause anyone here to "change their mind" about beliefs they hold dear or feel called to defend.
Yip yip yeah, Ray!
mate
Patron Meritorious
Hi Vinnair.
I think you will find that it is more an inadequacy of of language rather than an inconsistency in the statement of the first factor.
By this I mean that it conforms with the experiential understanding that one has of the the sequence of "start change stop" to project it to an intellectual understanding to the absolute beginning of everything, whereas itis beyond any language created by man.
I personally have little time for Hubbard's Factors and Axioms, or who ever he got them from, as they are simply an intellectual exercise. True understanding is an experiential exercise.
It is assumed by most, if not all, that time as we observe it, "must" have had a beginning. I disagree with this assumption, and I do not accept that it is self-evident. To me time is another, that is a fourth, dimension, and like the other three, it has neither beginning nor end. We observe it as the "passage of time" because we are not able to view the fourth dimension as we do the other three.
David.
I think you will find that it is more an inadequacy of of language rather than an inconsistency in the statement of the first factor.
By this I mean that it conforms with the experiential understanding that one has of the the sequence of "start change stop" to project it to an intellectual understanding to the absolute beginning of everything, whereas itis beyond any language created by man.
I personally have little time for Hubbard's Factors and Axioms, or who ever he got them from, as they are simply an intellectual exercise. True understanding is an experiential exercise.
It is assumed by most, if not all, that time as we observe it, "must" have had a beginning. I disagree with this assumption, and I do not accept that it is self-evident. To me time is another, that is a fourth, dimension, and like the other three, it has neither beginning nor end. We observe it as the "passage of time" because we are not able to view the fourth dimension as we do the other three.
David.
Similar threads
