CoS Srikes Back! Well, Sort Of....

TG1

Angelic Poster
Earlier, Dulloldfart invited me to improve upon the cult's latest really crappy press release. I couldn't spare the time to do so, but mostly I couldn't imagine any reward in doing so.

Mostly, what I find appalling about such "public relations" efforts the cult indulges in of late is that the scribbler(s) of such releases are so clueless they don't realize their little behavior rules have absolutely zero relevance or enforceability outside the walls of the physical and mental prison which is the Church of Scientology, e.g.:

* You can't call yourself a Scientologist.
* You can't enter a public building.
* You can't talk to your family members -- or only minimally. (Meaning at Christmas, but not Thanksgiving? On Valentine's, but not St. Patrick's Day?)
* We won't allow your family members to have any contact with you.

The list goes on, but I won't.

When ravings like this are committed to print and released for broad public consumption, the world sees the cult for the club of idiots it is.

And here's the truly offensive part of it, for me: The cult doesn't even have the cultural self-awareness to appreciate that what they've just published sounds like the ravings of a cult. They are now so stupid I am having a hard time believing they've gotten that stupid.

How do you argue or debate or discuss these issues with people who are so unaware!?

Pffffttttt!

TG1
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
First step of the Emergency formula is promote. Since they spend half their statement (much more than usual) gushing, this fiasco over Debbie must have hit them pretty hard.

This is a new one: defrocked apostates. Since defrock means "1. To strip of priestly privileges and functions" and apostate is "a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc," does that mean that ordinary run-of-the-mill apostates are still frocked?

Paul
Oh yeah, definately still 'frocked' over too (you crack me up, nice catch Paul)

BTW, just a curious-cat question, what do these frocks look like? Will they shrink in the wash? Does the dye run?

Erm, 'priestly privilages'? Like, oh my, "We take away your right to fuck people over in the name of the Blubber, The gun, and the holy toast" Uck.

:coolwink:
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't find it funny at all. How is that funny? You think it's funny to liken a woman to somebody's main hooker? Why?

This woman has been tortured FFS. Show some respect.

Why because she was tortured? What if PolPot or Stalin endured brutal torture, should I show respect for them? Enduring torture does not automatically mean some should be shown respect, empathy or compassion yes, but not respect. People who endure torture to protect others or for a just cause earn tremendous respect, but I don't see that as the case with Cook.

Whether funny or and irrelevant of what Debbie endured as Int she did play a very BIG role in bringing countless people to Flag where they were ruined financially to pay for brainwashing and lining the pockets of the IAS, she was top dog at flag as Lisa McPherson DIED due to torture and neglect then contributed to the cover up, she herself in her letter to the cult last month boldly states she helped cover up and protect their biggest crimes, etc... There is even a famous story of how after she helped extort a million $ dono out of Italian grandmother Maria Pia Gardinia she went out and bought herself a shiny, new fancy car with her $40,000 cut of the proceeds.

Cook is no saint. She has some seriously dirty hands and her awful treatment at INT for 7 weeks doesn't erase that. Hell she was there for 7 WEEKS there are quite a few who have been in the whole for well over 7 YEARS!! If she was so appalled at her treatment in the hole, the mind boggles at why she remained totally silent about it for 4 years as she knew it continued. When she did finally speak up it wasn't to try and be a voice for those still being brutalized in the hole but because she's upset the cult isn't following some BS LRH policies?!??? Really?? WTF? The mind boggles at her priorities.

The hole was only mentioned because she had to defend herself, and she doesn't seem much concerned that others are still trapped there - her concern is her own treatment and upset at LRH policy not being followed. I so wish she would hold a press conference listing all the 100 men and women she saw held there with her own eyes and detail the conditions and treatment.

So was she a hooker for the cult? Maybe, because she certainly fucked enough public Scios out of their last dime and hell she commanded a whole crew whose life work was doing only that.

