ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Crikey! Senate lends Scientology a helping hand

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by skollie, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. byte301

    byte301 Crusader

    So sorry Purple Rain, I didn't mean to insult exes in one fell swoop. We've just seen a lot of them waver and go back to the cult or do some bizarre things.

    When you're dealing with people on the internet it makes trust an even bigger issue.

    You looked like a perfectly lovely person in the videos.

    But like Pooks says, I would tell Anonymous not to trust me either unless I provided dox. Then the trust issue is moot.
     
  2. Ned Kelly

    Ned Kelly Patron

    Here's my 2c on Aaron – and I am not saying it is worth 2c

    After reading many of his emails and watching his videos I would certainly not trust what he has to say. He talks very big but provides no supporting documentation or information.

    I worked at a senior level within the SO (years before Aaron was in the SO) and from what I can see he was at a quite junior level within that organisation. I am also very well aware of the OSA /PI/Operative channels and I very much doubt that someone who was not in OSA / RTC or Author Services would have any real idea on what the primary targets were, what their strategies were, what the operating policies are or what projects and plans they have in play. I know that this information is very tightly held and no flunkie over in the HJB is going to be across it.

    I am not putting myself in a position of support or recommending these people – but Larry, Marty, Mike, Jesse these people would have known what was happening. To use an analogy to try and put it in perspective – while Marty could be likened to an Executive VP of a large international Bank, Aaron was not even at the Branch Manager level. Carmel would have probably had as much or if not more access than Aaron ever had.

    I think, and correct me if I am wrong, Aaron was in the CMO for what – 2 or 3 years and about a year of that on training? In my view there is no way that he is privy to the information that he infers that he has. Or he is placing a very high importance on relatively unimportant data.

    I see Aaron on using his X CMO status in LA to position himself as someone of importance. To do this he must create some mystery about who he is, where he has been, what he has seen and what he has done. When I compare the facts of what he alludes to, to what others in the X community have seen and done, he does not rate.

    He thinks that he is engaged in a war and that he is winning. Well if he truly know anything, he would know that all that has been going on is a few skirmishes. When the CoS goes into battle, I am sorry to say but he has not seen anything yet – and most of it he will never see. He is fighting a PR battle, and although that PR battle is not going to be good for CoS business, the real fight that Aaron wants to win is a major legal battle. He does not have the resources, knowledge, skills AND most importantly factual evidence that can withstand that shitstorm that will be coming his way. For Christ's sake, he wanted to go running off with his tail between his legs because a couple of AVOs were filed. Man if he can't handle a gentle sea breeze what's he going to be like when the hurricane hit's.

    Further, his advice for a organized and structured approach would play right into their hands. It is the fact that it is happening on the internet, where people can speak up and be anonymous, that is the greatest PR threat to them. Putting a central point of command and control in place is a brilliant recipe for disaster! For someone who supposedly “knows” how they operate, this is an incredibly incompetent piece of advice.

    Actually having a background in some of the areas that he claims, albeit some time ago, I think that he is a loose cannon that will play right into the CoS hands. He is right that they will first try and discredit him. They will thoroughly dig into and document his past and will put their spin doctors, legal people and senior OSA personnel onto getting every advantage that they can with it. If they can put him in jail, then they will definitely try to do that. So I hope for his sake his hands are pretty clean.

    Why is this of any consequence – well because when it actually gets to an inquiry or a legal matter, he can stand up and shout that he “KNOWS but unless he can produce evidence to support his accusations, he will be discredited and in that process this will rub off badly for anyone else who is associated with him.

    So as I said, it was just a couple of cents worth of my view, and not necessarily worth that.
     
  3. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Purple Rain,
    It's just commentary here on ESMB, please don't take it personally at all.
    You did great at the protest and for my money, your speech was the most REAL; real emotion, real outrage and real commitment to ending the abuse. You did great!
    Keep moving forward however you can, it gets better with every step you take.
    Love, Panda.
     
  4. Feral

    Feral Rogue male

    Welcome to the forum Ned.

    Thanks for your input, it's pretty much in line with the observations that we've made too.

    The good news is that as far as his input for the inquiry he's pretty well stayed with the hard and fast facts and Aaron was HAS CMO INT which means he did have a high degree of seniority and had access to all that he said he did to the Parliamentary Privileges Committee.

    Say G'day to Dan, Steve and Joe for me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2010
  5. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well hellooo Ned Kelly. Your voice is rational. Yay!

    Say more any time you feel like it.

    Nice to have here amongst the delightful colourful riff riff that makes up ESMB. :)
     
  6. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    Welcome Ned.

    Very well stated. :thumbsup:
     
  7. Ned Kelly

    Ned Kelly Patron

    Thanks for the welcomes.

    I have been trying to put a finger on what I think Aaron's game is really about.

    I don't think he is incredibly stupid but I do think that he is up to something.

    Now if his goal is to bring down the Sea Org, and to do that he knows that he needs a legal win he must THINK that he has the evidence and resources available to be engaged in a world wide assault that would outlaw the SO from operating from any base. A win in Aus or the US will not achieve his aims.

