David and Paul - Hawk Radio Transcript

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Patron Meritorious
Transcript of "The Edge"
broadcast on hawkradio.com on June 17, 2011

Host: Tom Smith
Guests: David Love, Paul Schofield

The transcript below is based on a recording which can be downloaded via the following link:

http://theedgewithtomsmith.com/a/TheEdgeLoveSchofield1.mp3

File name: TheEdgeLoveSchofield1.mp3
Size: 83.8 MB
Duration: 57 minutes, 23 seconds

The format of the time offsets is minutes:seconds (MM:SS).

TRANSCRIPT:

00:02 Announcer: hawkradio.com, student radio for Tampa Bay and the voice of Hillsborough Community College, streaming on the web 24/7.

00:12 Announcer: The content of the following program does not necessarily express or imply the opinions and/or policies of Hillsborough Community College, hawkradio.com, or WXYB AM. The producer of this program created it solely for educational and/or entertainment purposes.

00:48 TOM SMITH: Welcome to "The Edge". Addicts are in very vulnerable positions by dint of their dependency, their breaking of laws or social mores, and the confusion which is part and parcel of their lives. Making false promises to obtain their money or exchanging a socially unacceptable addiction for one less socially unacceptable constitutes exploitation. Our guests today have personal experience with one Scientology program called "Narconon", where the advertised claims are far from fact.

[01:23] David Love is a Canadian who joined Narconon as a result of a painkiller addiction after a logging accident. Dave did the Narconon program in November 2008 in Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, and later became an employee as a graduate officer, registrar, and course-room supervisor. After seeing first-hand the grossly inflated success rate and misrepresentations, Dave left Narconon in October of 2009.

[01:51] Welcome to "The Edge", Dave!

01:52 DAVID LOVE: Thank you very much, Tom. It's nice to be here.

01:55 TOM SMITH: Paul Schofield is an Australian who was a Scientology staff member for over twenty years and later worked for Narconon intermittently from 2002 to 2008. Paul had received Scientology training at the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Florida for over a year, and also had training at the International Training Organization of Scientology in Los Angeles, California.

[02:17] Welcome to "The Edge", Paul!

02:18 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Thanks, Tom. It's nice to be here.

02:20 TOM SMITH: Narconon advertises a seventy-six per cent success rate. How does it define success? And, based on that definition, is the claim truthful? Who wants to answer?

02:33 PAUL SCHOFIELD: [laughs] Do you want to take it first, Dave?

02:36 DAVID LOVE: Okay. Well, as a graduate officer, it was my post and duties to examine the success rate statistics on the computer and with the sheets that they gave me, and to contact the graduate patients, or what they call as students, from Narconon. And this I did. I contacted about six hundred of them. And I started examining the statistics on the computer. And, just with their calculations alone, the success rate that they advertised on their website and promote to people looking at coming in there — actually they even promote it as seventy-six per cent, as the email that I had received from one of the registrars. After looking at the stats, just on face value, their own numbers, the calculation was forty-six per cent. When you include the staff relapses, it dropped down to about twenty-something per cent. And if you include the patients or students that do not complete the program, you're going to drop down to about six to ten per cent.

03:34 TOM SMITH: Okay. How do they define success?

03:36 DAVID LOVE: They define success as somebody who has completed the Narconon program and is certified to be, well, cured for life or ready to go, and are clean and sober for a period of two years.

03:49 TOM SMITH: Okay. So you found, using their own criteria, an actual —

03:53 DAVID LOVE: Yes.

03:53 TOM SMITH: — success rate of forty-seven per cent?

03:56 DAVID LOVE: Forty-s— forty-six per cent.

03:58 TOM SMITH: Forty-six per cent. Paul, in your experience at Narconon in Australia, what did you find? By their own criteria, what did you find their success rate as?

04:08 PAUL SCHOFIELD: When I looked at a whole list of students who had been through the Narconon program in Sydney, I worked out the success rate, for about a four-year period of data that I had available, at about ten per cent. That was people who I wasn't sure were still off drugs who we hadn't heard had not reverted. So we had a ten per cent that was possibly lower than that, but it was a maximum of ten per cent. That was for Narconon Sydney.

[04:39] For Narconon Melbourne, it was very hard to get accurate statistics. I sat down with their registrar, their intake counselor, one day, and we looked over all the figures, and we came up with a figure less than thirty per cent of people who'd finished the program and stayed off drugs for over two years.

[05:00] So, you know, either way, whenever I see the seventy-five per cent success rate, I cringe.

[05:04] Now, just as an interesting side note here, I've had some association with Narconon from before 2002. Back in the nineties, they were promoting it as having a sixty per cent success rate. In the early 2000s, it was being promoted as a sixty-six per cent success rate. When I started working at Narconon Sydney around 2002, it went from sixty-six to seventy per cent. Now you have seventy-five per cent. And I think Dave can tell you that, in some cases, they're claiming even higher than that. So it seems like, the more that the years go on, the higher the success rate claim becomes. [laughs] Its just — I don't think it's — has more than a nodding acquaintance with reality, myself.

05:45 TOM SMITH: So what I see as a common denominator in Canada and in Australia is a success rate less than thirty per cent.

05:54 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Absolutely.

05:54 DAVID LOVE: Absolutely far below. And some of the Narconons in the United States are advertising on their websites and in their brochures a success rate of ninety per cent. Brad Melnychuk, who is the president of ABLE Canada, he was at a Senate hearing and he quoted that some of the bigger, more established Narconons have success rates to close to one hundred per cent. Now this is just absolute ridiculous. It's ... It's not even, uh, ... It's absurd.

06:23 TOM SMITH: Do either of you have any knowledge of any controlled clinical trials done to evaluate the Narconon program?

06:32 PAUL SCHOFIELD: I've never seen one that's come up with a success rate. I'm still actually looking to see if there has been any done in Australia. I've never heard anything which has even vaguely approximated what Narconon is claiming. The — All the ones that I have seen. I've — I've looked at quite a lot of it on the net, and Dave has probably looked for more than I have. None of them come anywhere close to the — the claimed rate of even sixty per cent, let alone seventy-five or eighty or ninety per cent.

07:03 TOM SMITH: Yeah. So you're not aware of any medical studies done. What I meant by "controlled clinical trials" was a formal scientific medical study done to evaluate the Narconon program.

07:13 DAVID LOVE: Uh, there wa—

07:13 PAUL SCHOFIELD: There was — Yeah, there was one in, uh, was it Sweden or Norway that it was done quite some time ago? That didn't give a particularly glowing success rate to Narconon. You probably remember that better than me, Dave.

07:26 DAVID LOVE: Yes, I do remember that and there — there was a clinical study that they were going to do or started to do with the sauna program. And they found that it was just — it was too dangerous and risky for the — the health of the patients that were doing it. To complete it, it was just too dangerous, and they didn't want to complete it.

07:46 TOM SMITH: Now, in that program, Hubbard prescribed in his — in his bulletins, taking that the — the person on this program — And it's also used in — in Scientology as well; it's called the "Purification Rundown", where they take large doses of niacin and other vitamins above what's considered to be a toxic level. Can you comment on that? Have you seen any — While you were associated with the Narconon program either as a client there or as a staff member, did you see any problems as a result of these vitamins? The massive doses of vitamins.