Mike Rinder commented on Marty's blog that it was Debbie who came into the hole one night and commanded Mike and others to jump into the freezing waters of the pond at Int. When she arrived at Int she was there as DM's golden girl and as such she tortured others as his behest. Only ironic she was soon going to be trapped in there herself. So what about those Debbie tortured?

However, I think he rough analogy works mainly because that's how DM treats people. Debbie and other SO members are nothing but whores to him. He believes they can be bought, sold and intimidated with violence or his power into doing anything he commands - including brutalizing and abusing others. Unfortunately DM runs Scientology with the ethics of a ghetto pimp. The sadistic, violent, inhumane mentality of a pimp is a pretty close match to Miscavige.
 
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Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
tormented

i got a buddy spent 3 1/2 years in the hanoi hilton and he was tortured

I'm sorry to hear that, Commander. And I am certain your friend was subjected to hellish conditions. But "anguish of body or mind" is evident in her testimony even in the present day - she is still grief-stricken over what occurred. And I don't think anyone should quantify pain and suffering willfully inflicted on another by hashing over what qualifies as "enough" to be torturous to endure.

There are countless horrible things that can happen. Just because one person's horrible thing differs from another person's doesn't make it less of a nightmare.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Friendly Feedback

Bunny Skull,

While we're on the subject of pimps, hos and torture, I want to share something I've been suppressing for a long time.

Your posts of late have really been good -- more so (to my ear) that ever before. I don't always agree with everything you say, but sometimes I do. And your posts these last few months have always been worth the read.

However, in the spirit of feedback among, well, complete strangers who just happen to hang out at the same message board, I TOTALLY DESPISE YOUR AVATAR. That image has offended me from the first time I saw it and has made it hard for me to take you seriously.

Now that you've received this friendly feedback, I have no doubt you will immediately replace that image with another one that expresses perhaps even better your inner rebel, yet doesn't leave half of your readers going WTF!

Or not, as is your right.

TG1
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
How about you write one and show us how it is done, then? What would you suggest?

(My position is that there is no press release they could write that would help, short of changing tack completely after 60 years.)

Paul

I'll give it a go.

"The cos experienced a tough setback last week in a Texas courtroom. Retired top executive, Debbie Cook, violated a leaving staff covenent by conducting a smear campaign against the cob, David Miscavage. We have welcomed Debbie's criticism and hope she'll be able to help us improve the quality of our church as we move forward. Scientology is about resolving differences and we are confident that Debbie will join us in our quest for a better world. "

LOL THAT ain't gonna happen.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm sorry to hear that, Commander. And I am certain your friend was subjected to hellish conditions. But "anguish of body or mind" is evident in her testimony even in the present day - she is still grief-stricken over what occurred. And I don't think anyone should quantify pain and suffering willfully inflicted on another by hashing over what qualifies as "enough" to be torturous to endure.

There are countless horrible things that can happen. Just because one person's horrible thing differs from another person's doesn't make it less of a nightmare.

True, but it is a good point. The word torture is strong and most people associate
it with the obscene treatment POWs have endured - and though what Cook and others endured is horrible it is not on the same level as POWs in Vietnam, Russia, Germany, etc... I do think mental torture/torment is what Cook endured, the physical end of it was minor in comparison.

The other end of it was Debbie did make choices that led to INT and the hole. She saw the criminal conduct and abusive practices at Flag - they did horrible things to public and SO members alike. Did she really think an organization with such inhuman policies and behavior, which she oversaw at flag for 20 years, was going to treat her with kid gloves when displeased with her?

I won't ever say Cook deserved what was done to her in the hole. By the same token the people in the hole didn't deserve her abuse, nor did the countless people at flag. However, there were lots of red flags Cook observed over the years she chose to ignore or accept -there was a long history that led to the hole at int. One doesn't get called to Int as a golden girl by Miscavige due to their compassion and fair treatment of others.