    OR

    Maybe he has other goals that he has not mentioned? He seems happiest in the PR role rather than in the legal arena. So aside from aggrandising himself for his own ego trip, what is in it for him? Could he be trying to create a future role in what he sees as a growing community and setting himself up as some kind of expert witness. You know go an do a (paid / expenses paid) trip to Germany, France, London etc to give his expert testimony?

    I found it a little strange that after he said he was leaving, when money was offered to help on his defence, he jumped back into the fray

    I don't for a minute think I actually know what his plans are, but I just can't see that he does not have an inkling of what is coming and so hypothetise that he sees something else in it for him. Maybe it is just he is a glory hound. Or he truly believes he is specially equipped to be some sort of saviour.

    Anyway, I can't always trust my gut, but something is not right in Denmark!
     
  8. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    I'm afraid I don't really know what 'dox' are, but I don't see that I'm less trustworthy than any other person regardless of their background.

    I am an individual with my own strengths and weaknesses. I don't like being put in any sort of box, and I never have. I consider that I am no more or less trustworthy now seventeen years later than I was when I first came out of Scientology.

    Whether others trust me is entirely up to them, and not something I control. I am me. That is all.

    Thank you for the kind things you said about me, though. I really appreciate that.

    :)
     
  9. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    My gut says the same thing about you, Ned, but it's a free country, yeah?
     
  10. Ned Kelly

    Ned Kelly Patron

    Yep well your damn right there - it is a free country and you are free to feel the way you do.:thumbsup:
     
  11. Pooks

    Pooks MERCHANT OF CHAOS

    Re: Aaron

    In Scn they call that KNOWINGNESS.

    And we all know where that got us.
     
  12. byte301

    byte301 Crusader

    Purple Rain,

    Dox means documents or proof. Anonymous asks for them whenever someone makes a claim about something. They don't just take someone's word on something.

    I don't blame you for not wanting to be labeled. I don't like it either and I should have used my words a little more wisely. I forget that there are new people on the board who don't know about dox and all that.

    We've been burned by some people on the internet and that's why we're cautious. It wasn't aimed at you at all.

    Panda is right, you're speech was the most heartfelt. :yes:
     
  13. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Hmm.. I have to say I hate this.. Psychoanalyzing Aaron Saxton like we were in the damn cult still.. Authorities on the Human Mind?

    And ex-scientolgists being 'untrustworthy'.. That's OSA's job to tell! They do that quite satisfactorily, so we hardly need to do it ourselves.

    Now, I don't think that Aaron has any hidden agenda.. He want's to see the cult gone, and the Sea Org in particular.. As he has stated.

    I think he got a bit too full of himself in that video.. I also think that is just for a spell.. He's a bright guy after all.

    Fact is that Aaron has contributed a lot. Obviously Aarons speeches in front of the org is hitting a nerve in there. Like Alanzo said:
    The cult is targeting Aaron! - It is a fact.. Dox'ed by no less than two frivolous AVO's and the smooching Mark Hanna incident. (In which Hanna failed to provoke Aaron into anything.. Maybe he was too quick, and Aaron didn't get time to react?)

    Anyway.. The 'Authorities on the Human Mind' in Scientology has apparently decided that Aaron can be provoked. Maybe into violence.. Which I personally doubt very much..

    This means that Aaron needs to keep a level head and his wits about him! - Well, we all do.. The 'intellectual challenge' in dealing with Hubbardian mindboggeling is rather daunting for any ex-scientologist.

    :yes:
     
  14. KnightVision

    KnightVision Gold Meritorious Patron


    I have a few thoughts and observations regarding Aaron's protest actions.

    From the various things that I see coming from him, I notice a distinct dichotomy in things he has said or is saying, also his demeanor shows a young man with some internal strife at play.

    He does demonstrate a good degree of courage and good intention in working hard to protest the conditions suffered by others while involved in the Cult and his own abuse at the hands of the Co$. It is this latter that I suspect is a source of trouble for him; He doesn't appear to have fully come to terms with it yet; as is the case for many an EX, there is no timetable for finding inner consolement after having been through the Lcon nightmare circus. It will happen when or if it happens.

    (Let me be frank, that this is just my humble suspicion and state for the record that I am not completely sure about it.)

    For want of more knowledge, I will use what I see here and attempt to make some sense of it.

    I do not wish to attack Aaron based upon his personal situation nor his actions as a protester. I have seen Aaron attack others and or be attacked and albeit trying to be understanding, I have not seen any good come of it. On the contrary I find it potentially harmful to other's causes and or his own.

    What I wish to do with my meager, yet sometimes useful insights is to share my views here. If it is of any help towards a better understanding and or sparks others thoughts to arrive at same, it may be of some use...

    As I mentioned above, ' Aaron is working hard to protest the conditions suffered by others while involved in the Cult and his own abuse at the hands of the Co$. It is this latter that I suspect is a source of trouble for him; He doesn't appear to have fully come to terms with it yet'.