08:24 DAVID LOVE: Okay. Well, I've seen some very serious medical problems of the patients that were in the Purification Rundown, the sauna program, who were taking high doses of niacin, up to five thousand milligrams. The average is about — They want you to go up to a minimum of two thousand six hundred. And one person was rushed to the hospital in a coma for about three days. They neglected to give him his insulin, and he nearly died. If it wasn't for the emergency staff at the hospital, he probably would have died. Now, I did file a complaint with the Ministry of Health and Social Services and, when they went to the hospital to take a look at the records, they are no longer there. So we're moving forward with this with intelligence police and investigators to see what happened to these records. And that's not the only thing that's gone missing, but, you know, it's — it's history that has — It's happened before in history, missing files and whatnot, but we'll get to the bottom of it. Because, in a case like this, staff, doctors, whoever looked after him while he was there, they won't forget. Neither will the staff member who took him there.

[09:26] Another man, who was my twin while I was at Narconon, he nearly —

09:31 TOM SMITH: By — By "twin", you mean somebody who you paired up with in the program.

09:35 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. Somebody they pair you up with to do some Scientology auditing on each other. That way, they don't have to pay a staff member. They exploit the patients to do this work for them.

[09:44] Yeah. He ended up with severe stomach pains and they gave him nothing for it. Gave him a — They sent him to his room for the day, so he was moaning in agony all day long in his room. Finally, they took him to the hospital, and he was so sick they admitted to him — they admitted him to the hospital.

[09:58] Other cases of psychological breakdowns, you know, one person put his fist through the window. There's screaming. There's — there's — there's — It's — It's a very bizarre scene at times. People throwing up. And, of course, you haven't got any medical staff there, no nurses. And, you know, the people who are monitoring this, what they do is they — they examine you, they examine your symptoms after you take the niacin. So, you know, they examine you, they diagnose, and they prescribe and administer the next day's dosage of niacin.

[10:28] So we've got the College of Physicians up here looking at them practicing medicine without a license, and this is a very, very serious thing. Because, in essence, that's what they're doing.

10:37 TOM SMITH: Yeah. Well, I think — Didn't Hubbard, somewhere, say that — that vitamins were food? Which is — Which is kind of strange, because vitamins are either extracted from food substances, can they be — they can be extracted from fish liver, or extracted from wheat, grain of some kind, or they're synthesized. And it seems to me that, I mean, a food is just — it's a raw substance or a cooked substance that comes from nature, from an animal or a plant. But when you start separating out the chemical components of that, you no longer have food, you have a purified substance, which really qualifies as an over-the-counter pharmaceutical.

11:12 DAVID LOVE: Absolutely. That's very true. And when you're talking about niacin, many people who go into any rehab center, their liv— their livers have been compromised from many years of drug abuse and alcoholism. In fact, that's what usually goes in an alcoholic, it's the cirrhosis of the liver. So you've got people in there with compromised livers, and the Narconon doctor, of course, is a Scientologist in Montreal. He's being investigated too by the College of Physicians. And people allowed to go into the sauna when they've got high liver enzyme counts is — is extremely serious and it — it can be, you know, it can cause death. The recommended upper limit, RDA, is thirty-five milligrams. At doses of over fifty milligrams, it may cause, you know, all kinds of problems. You know. And we're going up to two thousand six hundred milligrams, up to five thousand milligrams. I mean, it's a recipe for disaster.

12:09 TOM SMITH: Yeah. Hubbard didn't he claim that taking niacin, which is nicotinic acid — I'm not referring to niacinamide, which is in the —

12:16 DAVID LOVE: Right.

12:16 TOM SMITH: — a substance, natural substance, a substance which is found in the body.

12:21 DAVID LOVE: That's right. Yeah.

12:22 TOM SMITH: It causes flushing and, it was according to his theory, what it did is it ran out radiation. It was radiation coming out of your body when you took the niacin and got the flushing.

12:31 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. Yeah. We got to remember that when he — when Hubbard wrote all this stuff back in the fifties — and this is the problem with Scientology, I see in many cases — is that he wrote it back then and, of course, you — nothing can be changed. Nobody can change anything. What he said was godsend. So as science — science and health evolved, he didn't change. I mean, he knew very little about what he was doing back then and now it's scientific proof that we've got — that this does cause damage. Of course, they're not going to change it.

13:04 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah. Can I just add something here, Tom? Dave raised an interesting point there, that what niacin does — actually you raised the point — that niacin is supposedly something which rids the body of radiation, per Hubbard. And also, per Hubbard, niacin is something which rids the body of all sorts of other accumulated toxins. So every Narconon staff member is trained to look at any sort of illness or any sort of problem that the person has while doing the Purification Rundown as simply something that the niacin is causing, and the cure for this, per Hubbard, is to keep giving them niacin.

13:43 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

13:43 PAUL SCHOFIELD: So it's — it's not just a matter of — "Oh, my goodness! This stuff actually can be toxic." It's a matter of the people, quote-unquote, "trained" to do — to deliver this to the poor students, either in a Church of Scientology or at Narconon or anywhere else they're doing it, will look at these symptoms of medical problems and simply put them down to being something which the niacin has triggered. And the cure for this is to continue the dose of niacin until these symptoms disappear. So there is that —

[14:20] Now, I — I— This is a little bit off-topic, but I think it's very relevant to hear. I think it was either 2007 or 2005, there was a court case raised in the Australian Capital Territory here in Australia where the — I think it was the Health Department of the Australian Capital Territory, which is a bit like Washington, D.C., the D.C. around Washington — it's the area that the national capital, Canberra, is in. The Health Department there took the church to court over the Purification Rundown. Now the church never offered any scientific validation for the Purification Rundown, but actually stressed that it was a religious ritual. And that was the only reason they were allowed to continue, was because it was a religious ritual.

15:11 DAVID LOVE: [inaudible]

15:11 PAUL SCHOFIELD: And the finding actually states that they had no medical proof, and the church offered no medical proof, for this being an effective thing. It was just a religious ritual. But the exact same rundown is promoted by Narconon as a scientifically tested detox program.

15:32 DAVID LOVE: That's right.

15:32 PAUL SCHOFIELD: It's the exact same thing. And it's — it's this constant conflict of — well, over here in the church, this is a religious service that you're doing, and it's all spiritual, whereas, over at Narconon, the exact same service is classified as a scientifically proven detox program, or the rest of the program, which is — The Narconon is basically a bunch of introductory Scientology services.

15:59 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

16:00 PAUL SCHOFIELD: They're all labeled as aids for addiction rather than, you know, what the church sells them for, which is introductory spiritual services. So it's like — They — They play both sides of the coin here. On one side they're saying, "Narconon, it's all secular." But the exact same thing is being talked about in Scientology and sold at a third or a quarter of the price that people who go to Narconon pay for it. And that's being sold in Scientology as a spiritual service. And that's something that we've been trying to bring to the attention of authorities here in Australia, is that Narconon is basically Scientology. There's virtually no difference in what's given to an addict as what's given to a new Scientologist in the Scientology building —

16:41 DAVID LOVE: That's right.

16:41 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — except there's a few name changes.

16:43 TOM SMITH: Has any government —

16:44 PAUL SCHOFIELD: And that's all.

16:44 TOM SMITH: Yeah. Has any government charged them or investigated them for material misrepresentation and fraud?

16:51 PAUL SCHOFIELD: None that I know of. We've been trying to get something happening here in Australia, but we've got so much else going on at the moment. It's a little bit down the list. I'm — I'm hoping to get something going with the Charities Commission, which is coming up fairly soon, and give them a whole bunch of evidence, so that we can get Narconon's tax-free status taken away. I'm looking at some possibly very good news on that in the next few months, which I'm waiting for a particular government department to make public. And once that's made public, it's setting a bit of a precedent in this area, and we can take it from there.