I still can't fathom if Cook was so outraged and upset by her treatment in the hole how she could sleep at night knowing fellow SO was still sleeping on the floor, infested with ants, in baking temp wondering if someone would burst in at 3 am to frog march them for a dunk into a pond full of scum. Nor how she can still encourage others to believe in Scientology when that is what created this situation and for every "win" she gloats about I am certain almost every person she knows heavily involved in Scientology ended up hurt, victimized, financially ruined, etc..
 

Illegal Alien

Patron with Honors
All of this expansion is date coincident with the removal of Ms. Cook and a few
other select individuals that make up their posse of apostates—a fact of which they are well aware and extremely bitter. Ms. Cook failed to tell the actual story:

:roflmao::roflmao::lol::lol::laugh::laugh::hysterical::hysterical:
 

xseaorguk

Patron Meritorious
well, any Scientologist who had not heard of Debbie Cook and the court case until now, now does:yes:
I'm suprised the "ignore tech" was not used in this case as in many others.

Oh yes, and the wonderful EMPTY Ideal Ogres, oh dear...
$cientology at least used to pretend it was "helping" people and not boast about new buildings.
What happened to "lets Clear the planet" and all that rubbish we sent thru back 30 years ago?
Don' hear much about it now do ya?!!
 
Debbie has to know that DA letter is so on policy it could have been written by Hubbard himself. She will have to figure out how to put that together with
basing her attacks on the tiny tyrant being "off policy".

I don't think Debbie has expressed any outrage of abuse at all.
She has only expressed a desire to fix up the malfunctioning of
scientology brought about by "off policy" practices, a subtle difference which is important to a scientologist who doesn't want to think about all the nasty things she saw (and did) for L. Ron Hubbard....NOT DM.
 
I'm sorry to hear that, Commander. And I am certain your friend was subjected to hellish conditions. But "anguish of body or mind" is evident in her testimony even in the present day - she is still grief-stricken over what occurred. And I don't think anyone should quantify pain and suffering willfully inflicted on another by hashing over what qualifies as "enough" to be torturous to endure.

There are countless horrible things that can happen. Just because one person's horrible thing differs from another person's doesn't make it less of a nightmare.

yes

torment is tortuous to endure
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...

COS STATEMENT ON DEBBIE COOK BAUMGARTEN



The real story is the explosive worldwide growth of the
Church of Scientology. Since 2010, in California alone, the Church has opened
4 new Ideal Churches of Scientology: in Hollywood; Pasadena; Inglewood; and,
just 2 weeks ago, inSacramento. In the past 5 years, the Church has additionally
opened 25 new Ideal Churches of Scientology in cities as diverse as London, Rome,
Brussels, Moscow, Melbourne, Quebec, Hamburg and all over the United States. In 2012,
here are an additional 15 new Churches of Scientology scheduled for Grand Opening,
including our spiritual mecca in Florida—a 375-thousand square foot facility to minister
to Scientologists from all over the world.Additionally, in Los Angeles, in 2009 the Church
established the largest and most state-of-the-art all-digital publishing house
on Earth, dedicated to the production of our Founder’s scriptures. Since then, the facility
has produced and disseminated over 97 million books and lectures (on compact disc) world
over. In 2010 the Church further established the largest printing and manufacturing plant
in the U.S. solely dedicated to the production of humanitarian programs and materials.

Debbie Cook the apostate has no idea of all our amazing buildings because during
the time we started expanding she was imprisoned in a double-wide trailer and we
can evidence that she never went outside of that because we have surveillance footage
that clearly prove she lived and slept under a small desk and the doors and windows
were secured with iron bars and security guards that would not let her out. And if
she had managed to escape, we had secondary and tertiary surveillance cameras,
guards in vehicles, motion detectors and inward-facing spikes on an escape proof
gate. In the ridiculous scenario that she made it past our fortifications, we could and
would have easily re-captured her with a manhunt. So, the real question is this--Did
Debbie Cook have any personal knowledge or reality on our new buildings? And the
answer to that is a resounding "No!" Therefore, Ms. Cook is hardly in a position to
judge our success or the happiness of our parishioners. And don't even bother trying
to assert those absurd claims about ice water, garbage cans, slapping and group
torture. We have many success stories that Debbie wrote during that period including
the sample attached where Debbie heartfully thanks RTC and David Miscavige personally
for not breaking her fingers. We are prepared to bring this kind of compelling
evidence to court if Debbie Cook does not abandon her lawsuit against us and forces
us to go to court again. ML, Karen Pouw
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
True, but it is a good point. The word torture is strong and most people associate it with the obscene treatment POWs have endured - and though what Cook and others endured is horrible it is not on the same level as POWs in Vietnam, Russia, Germany, etc... I do think mental torture/torment is what Cook endured, the physical end of it was minor in comparison.

