CPS gives scientology religious protection in UK

[Axiom142]

An interesting development, I would love to see it tested in a court of law.

The CoS may well try and get protestors prosecuted, but I can see this ending up as a massive footbullet.

Anyone contesting a prosecution brought under this act would have a wealth of information to call upon to show that the CoS acts like a cult and should not be given religious status. How could they justify protection under the law against ‘inciting hatred’, when they themselves have done exactly that to numerous groups and individuals? Remember the ‘Global Obliteration’ of psychiatry IAS video, complete with hand grenades? Or Tom Cruise saying “No mercy. None! Go to guns?”

Imagine if all that came out in court and the CoS suffered the humiliation of being shown for what they really are and the case being thrown out because they weren’t a religion? And Graeme Wilson would have to back up his claim of millions of Scientologists. I’m sure that anyone being prosecuted could count on the support of several human rights organisations.

I can’t see such a case happening, but if it did, it would be a major news story and an important test of freedom of speech.

Axiom142

 

[lionheart]

An interesting development, I would love to see it tested in a court of law.

The CoS may well try and get protestors prosecuted, but I can see this ending up as a massive footbullet.

Anyone contesting a prosecution brought under this act would have a wealth of information to call upon to show that the CoS acts like a cult and should not be given religious status. How could they justify protection under the law against ‘inciting hatred’, when they themselves have done exactly that to numerous groups and individuals? Remember the ‘Global Obliteration’ of psychiatry IAS video, complete with hand grenades? Or Tom Cruise saying “No mercy. None! Go to guns?”

Imagine if all that came out in court and the CoS suffered the humiliation of being shown for what they really are and the case being thrown out because they weren’t a religion? And Graeme Wilson would have to back up his claim of millions of Scientologists. I’m sure that anyone being prosecuted could count on the support of several human rights organisations.

I can’t see such a case happening, but if it did, it would be a major news story and an important test of freedom of speech.

Axiom142

Exactly. And remember the CPS backed down over prosecuting Epic Nose Guy. That day before the arrest took place I spoke to the Police Inspector when he arrived. He said his seniors and lawyers had looked at footage of previous protests and his orders were to treat the word "cult" as a violation of the law.

I quoted the Religious Hatred Act that ScudMuffin quotes in his banner above and the words of Judge Latey. The Inspector said he wasn't here to interpret the law today, but just to follow his orders that were based upon CPS legal advice.

I asked him to refer his seniors to Judge Latey's judgement and the Religious Hatred Act and that we were free to ridicule and criticise a religion. He said he would pass that on to his seniors.

So for that day they were applying a judgement given by the CPS over the word cult. He did confirm that one could quote a judge's words without committing an offence.

This is all on video for that day's protest.

I went to Epic Nose Guy and warned him that he would be arrested if he didn't take his sign down. He said the sign stays, so I gave him a copy of the act and Judge Latey's words which he quoted while he was arrested.

The CPS backed down after the arrest and didn't prosecute.

The situation now is essentially the same as how the law was interpreted that day.

It is easy to avoid arrest by simply quoting other legal judgements and findings.

It will be interesting to see if the CofS is stupid enough to push the police to arrest someone. I think their main game here is more likely to be that this is a step towards religious recognition in the UK with all the taxation and legal implications that that would have. Isn't that what Sunday's IAS event was about (only 40 turned up! - I remember the day when London events at the Hilton regularly pulled in 400/500 people!).

 

[Daedle]

I'll be making a Freedom of Information request to find out why CPS decided this and what their logic was...

 

[UkAnony]

Basil of WWP look for post 166

http://forums.whyweprotest.net/15-m...egal-protection-against-hate-britain-41068/9/


Ok I've just gotten off the phone to the CPS office in London's Public Enquiry Office.

tl;dr version: it's the first they've heard of it.

The CPS do not make laws, they only act on existing laws (the Home Office decide on law changes), the Police investigate reported crimes based on existing laws, then the CPS decide whether the case goes to prosecution, based on two factors:

1) Is there enough evidence?
2) Is it in the public interest?

The whole 'CPS Code' can be read here: The CPS : The Code for Crown Prosecutors - pick a language. http://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/code.html


As far as I can tell, there has been no 'change of law', thus the Daily Mail's opening of "The Crown Prosecution Service has decided that anyone who attacks Scientology can be prosecuted under faith hate laws" seems entirely unlikely, unless anyone knows of a UK case involving Scientology and a critic, where it has gone to the CPS to decide whether it merits proceeding to prosecution - and based on the various facts have decided that including Scientology in the list of faiths is qualified, not the only basis for qualification. The very nice lady at the CPS also explained that there would never be a "blanket proceeding" that any case involving Scientology would automatically go to prosecution - it must fulfil the requirements of the Code, listed above.