[17:25] But there's — there's been no real thorough investigation of Narconon by any government body because they tend — I don't know — they tend to leave drug rehabilitation alone because it's such a murky field with so many unknowns, and there's no real one-size-fits-all approach to drug rehabs. So what might work for some person won't work for the next six people who've got the almost identical drug history and do the exact same program. I think that's the biggest problem, but, you know, I would really like to see more government investigation of this aspect of fraud and, you know, especially the — the conflict between the Scientology materials being religious and the Narconon materials being secular, when they're exactly the same.

18:12 TOM SMITH: Now, Dave mentioned that, at Trois-Rivieres, Narconon did not have any licensed physicians or nurses on its staff. Paul, have you seen the same situation in Australia?

18:24 PAUL SCHOFIELD: The same situation exists in Australia. We had one licensed nurse at Narconon Melbourne. We had no — no medical personnel anywhere near Narconon Sydney. And in the other Narconons that I've supervised from a distance in Nepal and in Taiwan, they had no medical personnel whatsoever on staff. The registered nurse we had in Melbourne was actually in the course room and was very seldom used for any sort of medical advice, and he certainly wasn't on call, because he'd go home at the end of the day and he only worked Monday to Friday. So he was never really being used as a medical nurse, unless he was down doing a — a shift where the person was coming off drugs, where a person had newly come in and was coming off drugs. And then he might be down there with that one person or three people doing that as a — sort of as a nurse. But that was all.

19:22 TOM SMITH: Dave, you mentioned before, in — in a previous interview that I had with you that there was — you had witnessed some illicit drug use at Narconon premises.

19:32 DAVID LOVE: Yes.

19:33 TOM SMITH: Yeah —

19:32 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

19:34 TOM SMITH: Could you tell our listeners about that please?

19:36 DAVID LOVE: Well, there was — there was quite a package of drugs there, at Narconon. Most of it was confiscated from some of the patients that arrived there. And one might ask themself why would a person that's going for rehab bring in drugs? Well, a lot of the patients that went there were dragged in by their patients [sic], dropped off with not a penny in their pocket and they had — they didn't want to be there, but they were there. Some others were court-ordered, didn't want to be there. So, anyway, they had a lot of drugs there, and they used it at the end of the program, called a "reach and withdraw". They put them in front of a patient and the patient was supposed to reach for them, pick them up, and then put them back, and withdraw their hand and doing this over and over and over again.

[20:12] Well, that kind of backfired big-time when one of the patients got a hold of a bunch of it, crack cocaine, took it back to the dorm, and a bunch of them got high. But, when I was there, there was a considerable number of staff drinking a lot, using a lot of drugs. Even one registrar was doing a lot of cocaine while he was bringing in people. He ended up doing a repair over in Calgary at Narconon. And there was a staff complex where — a staff apartment building where a lot of — There was an apartment complex where a lot of staff members were living in about four or five different apartments. When I graduated, I lived there at a family member's place, one of the ethics officers, for about five days, and I witnessed quite a bit of overindulging in — in — in alcohol and whatnot.

[20:58] There were so many parties there, and whatnot, that one of the students who had graduated and then relapsed — he was there and they were having a — an alcohol and cocaine party, and there was guns at the apartment. One was passed over the balcony, and the fellow took the gun and then he killed himself. But Narconon executives were well aware that this person had suicidal problems, and it should have been addressed way beforehand.

[21:20] But yeah, there's — there's quite a bit of drug use in and around Narconon, that I was at.

21:26 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah, I also agree with that. At Narconon Sydney, just before I arrived there in 2002, there was actually a former student who would drive about 200 kilometers to the Narconon with a car-full of drugs to sell to the students. He used to come up every Thursday night, apparently, I was told, and they were — they were using drugs on the property —

21:49 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

21:49 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — constantly. This — This guy would turn up every Thursday night and sell them. There was, again, quite a bit of heavy drinking on part of the staff. A l— Quite a large proportion of the staff would revert to drugs.

22:01 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

22:01 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Some I've known who've gone back on drugs four or five times and then, you know, have gone back and done the Narconon program yet again. At Sydney, at one point, it was actually — the staff were taking the students as they were getting close to finishing their program, were taken out for drinks and, of course, they take them out for a celebratory drink when they'd actually finish the program, that usually wound up in being too much alcohol. That wasn't quite so bad at Melbourne, but there were drugs getting into Melbourne every now and again. People were bringing them in.

[22:31] Probably the funniest example of, just the attitude of the students, I went and protested with a couple of members of Anonymous at Narconon Melbourne. We pedaled our mountain bikes about six kilometers through rainforest to get there and stood on the other side of the fence and, you know, gave out leaflets and stuff. And one of the students sidled up to us and very quietly said, "You got any weed?"

22:55 DAVID LOVE: [laughs]

22:55 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Which cracked me up completely. It was just, like, "Yeah, you're in a rehab!" I said to him, "Mate, you're in a rehab! You're here to get off this stuff. You know, I'm not bringing weed up here. What're you on about?"

[23:04] But that — that's — that — that gives you an idea of — As Dave said, a lot of these people aren't there because they want to be there. They're there because their parents have decided that this is the program for them. The parents have been convinced or they've been court-ordered to go there, and they really don't want to give up drugs in the first place. So they'll do anything to get drugs in.

[23:23] I mean, I've seen some amazing ways where drugs have been gotten into a Narconon, like, you know, put them in a shampoo bottle and put them in a capsule —

23:31 DAVID LOVE: [gasps]

23:31 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — in the shampoo bottle and get them in through there. We had one guy who was in Melbourne, was on medically ordered steroids, and he was selling them to other students, who were then, of course, going to the gym and working out and ending up looking like a bunch of walnuts packed in a condom, you know. I mean, they were so muscular, and so overly muscular because they were shooting up this guy's steroids and working out in the gym. It's just like trading one addiction for another and — and this stuff was going on. It was very hard to police. It was very hard to catch because, basically, these people didn't want to be there. They didn't want to get off their drugs in the first place. But money had been paid. Very good money had been paid by their parents or their grandparents or whatever.

[24:14] And I can give you at least one instance where the person woke up in withdrawal and didn't have absolutely no idea where they were and was absolutely freaked out, because they'd never been anywhere like this before and they'd been basically unconscious for thirty-six hours and suddenly found themselves in a rehab that they hadn't agreed to be in. And that's — that's quite a common occurrence, not quite to that degree, but that's quite a common occurrence as, I'm sure, Dave will agree with that, that people at Narconon, they don't want to be there.

24:47 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

24:47 PAUL SCHOFIELD: They don't want to be giving up drugs.

24:48 TOM SMITH: So, usually, somebody's — the parents are footing the bill for this, or there's been some kind of — When you said a court order, Paul — The courts are actually ordering people, some people into Narconon?

25:00 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Well, the court will say, "You have to go to a rehab."

25:03 TOM SMITH: All right.

25:04 PAUL SCHOFIELD: You know.

25:04 TOM SMITH: Oh.

25:05 PAUL SCHOFIELD: But — So you've got the choice: either you do jail or you do a rehab. So, you know, if they find somewhere that Narconon — and Narconon's promoting or, you know, you just have to sit in a sauna, and you do this and we've got this wonderful grounds, and you've got pictures of good-looking women in bikinis in the sauna —

25:21 DAVID LOVE: [laughs]

25:21 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — and, you know, bicycle riding in rainforest or, you know, they're telling you that, "Oh, yeah, we've got horse rides up here," and all this sort of stuff, they you're going to go, "Well, the alternative being jail ..." It's a no-brainer. What're you going to take? Your going to take somewhere that's going to — four to six months, you've got your meals provided, you've got a lot more freedom. It's easier to get drugs in there than it is in jail and you certainly don't have to pay as much for it. It's — It's just a no-brainer. You'll take the rehab rather than the — the jail sentence because the — the court is going to try to give you a chance to rehabilitate yourself rather than put you in jail.