Yes, I agree that all things considered, the physical abuse she described was not extreme. Her torture was largely psychological in nature.

The other end of it was Debbie did make choices that led to INT and the hole. She saw the criminal conduct and abusive practices at Flag - they did horrible things to public and SO members alike. Did she really think an organization with such inhuman policies and behavior, which she oversaw at flag for 20 years, was going to treat her with kid gloves when displeased with her?

She made choices that led her there after she was thoroughly indoctrinated in the Scientology mindset. Her decisions were all based on and around Scientology. She started her training in her early teens, was a kid when she signed her billion year contract. All she knew was Scientology. So her decisions were made based on her belief that Scientology was the only hope of man. It’s right out of Lifton’s 8 Criteria for Mind Control. Point 5: Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Incredibly easy to justify your actions in light of such a ‘truth”.

I won't ever say Cook deserved what was done to her in the hole. By the same token the people in the hole didn't deserve her abuse, nor did the countless people at flag. However, there were lots of red flags Cook observed over the years she chose to ignore or accept -there was a long history that led to the hole at int. One doesn't get called to Int as a golden girl by Miscavige due to their compassion and fair treatment of others.

Being Captain FSO meant making money, first and foremost, so I am sure Debbie did or condoned a lot of messed up things to make the almighty target. I'm sure she degraded and abused her share of people. I'm also sure she was degraded and abused over the years. It was my experience that occasional abuse and degradation are part and parcel of life on staff. I can’t count the times I was reamed out by a senior and then bitched out for responding and told to “get my TRs in” or go to ethics. Enough “bullbait” whether on course or on post, and you start to be numb to it. I am in no way saying that is a good thing. I’m just saying that it happens.

I still can't fathom if Cook was so outraged and upset by her treatment in the hole how she could sleep at night knowing fellow SO was still sleeping on the floor, infested with ants, in baking temp wondering if someone would burst in at 3 am to frog march them for a dunk into a pond full of scum. Nor how she can still encourage others to believe in Scientology when that is what created this situation and for every "win" she gloats about I am certain almost every person she knows heavily involved in Scientology ended up hurt, victimized, financially ruined, etc..

I have my own theories. Mind you, I’m no expert but I play one on the internet! :p

I think Debbie was heavily traumatised and very ill when she finally left. She was probably in a great deal of fear, emotional pain and spiritual crisis. It took her a couple of years to reach the point where she was angry enough to confront her abuser.

It’s common for people who are leaving a cult to still adhere to or defend certain aspects of it. She hasn’t started to question “Source” and I don’t think that she will until DM is long gone. He’s too perfect an example of the Hubbard SP for her to see beyond that.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...


I wonder what Debbie Cook's e-meter needle would do if she were asked in session whether having cold water thrown at people is based on earlier similar scripture where L. Ron Hubbard had people thrown overboard into cold water?

ANSWER: Her needle would do a Cognition-Dissonance-Bop. That's where it moves back and forth very rapidly between reality and whistling in the dark.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Why because she was tortured? What if PolPot or Stalin endured brutal torture, should I show respect for them? Enduring torture does not automatically mean some should be shown respect, empathy or compassion yes, but not respect. People who endure torture to protect others or for a just cause earn tremendous respect, but I don't see that as the case with Cook.