    I believe this is the driving force behind his erratic behavior.


    Whether it is what one went through while in the Co$ and or what One's own thoughts or emotions are at having to 'eat crow' in realizing just how gullible and misguided one's decisions were to have let their thoughts, feelings and inner sanctum be directed, controlled, invalidated, accused, recorded and brainwashed by an alleged spiritual organization that one placed ultimate trust in. And for icing on the cake... to have one's belief system and personality stabilizers utterly fall apart. It is devastating.

    For me, just yet, I see this at play. It can and will cause erratic behavior. It can appear that a person's actions, under such difficulty, display a dichotomy. One moment a logical well intentioned Ex trying to sort things out and begin to take some action against the abusive Co$, the next a reckless canon. Supporting the cause of many yet lashing out with incoherent insults at some of the very same folks for reasons that don't easily appear to merit such.

    Another Aspect I see at play is FEAR. Fear makes a person imagine that all sorts of conspiratorial events are threatening to 'do them in'. Consequently, one has the very real tendency to OVER REACT; this can evidence itself in showing (putting on) an outward bravado of invincibility, conjuring up ideas and statements of how one's offense is cunningly sharp and capable of causing his enemies great hardship or defeat! Anybody who calls into question their 'invincible metal' can easily be associated as akin to one's 'aggressors', real or imagined.


    Last but not least or all, the study and application of much of Lcon's work involves adopting an array of illusory concepts; many of them can easily be carried into one's new incarnation after parting ways with the cult, however unless one reexamines and evaluates these learned beliefs, one can continue to make the same mistakes on the outside that they were party to while being a (very heavy) dues paying adept.

    A few of these concepts that can cause illusory or ill conceived thoughts and behaviors:

    What's true for you is true. (Some is, some isn't and some is just wishful thinking)
    We create our own reality. (To a greater or lessor degree but always in conjunction with others and the physical universe that we live in)


    If any of such symptoms are at play in Aaron's behavior, it may explain a few things. Ultimately nobody is going to control Aaron's decisions but himself. I can only hope that his good efforts pay off and that any questionable or erratic behavior doesn't land him in a pit.

    There is no good to come of criticizing his situation; if it's confusing... an attempt to understand what is at play could be constructive as long as it isn't an attempt to label him and or his attempts as negative or useless. For the most part he is doing some very good things, that there may be something else at play affecting his situation is not cause for denouncing him. That would just be foolish beyond all get go.


    Let it be a reminder to us all that working together and taking advantage of the mistakes others have tripped up on, as well as the successful efforts made, in an effort to disclose the abuses and crimes of the Co$.... is the intelligent thing to do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2010
  15. KnightVision

    KnightVision Gold Meritorious Patron


    :thumbsup:
     
  16. Cherished

    Cherished Silver Meritorious Patron

    Knight's Vision, that's very thoughtfully expressed and I find myself agreeing with you.

    It's not easy when your relationship is via the internet, to communicate both truth and love, the essential ingredients. Yet, somehow I think that is our highest calling for all exes, especially those who were in as children; to be understanding and caring, and not failing to hold the mirror up when a dose of reality is required.
     
  17. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Gold Meritorious Patron

  18. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    I think that every Scientologist is trained to attack when attacked. Like military training it sticks to some degree long after you leave.

    I look at some of Aaron's responses and I might feel, "Well, I wouldn't have responded quite that way." Maybe this would have done better with a 'soft word turns away anger' approach or that could have used a bit of 'filling the vaccuum' ....

    But why push somebody's buttons? If you are aware of an Achilles heel, it is surely not wise either to kick it or to broadcast the information to the enemies of that person or the group.

    If I was Aaron I would definitely feel attacked and unloved, even though as Purple I can perhaps see that a lot of those comments are intended in love.

    When I met him I found him very down-to-earth, welcoming and inclusive; and I am a person with an extremely strong aversion to arrogance.

    But I honestly think that every group is most vulnerable from the inside - that is where it comes unstuck. That's where it begins to cannibalise itself. It eats its own heart out. I truly believe that a house divided cannot stand.

    If I was OSA I would literally be breaking out the popcorn and cracking the champers.

    If you are concerned about somebody's ego, I have noticed the best way to deal with it is the 'Facebook' method - i.e. people stop commenting on somebody's activities for a while if they become too full of themselves, and they realise "Hey, this behaviour isn't getting me attention," and they start posting about things that are of wider interest to everybody else and looking outside of themselves.

    I really think if you validate the behaviour you want to see more of and ignore the behaviour you dislike, it is a much more effective method of achieving positive change than invalidating an individual's activities, motives or character. Also, you get to keep your friendship.
     
  19. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    In fairness to Aaron, I believe he was leaving because he was not able to financially fight the restraining orders been thrown at him.


    Good post KV!
     
  20. dontscamme

    dontscamme Patron Meritorious

    I just want to second what Panda said here, Purple.

    Thank you for putting yourself out there and speaking from the heart. :thumbsup: It would be a great loss if you "crawled under a rock."