[25:59] And I've known Narconon staff ordered by senior executives to go to court hearings and present the person at the court hearing as being well on their way to being rehabilitated and "Could we please have them back at Narconon?" when the person's been an absolute mess of trouble and been trying to do drugs as much as possible. Yet the Narconon staff members turned up in court and perjured themselves in order to try to get this person back to Narconon.

26:24 TOM SMITH: Which equates with Narconon getting more money.

26:27 DAVID LOVE: Absolutely.

26:28 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Absolutely. Yeah.

26:29 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. And a lot of times, a — a person is charged with a serious crime, and their lawyer will say, "Go to rehab and I can get you off with no time." So they — what they do is they go to the, you know, go to a rehab — Narconon, many a times — and they'll complete the program, and then when they go to court, the lawyer can present this glowing program that he — he has succeeded in. And with the high success rate — And it looks very favorable to the court.

[26:56 ]And what Paul just mentioned about drugs coming in in a shampoo bottle, you know, that was amazing because that's exactly — exactly what happened at Narconon Trois-Rivieres. I was at — at the apartment when the phone call came in from the junior ethics officer to the senior ethics officer I was with. And they had — they knew some drugs was coming in, so they were checking the shampoo bottle, and the junior phoned the senior and says, "What — what should I do? I've got a shampoo bottle." And he said, "Just put a — a skewer in it and see if you can feel around in there." Well, the shampoo should have been dumped out because crack cocaine was in the shampoo bottle, and they didn't find it. But the senior ethics officer — I was with him — he was too darned drunk to go down and do it.

27:40 PAUL SCHOFIELD: [laughs]

27:40 DAVID LOVE: And so — yeah. Well, this person ended up dying.

27:44 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Oh, dear.

27:45 DAVID LOVE: They got the crack cocaine, they took it back to the dorms, and they got high. And this lady did not finish the program, and she died about four weeks ago of an overdose. She was about two weeks away from finishing the program.

[27:58] So this is where you have unprofessional staff who are high or drunk, not doing their job when they're supposed to do their job. And this is — this is what happened. And it's very, very sad. I mean there's — there's two people — well, three now, I know of, died. And — and they may have had a far better chance if they had've been trained professional staff. I mean, many, many times, this staff complex, you know, this complex where the staff were living, I mean, you know, students were brought back there for — for sexual encounters. It's just — on the weekend — it was just ridiculous. In fact, the f— the person who shot himself in the head and committed suicide, he did have an affair with the legal liaison and they had a child together, so now you've got a little tiny boy, about five or six years old, with no daddy. Very, very sad.

28:43 TOM SMITH: Very tragic. We need to take a break for station identification. Is that all right?

28:48 DAVID LOVE: Absolutely.

28:48 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah.

28:49 TOM SMITH: For our listeners, we'll be back after this break. Please stay with us.

29:32 Announcer: hawkradio.com, student radio for Tampa Bay and the voice of Hillsborough Community College, streaming on the web 24/7.

30:02 TOM SMITH: You're listening to "The Edge". Our guests today are David Love and Paul Schofield. We're discussing Narconon. It's a Scientology front group which is involved in recruitment of drug addicts into Scientology, using Scientology methods. We've been discussing, this first half-hour, what the real success rate is of Narconon, the various illegal activities going on by the Narconon clients on the premises, the lack of medical oversight on the premises.

[30:39] I wanted to ask you, Paul and Dave, have you any knowledge of concealment of any criminal activities by Narconon? Because you did mention — both of you did mention you — you'd seen some illicit things going on there. Was there actually concealment of those afterwards? I mean, did anybody there make a police report or go to a prosecutor? Can — can you tell our listeners about that?

31:08 PAUL SCHOFIELD: There's pretty much a code of silence on stuff like that. I mean, when it was found out that this former student was turning up and selling drugs, there was nothing done. There was no reports made. There were two other students who were basically running the place. At the time though, they were standing over the other students and of the staff and, allegedly, there was a rape occurred. At that point some girl turned up and she was raped the first night she was there and she left and never came back again.

[31:37] Now, none of this was ever reported to the police. Student violence towards other students was never reported to the police. It's a — a hangover from Scientology culture of "You don't use anything outside of your actual Scientology group because we have the technology, supposedly, which handles everything." So if you just report this to the police, then the person goes to a psychiatrist and, well, psychiatrists are the sworn enemies of Scientology, so they go to a psychiatrist, they're as good as dead. That's the attitude, and that attitude filters into Narconon very, very strongly that, you know, psychiatry is an absolute no-no. "Yes, you may have been to see a psychiatrist, but it was an absolute waste of time. We can handle all your mental problems as well as your drug dependency problems here. But stay away from psychiatrists and psychologists."

[32:30] So there's been an awful lot of things that I look at now that I think, you know, that should have been reported to the police. But the whole culture within a Narconon is virtually identical to the culture within a Church of Scientology, where you do not report that. And if somebody wants to report it, as Dave has given some examples there, the person is persuaded not to go to the authorities, but to try to handle it in-house. "And yes, we'll fix it all up. Don't make waves. We'll make sure it's all sorted out for you." Rather than, "Okay, well, I just got assaulted or I got sexually assaulted. I'm making a police report." "Yes, absolutely, we'll back you up." That never happened. It's like, "Keep outside authorities right away from Narconon, because what happens in Narconon stays in Narconon. We'll fix everything up here."

[33:21] That's the attitude that's pushed down to the students. The staff, even the non-Scientology staff, find themselves agreeing with that attitude, because you're living and working in a very close community, and you just get sucked into it and you really get locked into the mindset. And Narconon's basically just another cult, in that degree. I think Dave would agree with that, where what goes on in Narconon is often completely distanced from the outside world and the real world, for that matter.

33:50 TOM SMITH: It sounds to me more like the mafia doctrine of omerta, which is — it's a Sicilian dialect of Italian word for just "silence". And if you were to tell — go to the authorities and tell, they would retaliate against you for doing that. And I understand they do that in Scientology. It's called "fair game".

34:12 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah. It's — it's not — it's not quite to that extent in Narconon, but it's just the social pressure to shut up and get through your program. And that's the pressure that every student is put under. It's just a matter of, "Look, just shut up and get through your program. You're complaining because your program isn't going well, and it's not going well because you're doing something wrong. So let's find out what you're doing something wrong and get you back on your program. And all these bad things that are happening to you will go away."

[34:42] That's pretty much the attitude. And it — it is very similar to a mafia system, but I've not heard of any — not being taken quite to the extreme of the mafia. But, yeah.

34:56 TOM SMITH: They don't take anybody and put them in concrete or give them neckties or anything.

35:01 PAUL SCHOFIELD: No.

35:01 TOM SMITH: Okay.

35:02 DAVID LOVE: Not that we know of, anyway.

35:04 TOM SMITH: [laughing] Okay.

35:05 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah.

35:05 TOM SMITH: Good point.

35:06 PAUL SCHOFIELD: It may happen somewhere but it — it hasn't happened, as far as I know in Australia, you know, and Dave can probably say that it hasn't happened in Canada.