Whether funny or and irrelevant of what Debbie endured as Int she did play a very BIG role in bringing countless people to Flag where they were ruined financially to pay for brainwashing and lining the pockets of the IAS, she was top dog at flag as Lisa McPherson DIED due to torture and neglect then contributed to the cover up, she herself in her letter to the cult last month boldly states she helped cover up and protect their biggest crimes, etc... There is even a famous story of how after she helped extort a million $ dono out of Italian grandmother Maria Pia Gardinia she went out and bought herself a shiny, new fancy car with her $40,000 cut of the proceeds.

Cook is no saint. She has some seriously dirty hands and her awful treatment at INT for 7 weeks doesn't erase that. Hell she was there for 7 WEEKS there are quite a few who have been in the whole for well over 7 YEARS!! If she was so appalled at her treatment in the hole, the mind boggles at why she remained totally silent about it for 4 years as she knew it continued. When she did finally speak up it wasn't to try and be a voice for those still being brutalized in the hole but because she's upset the cult isn't following some BS LRH policies?!??? Really?? WTF? The mind boggles at her priorities.

The hole was only mentioned because she had to defend herself, and she doesn't seem much concerned that others are still trapped there - her concern is her own treatment and upset at LRH policy not being followed. I so wish she would hold a press conference listing all the 100 men and women she saw held there with her own eyes and detail the conditions and treatment.

So was she a hooker for the cult? Maybe, because she certainly fucked enough public Scios out of their last dime and hell she commanded a whole crew whose life work was doing only that.

Mike Rinder commented on Marty's blog that it was Debbie who came into the hole one night and commanded Mike and others to jump into the freezing waters of the pond at Int. When she arrived at Int she was there as DM's golden girl and as such she tortured others as his behest. Only ironic she was soon going to be trapped in there herself. So what about those Debbie tortured?

However, I think he rough analogy works mainly because that's how DM treats people. Debbie and other SO members are nothing but whores to him. He believes they can be bought, sold and intimidated with violence or his power into doing anything he commands - including brutalizing and abusing others. Unfortunately DM runs Scientology with the ethics of a ghetto pimp. The sadistic, violent, inhumane mentality of a pimp is a pretty close match to Miscavige.

So then I guess a constant drip on one's head isn't torture - just a little drip of water right? If it had happened to Shane or Jordan or Valeska you'd be quick to call it torture. If you think being beaten and forced to stand in a bin for 12 hours with cold water poured over you isn't torture, I suggest you try it. Or try just standing with your arms above your head. If it wasn't torture her lawyer would be stupid to suggest it was - as this would not be factually correct.

What is inaccurate is likening this woman to a whore - something I find extremely insulting, not to mention hypocritical. She's no more of a whore than you are, or anyone else doing their best to do a post in a Scientology organisation. So if she's a whore then every staff member is, which is frankly ridiculous.

In my opinion torture of ANY PERSON is not justified for any reason. The ends DO NOT justify the means.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yes, I agree that all things considered, the physical abuse she described was not extreme. Her torture was largely psychological in nature.



She made choices that led her there after she was thoroughly indoctrinated in the Scientology mindset. Her decisions were all based on and around Scientology. She started her training in her early teens, was a kid when she signed her billion year contract. All she knew was Scientology. So her decisions were made based on her belief that Scientology was the only hope of man. It’s right out of Lifton’s 8 Criteria for Mind Control. Point 5: Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Incredibly easy to justify your actions in light of such a ‘truth”.



Being Captain FSO meant making money, first and foremost, so I am sure Debbie did or condoned a lot of messed up things to make the almighty target. I'm sure she degraded and abused her share of people. I'm also sure she was degraded and abused over the years. It was my experience that occasional abuse and degradation are part and parcel of life on staff. I can’t count the times I was reamed out by a senior and then bitched out for responding and told to “get my TRs in” or go to ethics. Enough “bullbait” whether on course or on post, and you start to be numb to it. I am in no way saying that is a good thing. I’m just saying that it happens.