In theory, if the scilons whine, the Police could ask us to take down signs or stop giving out leaflets if they were considered to potentially be in violation of the Hate Crime laws (we've already ascertained section 29J gives us the right to criticise, it's just how you say it) but unless it was something really dumb like "burn orgs and hang scientologists" it's very unlikely to go anywhere.

Perhaps we could ask Mr Liberty Lawyer to drop by next week, just in case?

Next step, ask the Daily Mail what their source was...

 

[ScudMuffin]

They didn't decide anything, they just clarified things.

The R&RHA protects EVERYONE from hate crimes on grounds of race and religion. Even Athiests. Nothing has changed aside from the CPS has said to the coppers "Yes, the R&RHA even applies to Scientologists." It's a clarification, not a new ruling.

It protected scientologists before, it protectes them now. Will it mean we'll all get done for hate crimes? No. This is because of section 29j. We can play OT3, take the piss to their faces (considered abusing), we can say Scientology is a huge pile of wanky toss and bullshit and only a stupid twat would believe it, so forth and so on. What it prevents us from doing is whipping people into a frenzy against them or handing out hate media, or giving hate speeches inciting violence and hatred on the basis that people are scientologists.

Besides, we're going after the church of scientology and not the individuals so we're ok.

 

[Ladybird]

I guess this day has come:

"Someday, someone, will say this is illegal.. let's make sure that by that time we are the ones who say what is legal or not." L Ron Hubbard


"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." --Robert A. Heinlein,

 

[Whitedove]

I guess this day has come:

"Someday, someone, will say this is illegal.. let's make sure that by that time we are the ones who say what is legal or not." L Ron Hubbard


"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." --Robert A. Heinlein,

I know
My tought exactly.
So now what in the world can be done?
Are we going to become an underground group like u see in the movies?

 

[ScudMuffin]

I guess this day has come:

"Someday, someone, will say this is illegal.. let's make sure that by that time we are the ones who say what is legal or not." L Ron Hubbard


"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." --Robert A. Heinlein,

No. This act has always protected EVERYONE. It's designed to take on radical islam & the far right groups such as the BNP, Combat 18, White Wolves, Jamat il Islam and even the Animal Liberation Front.

Basically, to be prosecuted under this law, you'd need to tell people to attack and or kill scientologists. That's it. As far as protests go it's business as usual with a little more clarity on material and signs. You can protest Catholocism, Judaism, Islam and obviously Scientology and Pastafarianism quite happily as long as there's no incitement to hatred and violence. Oh, and the law has been in effect since 2006.

As far as scientology is concerened, it's not recognised as a religion (though it has always been considered a belief under this law), it isn't recognised as a religion for the purpose of charity law (the 1999 ruling still applies).

Nothing of value was gained by scientology.

 

[RolandRB]

Exactly. And remember the CPS backed down over prosecuting Epic Nose Guy. That day before the arrest took place I spoke to the Police Inspector when he arrived. He said his seniors and lawyers had looked at footage of previous protests and his orders were to treat the word "cult" as a violation of the law.

I quoted the Religious Hatred Act that ScudMuffin quotes in his banner above and the words of Judge Latey. The Inspector said he wasn't here to interpret the law today, but just to follow his orders that were based upon CPS legal advice.

I asked him to refer his seniors to Judge Latey's judgement and the Religious Hatred Act and that we were free to ridicule and criticise a religion. He said he would pass that on to his seniors.

So for that day they were applying a judgement given by the CPS over the word cult. He did confirm that one could quote a judge's words without committing an offence.

This is all on video for that day's protest.

I went to Epic Nose Guy and warned him that he would be arrested if he didn't take his sign down. He said the sign stays, so I gave him a copy of the act and Judge Latey's words which he quoted while he was arrested.

The CPS backed down after the arrest and didn't prosecute.

The situation now is essentially the same as how the law was interpreted that day.

It is easy to avoid arrest by simply quoting other legal judgements and findings.

It will be interesting to see if the CofS is stupid enough to push the police to arrest someone. I think their main game here is more likely to be that this is a step towards religious recognition in the UK with all the taxation and legal implications that that would have. Isn't that what Sunday's IAS event was about (only 40 turned up! - I remember the day when London events at the Hilton regularly pulled in 400/500 people!).

If any members of the police force have got any aspirations of being invited to St. Hill with their wives and having their photo taken alongside Tom Cruise then they had better practise wading in with their truncheons and splitting some SP skulls.

 

[Zinjifar]

If they're hoping for that, they'd better practice wading in much deeper elements, and buy clothespins.

Zinj

 

[ScudMuffin]

We've already got one PC bollocked in Brum. Guy called Steven Wheeler. AFAWK he's a sci, possibly the brother of one called Dan Wheeler.

 

[ReaganYouth]

I can (sort of) understand how they protect scientologists as far as them having a viewpoint, but I DO NOT get how calling them a cult can be prosecuted...

I posted on whyweprotest to see if anyone knows the difference between the US and Britain's free speech laws because, in the US legal system, we protect ANY form of speech where there is the potential for truth. I find it absurd that vocalizing something that is not only an opinion, but fact, can be criminalized.