35:15 DAVID LOVE: No. I think they would like to put somebody in cement — namely me —

35:17 PAUL SCHOFIELD: [laughs]

35:18 DAVID LOVE: — but they haven't yet.

35:21 TOM SMITH: All right. Paul, could you tell our listeners what is going on in Australia in regards Scientology and its front groups?

35:30 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Well, there's quite a lot happening here. There's been a lot of media exposure and, actually, today, there's a court hearing for the head of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a Scientology front group. It's actually an anti-psychiatry hate group. She has been arrested and charged and had to turn her passport in for allegedly counseling an eleven-year-old girl not to tell the authorities that her stepfather had been sexually molesting her for the last three years. Now, this allegedly happened many years ago, back in the eighties, and the victim and her mother have both stepped forward in the last year and filed charges. This is a hearing basically to determine if there is a case to answer and, if the judge so decides, then a trial — a preliminary trial date is set, and the whole wheels of justice go on from there.

[36:34] And if anybody is familiar with Senator Nick Xenophon's speech to the Australian Senate about, it was in November 2009, he mentioned letters from several of us detailing cases of pedophilia. This case with Jan Eastgate was one of those. Carmel Underwood had mentioned that, although not by name in her letter, and I detailed another six ongoing cases of pedophilia that the church, I believed, had covered up. And I've subsequently spent the better part of a day giving evidence to some members of the New South Wales child sex crimes squads about these, further giving them information. As far as I know, those particular investigations are ongoing. And I've since found information about other cases of pedophilia cover-up within the church in Sydney. And I don't think that there are more pedophiles in Scientology per head of population than anywhere else, but it certainly seems to me to be — Again it's almost this law of omerta, where, you know, you keep quiet and you keep everything in house. You don't alert the authorities about stuff like this because Scientology will handle it. And I'm hoping that this case of Jan Eastgate brings out more instances of this. There are people that I know of who have suffered this, and I would really like to see justice done in this area.

38:02 TOM SMITH: Well, I think it's interesting. I — I know of a pedophilia case in Clearwater, here, with Anthony Strawn, who, basically, raped two or three of his stepdaughters. And I know that Scientology tried, in this area here, tried to, in Clearwater, tried to get his wife at the time — they're divorced now — his wife at the time to cover that up. And I would agree with you, it's probably no higher in Scientology than it is other places, but I know that the judicial system used these people as usually being not rehabilitatable. They're not reformable. There's a term used for such people. It's called "psychopathy". And that's why they're usually — Well, in the United States, anyway, they get classified as sex offenders, pedophiles, and they are monitored for most of their lives or their entire lives. So why they don't report these very serious crimes, which can cause great damage, psychological damage to the — the affected children, it's pretty amazing, but they — I think the Scientology organization's convinced that they can "handle" that with the children and, in reality, it can take many years for children to recover from this intensive abuse. They end up with a form of — a very severe form of post-traumatic stress disorder, and that can take a long time, sometimes, for them to come out of that trauma. Comments?

39:30 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Well, I — I totally agree with the fact that it takes a long time, because — I don't know whether Dave experienced this in Canada — but at Narconon Sydney and, to a lesser degree, at Narconon Melbourne, there would be victims of child sex abuse who would turn up heavily dependent on drugs, and they would trace their getting dependent on drugs, having that drug dependency problem, back to having been abused sexually as a child, you know —

39:58 DAVID LOVE: That's right.

39:58 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — from the age of five or the age of eight.

40:01 DAVID LOVE: That's right.

40:01 PAUL SCHOFIELD: So it's not — it's not an easy thing for anybody to get around, in my experience. And, yeah, it's just — Yeah, I'm deeply sorry that it took me getting out of Scientology to actually realize the magnitude of these crimes, but I can't — I can't comment too much on what I've said, but if anybody really wants to — to have more information on — on my allegations, they can find those letters that Senator Xenophon tabled in the Australian Parliament, and you can have a look through the allegations that I made there about what — what I believed was happening in Scientology.

40:35 TOM SMITH: Dave, has the Canadian federal government or the Quebec provincial government taken any actions against Narconon?

41:42 DAVID LOVE: Uh, investigations. I've filed a formal complaint with the Quebec Ministry of Health and Social Services, the Canada Competition Bureau — for the fraud and misrepresentation. I've filed two complaints with the College of Physicians. I've filed a complaint with the Labor Relations, and I filed a complaint — two complaints with the Human Rights Commission. And I also have visited Senator Céline [Hervieux-]Payette in her office in — in — in Ottawa, and spoke to her aides and advisors, and dropped off a thousand pages of documents and evidence. We hope we're going to be an inquiry and have a — have Narconon's charitable status revoked and, hopefully, we're going to have some more serious investigations. But they have sent out investigators to investigate the allegations.

[41:27] One of the formal complaints, called "Exploitation of a handicap", because anybody who's in a Quebec rehab facility is classed as a handicap, because they are an alcoholic or drug addict. The Quebec Human Rights Commission has proceeded with one case in the past, with nearly identical circumstances with the exploitation at Narconon Trois-Rivieres, and the company was found guilty and it was a huge, huge award and a big case.

[42:45] So they — they have investigated. We have heard back from Narconon, responding to the complaint. It was a two-page response, and I rebutted their response with about nineteen pages more —

42:09 PAUL SCHOFIELD: [laughs]

42:09 DAVID LOVE: — of more evidence and — and — and documents. And I — I really believe they're going to be found guilty on this. And it's a very, very serious offense indeed. The Competition Bureau — I'm sending another one off to them about conspiracy to commit fraud and mis— misrepresentation with the success rate. And I'm in the draft form right now of filing a complaint with the Canada justice system and Revenue Canada.

42:33 TOM SMITH: Wasn't Scientology — the Scientology organization in Canada found guilty of a felony, a breach of the public trust some years ago?

42:43 DAVID LOVE: Yes. There was one hundred police officers jumped out of three buses in Toronto and raided the Church of Scientology. And I think I — I'm not sure on the number, but I think there was about six hundred boxes of documents taken. That followed an FBI investigation which was called "Snow White" — "Operation Snow White" in the United States. And, anyway, yes, they were found guilty. So, right now, in Canada, Scientology is a convicted criminal organization, and they have been denied charitable status in Canada, and not recognized as a religion.

[43:17] In Quebec, they have tax status for not paying tax on their church buildings. I don't think that's going to last much longer, not with Anonymous and what I'm doing to help to have it — to have it revoked. Senator Céline [Hervieux-]Payette is always — also trying to have that tax status revoked because, as she said, you know, it — it's exploitation and extortion of people of little means, as a business — it's not a church, as far as she is concerned, as I — I'm concerned too.

43:47 TOM SMITH: Yeah. And that's pro— You're talking about property tax, real — real property tax.

43:51 DAVID LOVE: Yes. They — They've got a tax exemption for that in Quebec. Okay? So we're going to try and have that removed. And, also, all the Narconons in Canada, we're going to — we're going to proceed with having their charitable tax status removed too and revoked. Because we want a public means test, just like Senator and Paul are working on in Australia. I'm following their — their — their pattern, and it's adding a few of my own docs and evidence, and I think we'll have it done, because once the Human Rights Commission gets finished with them, exploitation of a handicap, and the other investigation that's going on, I think they're going to be in dire straits pretty soon.

44:27 PAUL SCHOFIELD: [laughs]

44:28 TOM SMITH: Yeah. Now, we're talking financial type things here, fraud and whatnot. What about the actual cost and — and harm done to these patients, or clients, whatever you want to call them? Has that been addressed? Or will — do — or will it be addressed?