I have my own theories. Mind you, I’m no expert but I play one on the internet! :p

I think Debbie was heavily traumatised and very ill when she finally left. She was probably in a great deal of fear, emotional pain and spiritual crisis. It took her a couple of years to reach the point where she was angry enough to confront her abuser.

It’s common for people who are leaving a cult to still adhere to or defend certain aspects of it. She hasn’t started to question “Source” and I don’t think that she will until DM is long gone. He’s too perfect an example of the Hubbard SP for her to see beyond that.

I don't disagree with anything you say. I do understand Cook, via indoctrination, rationalized everything she did as being for the greater good and/or on policy. My main issue with is that while I understand all this, I can not always tolerate it as an excuse. It's a slippery slope, but we didn't forgive the Nazis or Khmer Rogue because they truly thought they were doing it for the greatest good or were throughly indoctrinated. Civilized people decided "just following orders" doesn't wash and has been said many times the road to hell can be paved with the best of intentions.

I guess I just see there is a certain amount participating, allowing and being silent about abuse that many execs pass in their ambition to get to the top of the org board that can't be rationalized or excused due to indoctrination. For instance Witnessing abusive, depraved incidents towards children (cadet org) and the obscene conditions they lived in. People do know deep down certain things are wrong, cruel, sadistic - but they push down their natural reaction for a variety of reasons. (if they don't have those natural reactions then they are sociopaths and that's another ballgame.)

I guess what bothers me the most is as Debbie wakes up to what via her work and dedication to Scientology created, she still is supporting it. It seems she is mainly upset with the last few years when she collided with DM, but describes most of her career until then in glowing terms.

It bothers me to no end that people can live and see the horrible, fucked up reality that is the end result of their belief system yet still promote and embrace it because they have some fantasy about how it should be if was only followed 100% correctly by everyone. I hate to use this comparison but it's like defending National Socialism by saying Hitler just did it wrong, or communism is a great system but others have just done it wrong. Fuck that, you got the reality not the fantasy. What Scientology is today is reality, it is FACT. Just because you fantasize it would be different in your dreamworld is bullshit. She is promoting a system where she knows firsthand what the end result, the factual reality IS just because she's holding on to a delusion of what she thinks it "should" be. That's my main beef with Cook and others in this mindset. Until your precious beliefs aren't in practice in the real world destroying lives and sadistically abusing people then it is irresponsible and evil to keep promoting them just because you "believe" it "could" be different in some altered non-existent reality in your head.

Don't get me wrong the conundrums I'm posting about, someone being able to be the victim and the abuser simultaneously, true believers actions, etc... are all the fodder of philosophy and there are many opinions and systems within philosophy to view this situation. It's heavy duty stuff and I just find the discussion and debate surrounding it both interesting and very important to engage in within others and the public at large. It's one of those issues I understand much about it, but it doesn't make answers any easier - in fact it makes them even more difficult to unearth. But thats the wonderful and scary thing about not living in a cult think world where everything is black and white - the b&w world and type of thinking Debbie promotes. We wogs here are giving her more understanding and contemplation than any member of CoS or Scientologist is allowed too. Just as wog law gave her rights she was thrilled about, but LRH doesn't tolerate in Scientology.
 
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freethinker

Sponsor
In her email to the church asking for quid pro quo, she admitted to knowingly covering up crimes but those crimes only became horrendous when they were perpetrated on her. Otherwise she was totally willing to be complicit.:duh: That's what I got anyway.
The hole was only mentioned because she had to defend herself, and she doesn't seem much concerned that others are still trapped there - her concern is her own treatment and upset at LRH policy not being followed. I so wish she would hold a press conference listing all the 100 men and women she saw held there with her own eyes and detail the conditions and treatment.
The press release is the new SP Declare.:yes:
How about you write one and show us how it is done, then? What would you suggest?

(My position is that there is no press release they could write that would help, short of changing tack completely after 60 years.)

Paul
 
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