There is a lot of research out there that illustrates exactly how and why Scientology IS a cult- so I don't get this law.

In the end, I guess it is small potatoes... they still don't get tax breaks in the UK like the do in the states. Considering the whole thing is about $$$$, the scientologists haven't really gained anything over there, right? Does anyone know what percentage of the church's base is in the UK? I am sure it is so small that the members from there only make up a super small percentage of the COS revenue...

 

[Dulloldfart]

Does anyone know what percentage of the church's base is in the UK? I am sure it is so small that the members from there only make up a super small percentage of the COS revenue...

If you search Google, maybe Groups, you'll find a list of donors, maybe for IAS or maybe Super Power ("Cornerstone"), listed by country, that would give you an idea.

Paul

 

[hartley]

The CPS backed down after the arrest and didn't prosecute.

On one point in your otherwise accurate summary of the Epic Nose Affair (!) I disagree. My impression from the resulting spat between the CPS and the Toytown police was that the CPS had given some not 100% clear advice, the police had read into it what they wanted to read rather than what it actually said, and the result was the arrest.
It was highly unusual for the CPS to publicly give the police an instant slapping like that. Normally they would have buried the file at the bottom of their 'In' tray and waiting until the Media had lost interest.

Scudmuffin here and Basil reposted from WWP, both UK Anons, are correct. This may well be a confused media report.

Back to the OP: as I posted on WWP I think the ruling (if it ever existed) is correct since I think Scientology IS a religion. Its adherents deserve the same protection under the Act as other believers.

That is not the problem. The problem is that 99% of 'outsiders' think this means the CoS is a religion, the CoS will spin it that way, and even some of you lot who should know better think so. So there will be problems, and I really hope the CPS is unofficially and through back channels telling the police that they should err on the side of caution. I hope, but I'm not hopeful.

 

[hartley]

Does anyone know what percentage of the church's base is in the UK? I am sure it is so small that the members from there only make up a super small percentage of the COS revenue...

5% of staff due to the ASO at Saint Hill, only one viable Org at Birmingham, the rest pretty moribund. The new Org in London is empty, our man checked the other day and found only three people in the building! Under 2,000 active members in the UK? It would not in the least surprise me if the cash flow was downlines to the UK, not up.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The new Org in London is empty, our man checked the other day and found only three people in the building!

Some pix of that would be great promo (for us, not them). Three people would have a hard time even keeping it dusted.

Paul

 

[RolandRB]

5% of staff due to the ASO at Saint Hill, only one viable Org at Birmingham, the rest pretty moribund. The new Org in London is empty, our man checked the other day and found only three people in the building! Under 2,000 active members in the UK? It would not in the least surprise me if the cash flow was downlines to the UK, not up.

Three meat bodies, maybe, but I bet that place was packed with excited body thetans looking forward to picking up bodies and later going on lines.

 

[RolandRB]

On one point in your otherwise accurate summary of the Epic Nose Affair (!) I disagree. My impression from the resulting spat between the CPS and the Toytown police was that the CPS had given some not 100% clear advice, the police had read into it what they wanted to read rather than what it actually said, and the result was the arrest.
It was highly unusual for the CPS to publicly give the police an instant slapping like that. Normally they would have buried the file at the bottom of their 'In' tray and waiting until the Media had lost interest.

Scudmuffin here and Basil reposted from WWP, both UK Anons, are correct. This may well be a confused media report.

Back to the OP: as I posted on WWP I think the ruling (if it ever existed) is correct since I think Scientology IS a religion. Its adherents deserve the same protection under the Act as other believers.

That is not the problem. The problem is that 99% of 'outsiders' think this means the CoS is a religion, the CoS will spin it that way, and even some of you lot who should know better think so. So there will be problems, and I really hope the CPS is unofficially and through back channels telling the police that they should err on the side of caution. I hope, but I'm not hopeful.

The word CULT, the cult will claim, causes offence to their members and they tell the police that they will not be able to contain their members unless the word CULT is removed from the protest signs.

 

[ScudMuffin]

5% of staff due to the ASO at Saint Hill, only one viable Org at Birmingham

You know why that is? Because it is right next to a major street for trade and traffic. look at all the other orgs around the UK, they're all away from town centres and/or traffic. That's it. CoScientology needs to get people into orgs for the greatest chance of getting recruits and sales. Seriously the last org to fall in the UK will be Birmingham. Manchester, Plymouth and all the others, they will go long before the one in Brum.

 

[ScudMuffin]

The word CULT, the cult will claim, causes offence to their members and they tell the police that they will not be able to contain their members unless the word CULT is removed from the protest signs.

They tried that and failed. They also said that brumanons were scaring the children inside the org. The coppers turned up and said 'lets see these kids then'. There weren't any.

Coppers in brum are generally used to the cult now and it's getting rare we get a copper who has a go. mostly they just want to check how many people are here.