44:45 DAVID LOVE: Yes. The Human Rights Commission is investigating very heavily right now for exploitation of a handicap, of all the patients that were at Narconon. And I have several hundred statements from these patients that I've forwarded to the Human Rights Commission. Some are willing to step forward and testify. Others are willing to begin their own lawsuits. I mean, Moxon's going to be a very busy Scientology lawyer by the time we get finished with him.

45:07 TOM SMITH: Yeah. And just for our listeners, Kendrick Moxon is a — an attorney who's been associated with Scientology since the 1970s. I — I think — I believe early 1970s, and he was involved with the Operation Snow White, which was the — certainly, I think, the only infiltration, perhaps the largest or the only infiltration of the United States government by an organization calling itself a religion.

45:33 DAVID LOVE: That's right. Yeah. And the — the exploitation of a handicap case that the Human Rights Commission won here, in a care facility — I think the award was over — over 2.8 million dollars to the patients that were there. So the — the patients — I'm not looking for anything — but I think a lot of the patients are going to end up with an award out of this.

45:52 TOM SMITH: Well, they should get some compensation for the harm done to them and the — the time that they put into it, which was wasted.

45:59 DAVID LOVE: It was wasted. For twenty-three thousand dollars, they were extremely exploited. I saw — I spoke to the lawyers at the Human Rights Commission and the first word — the first time I ever heard of exploitation of a handicap, it came from their mouth. And they said it shouldn't just be Narconon that's gone after, it should be the whole organization. So I did name — I named Narconon Trois-Rivieres, Narconon Canada, Narconon International, the Church of Scientology in Montreal, I named the Church of Scientology in California, and I named David Miscavige, the head of Scientology, as being responsible and liable for all this exploitation.

46:33 TOM SMITH: Yeah. And the front groups are connected with the so-called "church" itself through — through the Office of Special Affairs.

46:40 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. They're not only connected, they're one and the same. One hundred per cent. Narconon is one hundred per cent Scientology. There is absolutely no difference.

46:49 TOM SMITH: Okay. Is that — Paul, is that your experience?

46:51 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Yeah. I've been to Narconon International in Los Angeles twice. I was flown up there by them for sort of conferences and, you know, "This is what you need to do for your new job, Paul." And —

47:06 DAVID LOVE: [laughs]

47:06 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Across the road was the Sea Org, the Scientology Sea Organization, which is the management organization of Scientology, and there is a section of that called "Association for Better Living and Education". Now, the corporate structure for groups like Narconon within the umbrella of Scientology is that they don't show a direct corporate link with Scientology, but they show church offices, senior church offices, as a consultant for Narconon. Now, there was a consultant for Narconon Int who was a high-ranking officer within Scientology International within the Association for Better Living and Education, who subsequently, within a few months of me being there, was made the head of the Association for Better Living and Education for Nar— for Scientology International. And the senior executives from Narconon International would go over and speak to him, and he would basically be giving them orders on exactly what to do. Now, I had a — a similar thing when I was running the Narconon Australasian area, where I had a senior executive from the church management in Sydney would be strongly advising me on what to do, because I would — I was saying, "Look, Narconon's secular. You can't order me." And she would be strongly advising me on what to do. And Narconon International's basically telling me to go along with whatever she was saying.

[48:42] And the other point here is that ten per cent of all monies that go to Narconons or to any other Scientology front groups are taken for management expenses. Now, three per cent goes immediately to Scientology management, another four per cent goes to Narconon International, and three per cent goes to the local management of Narconon. So in my case, since I was running Australasia, I was supposed to be getting three per cent of all the money that comes in, four per cent was going to Narconon International, three per cent was going directly to Scientology. Now, you add that to the copyrights on all the materials, because the copyrights for all these materials are owned by the Church of Scientology, and they can charge whatever price they want to for the Narconons. Because it's a complete monopoly.

[49:37] So they're getting copyrights back. They're getting three per cent, plus they're getting more from Narconon International. And if they decide that the Narconon is not following L. Ron Hubbard's teachings exactly, they will send consultants to that who are senior church management figures —

49:58 DAVID LOVE: Yep.

49:58 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — for the area

49:58 DAVID LOVE: Yeah.

49:58 PAUL SCHOFIELD: And the Narconon will have to pay consultancy fees which are quite exorbitant, as well as the travel and living expenses of those consultants and —

50:10 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. That's right.

50:10 PAUL SCHOFIELD: — and be actually told by the consultants exactly the way they should be running that Narconon. Now, there was a senior Sea Org officer went to Narconon Melbourne late 2009 or late 2008 and was there for over two months, from the reports that I heard, and she was directly telling the executive director exactly what to do on a day-to-day basis. So there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Narconon and the other front groups are totally run by Scientology and by Scientology management. And we're in the process of trying to put together a very strong case, backed up by Scientology's own documentation on this, here in Australia, if we can do that in order to — get this connection very well known.

51:04 TOM SMITH: Well, there's a parallel system in the Scientology organization itself, where they send what they call "missionaires" into an organization, and they bill them thousands and thousands — tens of thousands of dollars, the same kind of thing. In Narconon, they call it a "consultant" and in Scientology they call it a "missionaire". They're just changing the name. They're — The same operating basis, the exact same kind of policy. They're — They're just changing the name. Right?

51:29 DAVID LOVE: That's right.

51:29 PAUL SCHOFIELD: Oh, absolutely.

51:31 TOM SMITH: Okay.

53:31 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. That's right. When — When I was at Narconon Trois-Rivieres, Narconon Canada was sent in on a mission. There was four staff members. Brad Melnychuk was there for a — a lengthy time. And Narconon International flew up to do a mission. And there was staff there from the Church of Scientology in Montreal. And my figure that I got from one of the executives of Narconon Canada was they were paid three hundred and fifty dollars, each person. There was four from Narconon Canada, two from Narconon International, Brad Melnychuk, people from the Church of Scientology and — But that's a lot of money, plus they had to pay their living expenses, the airfare and all this. And so these people are making a lot of money. Every one of them was a Scientologist. Well, where does Scientologists spend a lot of their money? On auditing, on the Freewinds. Scientology, the church, gets it back. Out of the six hundred thousand dollars that Narconon had in their — their bank, they didn't have much left by the time I left. And, you know, they brought in 15.8 million dollars in the few years that they were in operation. That's a lot of money.

52:37 TOM SMITH: Gentlemen, we are running short of time. I want to thank you both for being guests today on "The Edge".

52:44 PAUL SCHOFIELD: It's been a pleasure.

52:45 DAVID LOVE: It has really been a pleasure, Tom. You always have a very good show. It's been a pleasure being on. And thank you for having us both. I think it was a very good informative show. Thank you very much.

52:55 TOM SMITH: Our guests today have been David Love and Paul Schofield, who have extensive experience with Narconon in Canada and Australia, respectively. I hope that we recognize more accurately in the future Scientology's "songs of desperation".

[53:56] I'm Tom Smith, the producer and host of "The Edge". We'll be back again next week with another interesting guest. Thanks for listening.

54:06 [Music: "Sweet Disposition", performed by The Temper Trap]

57:23 [End of recording]
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Great interview! Thanks for posting! :thumbsup:

Thanks David and Scooter! :yes:

Some great points were made over the course of this interview.
 

Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
mnql1,..., thank you so much for posting this for me. AND thank you to Anonymous, for making all the Expose over the past 17 months possible.:happydance::happydance::happydance:
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I've read quite a lot about Narconon over the years, and it is
consistent with Paul and Davids comments. In particular I know two
Freezoners who when in CO$ were auditors in a Narconon, and they
commented on even lower success rates. These were around 10%
or possibly less, and they were of the opinion that few rehab methods did better. Don't know if thats true. Also they commented that most
or many were taking the easy option as opposed to jail time, and
didn't really want to be there.

However I consider the purif and TRs and objectives to be very beneficial, having done them myself.

There are some obvious areas where the Narconon programs can be impropved. First monitoring of liver function before and during the purif, in particular as street drug addicts could have compromised livers. Is this done in Narconon?

The other is that when an expensive program like this is offered,
there should be adequate medical supervision. Looks like they should be senior to those C/Sing the progress through the program.

Also there should be sufficient security that no drugs are able to be gotten by the student/patients.

I believe the state pays Narconon for court ordered entrants to the program, that so?

Ideally such a program should be run by medical/nursing organisations, and for court ordered entrants I'd guess a locked down facility to stop further inflow of drugs.

Perhaps those court ordered who violate standards, be sent to jail, and told that they must show good behavior if they wished to return to the program.

Anyone know of other rehabs courts send people to and how they do?
 

Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
I've read quite a lot about Narconon over the years, and it is
consistent with Paul and Davids comments. In particular I know two
Freezoners who when in CO$ were auditors in a Narconon, and they
commented on even lower success rates. These were around 10%
or possibly less, and they were of the opinion that few rehab methods did better. Don't know if thats true. Also they commented that most
or many were taking the easy option as opposed to jail time, and
didn't really want to be there.

However I consider the purif and TRs and objectives to be very beneficial, having done them myself.

There are some obvious areas where the Narconon programs can be impropved. First monitoring of liver function before and during the purif, in particular as street drug addicts could have compromised livers. Is this done in Narconon?

The other is that when an expensive program like this is offered,
there should be adequate medical supervision. Looks like they should be senior to those C/Sing the progress through the program.

Also there should be sufficient security that no drugs are able to be gotten by the student/patients.

I believe the state pays Narconon for court ordered entrants to the program, that so?

Ideally such a program should be run by medical/nursing organisations, and for court ordered entrants I'd guess a locked down facility to stop further inflow of drugs.

Perhaps those court ordered who violate standards, be sent to jail, and told that they must show good behavior if they wished to return to the program.

Anyone know of other rehabs courts send people to and how they do?

Thank you for this post; helps me examine my bias. There is no one rehab fits all. Mostly, it is in the hands of the individual's determination to change. Not only have I been a patient in several rehabs, but I also owned and operated one for two years in British Columbia.

The problem and dangers with Narconon, is that they are not equipped or trained to handle medical emergencies, which places the patient's life in danger of death and harm. There is no monitoring of patient liver enzyme levels during sauna, and this can be up to two months and up to 5000mg of niacin. When a patient arrives in withdrawal, they do not see a cos doctor until after they withdraw from drugs or alcohol. Therein lies a grave danger.

The patient is in the hands of people who examine, assess, diagnose, prescibe, and treat patients who are extremely ill and in need of professional, medical care. The only training the withdrawal staff have, is from a cos course at Narconon and a certificate printed off. There is NO drug or alcohol councelling provided or offered to help patients cope with past trauma. NONE! There is no half-way house or after care.

Most of the patients return to their same past, drug indsted environment and relapse within hours or days; and some die. As many government and health authorities have stated; the NN Program has very little, if anything whatsoever, to offer the suffering addict. Yes, there is a small percentage that remain drug free, but these would have been a succuss at any Rehab. Their time away from drugs and their will to stop, was their life saver:)
 
Last edited:

Veda

Sponsor
The front group Narconon is called, by Scientology, "The Bridge to the Bridge (to Xenu)."

It doesn't use that description when talking to "wogs" or "raw meat," but that's how it describes Narconon to the Scientology membership.

Devious.

Probably the last thing a person with an addiction problem needs is to be led into the bizarro world of L. Ron Hubbard through devious means.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Thank you for this post; helps me examine my bias. There is no one rehab fits all. Mostly, it is in the hands of the individual's determination to change. Not only have I been a patient in several rehabs, but I also owned and operated one for two years in British Columbia. The problem and dangers with Narconon, is that they are not equipped or trained to handle medical emergencies, which places the patient's life in danger of death and harm. There is no monitoring of patient liver enzyme levels during sauna, and this can be up to two months and up to 5000mg of niacin. When a patient arrives in withdrawal, they do not see a cos doctor until after they withdraw from drugs or alcohol. Therein lies a grave danger. The patient is in the hands of people who examine, assess, diagnose, prescibe, and treat patients who are extremely ill and in need of professional, medical care. The only training the withdrawal staff have, is from a cos course at Narconon and a certificate printed off. There is NO drug or alcohol councelling provided or offered to help patients cope with past trauma. NONE! There is no half-way house or after care. Most of the patients return to their same past, drug indsted environment and relapse within hours or days; and some die. As many government and health authorities have stated; the NN Program has very little, if anything whatsoever, to offer the suffering addict. Yes, there is a small percentage that remain drug free, but these would have been a succuss at any Rehab. Their time away from drugs and their will to stop, was their life saver:)

Interesting!

Someone doing purif and TRs and objectives in scientology are a very different public to those going to Narconon.

The first group would mostly not be an addict, though some might be, but they all would be very motivated to do the various programs, and the aim is not nessesarily to handle addiction, but to cleanse the body and then commence spiritual gain with TRs objectives and above.

The latter group going to Narconon are several different publics it seems. Criminals who are mostly not interested in rehab at all, drug addicts who have drifted into criminality, and then may also not want rehab, and people placed there by families who want their children
to be rehabbed, and probably most of these want rehab to varying degrees.

My nephew was put in a mental hospital several times for mariuana
induced psychosis. The family went through hell, but his interest in martial arts, Tai Chi, led him to a recovery path and he's recently completed B.Sc and a PH.D.

There are clearly medical problems that are widely varying. Some people should be in a medical withdrawal programme before starting a narconon program. Are their such things?

I gather most rehab programs don't do better than 10% success.
What are the actual costs per person when there is adequate medical support and facilities for rehab?

Anyway congrats on your excellent work to make the problems known and getting them addressed. :)

Looks like Narconon are going to have lots of trouble ahead and
maybe legislated against. This would be yet another monstrous COS fuck up of something that is usefull.

Also note some monies collected for narconon, went uplines and
not to narconon. From information personally given to me by someone involved.
 

Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
Interesting!

Someone doing purif and TRs and objectives in scientology are a very different public to those going to Narconon.

The first group would mostly not be an addict, though some might be, but they all would be very motivated to do the various programs, and the aim is not nessesarily to handle addiction, but to cleanse the body and then commence spiritual gain with TRs objectives and above.

The latter group going to Narconon are several different publics it seems. Criminals who are mostly not interested in rehab at all, drug addicts who have drifted into criminality, and then may also not want rehab, and people placed there by families who want their children
to be rehabbed, and probably most of these want rehab to varying degrees.

My nephew was put in a mental hospital several times for mariuana
induced psychosis. The family went through hell, but his interest in martial arts, Tai Chi, led him to a recovery path and he's recently completed B.Sc and a PH.D.

There are clearly medical problems that are widely varying. Some people should be in a medical withdrawal programme before starting a narconon program. Are their such things?

I gather most rehab programs don't do better than 10% success.
What are the actual costs per person when there is adequate medical support and facilities for rehab?

Anyway congrats on your excellent work to make the problems known and getting them addressed. :)

Looks like Narconon are going to have lots of trouble ahead and
maybe legislated against. This would be yet another monstrous COS fuck up of something that is usefull.

Also note some monies collected for narconon, went uplines and
not to narconon. From information personally given to me by someone involved.

Yes, the two are different for sure, and some in both groups may have similar underlying medical conditions. Once again, liver not being monitored. A Quebec lady recently died after doing the cos purif. With her liver condition, she should not have taken niacin. Will post video once I'm at home.

We've really only scratched the surface in exposing the risks and abuses at Narconon. Upcoming legal litigation prevents me from posting all. I agree, the cos is in for some huge, expensive battles for quite some time in Canada and other coutries.

I think the important issue is protecting the health and safety of the public; which in many cases, are vulnerable and easily fall prey to unscupulous Reg's who earn 10% off the top of each new NN Intake. Each new one brings in between $23,000.00 and $28,000.00. Some weeks, there are several new intakes at NN Trois-Rivieres. It will hold up to 100! There were 76 when I was there. About 3 grand was marked for the cos bi-weekly.

It's a big cash cow that costs the Canadian Government Healtih Care System a lot of money. Organ damage to addicts who enter the Sauna with no medical monitoring, will without a doubt, cost Canada taxpayers huge sums. The NN patients who are rushed to hospital emergency; then admitted to a ward for days of care, also costs big dollars.
 
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Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
=Terril park;590844]Interesting!

Someone doing purif and TRs and objectives in scientology are a very different public to those going to Narconon.

The first group would mostly not be an addict, though some might be, but they all would be very motivated to do the various programs, and the aim is not nessesarily to handle addiction, but to cleanse the body and then commence spiritual gain with TRs objectives and above.

The latter group going to Narconon are several different publics it seems. Criminals who are mostly not interested in rehab at all, drug addicts who have drifted into criminality, and then may also not want rehab, and people placed there by families who want their children
to be rehabbed, and probably most of these want rehab to varying degrees.

My nephew was put in a mental hospital several times for mariuana
induced psychosis. The family went through hell, but his interest in martial arts, Tai Chi, led him to a recovery path and he's recently completed B.Sc and a PH.D.

There are clearly medical problems that are widely varying. Some people should be in a medical withdrawal programme before starting a narconon program. Are their such things?

I gather most rehab programs don't do better than 10% success.
What are the actual costs per person when there is adequate medical support and facilities for rehab?

Anyway congrats on your excellent work to make the problems known and getting them addressed. :)

Looks like Narconon are going to have lots of trouble ahead and
maybe legislated against. This would be yet another monstrous COS fuck up of something that is usefull.

Also note some monies collected for narconon, went uplines and
not to narconon. From information personally given to me by someone involved.[/
Recent Intell in from Narconon Trois-Rivieres:
On the wall in the comm center was a list of where the money goes each week. It was interesting to figure out the initials for each payment. COS, was of course on the sheet. Around 3 grand bi-weekly. ".....the 2 sisters and Marie-chantal actually had L Rons pic on the wall and we were expected to stand and say a chant as we faced it. Maybe when this fight is over you can come and fight the xxxxxxx government. The xxxxxxx are really doing a number here........About 35 students I think. The womans dorm is full at 13, thats a lot of women.

Looks like Andre Ahern is back at NN TR.
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/a/andre-ahern.html
.
 
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Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
This is one of the REAL DANGERS at Narconons. It's something I neglected to include in the College of Physicians Complaint for Malpractice and Practicing Medicine Without a Licence. I will now forward to them.

It's their COS Policy of "Whatever Turns It On, Will Turn It Off"

So, if a Narconon Patient starts to become ill, the Patient is told to, "Go Back In The Box!!!"[/B]

12:31 DAVID LOVE: Yeah. Yeah. We got to remember that when he — when Hubbard wrote all this stuff back in the fifties — and this is the problem with Scientology, I see in many cases — is that he wrote it back then and, of course, you — nothing can be changed. Nobody can change anything. What he said was godsend. So as science — science and health evolved, he didn't change. I mean, he knew very little about what he was doing back then and now it's scientific proof that we've got — that this does cause damage. Of course, they're not going to change it.

13:43 PAUL SCHOFIELD: So it's — it's not just a matter of — "Oh, my goodness! This stuff actually can be toxic." It's a matter of the people, quote-unquote, "trained" to do — to deliver this to the poor students, either in a Church of Scientology or at Narconon or anywhere else they're doing it, will look at these symptoms of medical problems and simply put them down to being something which the niacin has triggered. And the cure for this is to continue the dose of niacin until these symptoms disappear. So there is that —
 

Terril park

Sponsor
This is one of the REAL DANGERS at Narconons. It's something I neglected to include in the College of Physicians Complaint for Malpractice and Practicing Medicine Without a Licence. I will now forward to them.

It's their COS Policy of "Whatever Turns It On, Will Turn It Off"

So, if a Narconon Patient starts to become ill, the Patient is told to, "Go Back In The Box!!!"[/B]


For your average beginning scientologist and non addict the purif is excellent.

Even then the monitoring of the liver should be essential.

Then:-

"Whatever Turns It On, Will Turn It Off"

This was originally stated to scn councelling and IMO is valid.
Plain old councelling.

However to extrapolate that to situations requiring medical attention
is fucked up robotic stupidity. Wish I could off the cuff find a more
intense repudiation.

Like if one is starving to death the solution is "the way out is the way through". No more food! Lol!

Maybe I succeeded?
 

Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
For your average beginning scientologist and non addict the purif is excellent.

Even then the monitoring of the liver should be essential.

Then:-

"Whatever Turns It On, Will Turn It Off"

This was originally stated to scn councelling and IMO is valid.
Plain old councelling.

However to extrapolate that to situations requiring medical attention
is fucked up robotic stupidity. Wish I could off the cuff find a more
intense repudiation.

Like if one is starving to death the solution is "the way out is the way through". No more food! Lol!

Maybe I succeeded?
I Love it:) ,..., at work, on cell; will comment further when home. Right now I have hunger pains, so I'm going to be "out tech" and eat some food:)
2j17skg.jpg
 
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Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
For your average beginning scientologist and non addict the purif is excellent.

Even then the monitoring of the liver should be essential.

Then:-

"Whatever Turns It On, Will Turn It Off"

This was originally stated to scn councelling and IMO is valid.
Plain old councelling.

However to extrapolate that to situations requiring medical attention
is fucked up robotic stupidity. Wish I could off the cuff find a more
intense repudiation.

Like if one is starving to death the solution is "the way out is the way through". No more food! Lol!

Maybe I succeeded?

"What Turns It On, Will Turn It Off?"

I tried it last night; it doesn't work. Took some Viagra early in the evening, then took some more a little later to "Turn It Off",..., trust me, it didn't work,..., LOL:eyeroll:
 

Intelligence

Silver Meritorious Patron
You should have ordered hot and cold running girlfriends. :)

LOL,...,I'm sorry to say, I don't have a girlfriend right now. I'm not sure if it
would be fair to have one right now. I dated a beautiful Irish Lassy for one day in
Old Montreal; went for lunch etc. But I had to let any further dates go by the wayside.

Right now, I am simply too absorbed it what I'm doing. Too many 18 hour days; not enough sleep; and no time left over.

Sometimes I cry out to the Heavens,..., why me!? The answer comes to me quickly.

"Because you can....."

Perhaps one day:happydance::happydance::happydance:

.
 
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