David's in Charge but not in Control, Yes?

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Impractical? How so? COS and Hubbard modus operandi was to disperse SCN all over the globe. Go to sea if needed. If DM wanted money, he'd play the stock market with what little funds the COS has. A friend of mine tripled his fund in 30 days last month. Money grows on trees for anyone who craves it and with half a brain.

Would DM move out of the US? Could he and if so, where? Where would he find it easier to run the show than where he is? Where his connections are, where his power has been established. Does he speak another language? Has he made connections he can count on across the border? Go to sea? Cut all his direct comm lines, including Cruise, and set an example of running? Plus he doesn't have a background in ships, which Hubbard did so someone else would know what was going on better than he did. Make every action of his observable? Do not disregard PMS, especially the S. Something is going on there. He CANNOT go anywhere. He is likely hanging on by a thread, by the powers who want the money he gives to them yet who he must fear because they can bring him down if he doesn't deliver. "Money grows on trees". Man, be my guest to climb and pick all you can.
 
Last edited:

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mojo:

I misread what you wrote.

It is very easy to take over a huge international conglomerate.

There is always a central control point - usually it is some kind of holding company or trust.

Then there is a sequence of Corporate or Trust divisions - often the use of law firms to act as agents for the off-shore divisions and corps.

There is one person who was part of the Corporate sort out that knows much of this. He was kind enough to clear up many questions I had.

He posts to this list occasionally - he may answer these questions.

Alan
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
CST?

Has anyone tried to interview the CST directors? That IRS guy and co? They have total power over COS right? They could legally shut down COS?
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Has anyone tried to interview the CST directors? That IRS guy and co? They have total power over COS right? They could legally shut down COS?

I don't know what your point is, PMD. However, any group can be attacked, and if enough force is used, they can be shut down. Most large groups, companies, religions, have connections within the powers that be in order to short-circuit those attacks. They use money, jobs, influence, blackmail, all the way up to murder depending on the stakes, to get it done. Where multi-millions of dollars are involved there will be attention by outside forces. One person has to have a web of support in order to survive. If DM had only fearful subordinates he couldn't make it. There are people keeping the boat afloat, behind the scenes.
 
Last edited:

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't know what your point is, PMD. However, any group can be attacked, and if enough force is used, they can be shut down. Most large groups, companies, religions, have connections within the powers that be in order to short-circuit those attacks. They use money, jobs, influence, blackmail, all the way up to murder depending on the stakes, to get it done. Where multi-millions of dollars are involved there will be attention by outside forces. One person has to have a web of support in order to survive. If DM had only fearful subordinates he couldn't make it. There are people keeping the boat afloat, behind the scenes.

Yeah well conspiracy theories are pretty but I like facts. Got any? DM is there because noone has the balls to take his place. Just like Capone sold booze until ONE man stopped him. It only takes one person.
 

Björkist

Silver Meritorious Patron
I tend to agree...just as with certain governments, there is a man put out front to focus attention on while the "real team" runs the show.

Zinj, in-between the two options you gave, there is a gradient.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Copied from another thread:

I have never seen or heard a single tiny shred of hard evidence that any US Govt agency has any control whatsoever over DM or any part of the :shark:. One can imagine anything, but if there is no evidence at all, so what? Can anyone provide a single link to any credible testimony online where some ex has said he observed DM after 1986 getting his orders from anyone? Any hint of it? Even from an uncredible source? I don't recall ever reading anything like that in all the hundreds of affidavits, personal stories etc.

Read this post by Larry Brennan on a.r.s. for a good counter-argument written by a long-term senior SO exec who was actively involved in the whole corporate set-up and who has first-hand data.

Paul

Paul
 

Div6

Crusader
I think the point is a bit more subtle....yes, armies and force are one way of occupying space. But that is obvious, takes money and time, and gets very expensive very quickly.

A better way is to have the inmates run the prison while they THINK they are free. This is way less expensive in the long run, and difficult to spot. But it takes some art to effect in the beginning.

Remember the RollBack tech? You basically were looking for people who had been duped into forwarding "enemy" lines and actions, in an effort to trace things back the the actual source.

So, the thesis is that while DM and the Int execs designed the corporate structure, they have been DUPED by the advice of their LAWYERS (ex-IRS commissioners and the Hellers) into believing what they believe, and acting the way they have acted, which is essentially organizing a squirrel group and altering technology. WHILE CLAIMING TO BE THE MOST ON SOURCE GROUP ON THE PLANET!

Remember DM is a high school dropout....he is intimidated by people smarter than he is. They can also control him...

And then enforcing it. The IRS then gives them "positve feedback" so they are justified in continuing their charade...meanwhile, there are no OT's there.


That is the thesis. I am not saying that I buy it completely.
It has its plus points and out-points.
But I really think Pat Price scared the bejeesus out of the war pigs in the MIC...big time.

Ingo too....

None of that justifies the crimes LRH and MSH and Jane Kember were committing via the GO. At all. And that too would piss off the "little people" enough to "close the door" on that technology....keeping bureaucracy working and all, you know...


And one point of correction to Mojo's original post. I have found no evidence to support the assertion that Cooley worked for the IRS. There is a pretty thorough synopsis of his professional career linked off of this page: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/bu/index.html

You may be thinking of Meade Emory, one of the founders of CST....
 
Last edited:

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
And then enforcing it. The IRS then gives them "positve feedback" so they are justified in continuing their charade...meanwhile, there are no OT's there.

This is a reversion to the original 'Gummint Stealing The Tech' conspiracy theory, especially, since it implies that the 'lack of OTs' is due to the deliberate interference by 'outsiders' (in this case, the IRS), and, not some inherent problem with the 'Tech' itself. However, it does touch base with one theory that is slightly less preposterous; i.e., that the 'lawyers' (or other non-Scientologists) are running things. So, Bjorkist is right; that is one 'theory' that is not covered by the 'Gummint running Co$' or even 'Co$ running the Gummint' gambit.

So, let's look at that one. 'The Lawyers Are Running the Church'. (Lawyers can stand proxy for any group of 'outsiders.)

Especially from LRH days, there are intriguing hints of something like this, since Norton Karno, who was LRH's attorney, had very intimate knowledge of and influence on the organization of the 'Church', and, there is no indication that Karno is himself a Scientologist.

But let's look at this. The premise is that some non-Scientologist cabal (lawyers or otherwise) is running things, and, the question becomes 'Why?'

Unlike the 'Goverment' theories, where either the exploitation or suppression of 'The Tech' is the essential core motive, this theory *does* allow for a more mundane 'purpose'; Money. The 'lawyers' are running the 'Church' as a cash cow. Does this make sense?

It could, so, it's not as easy to dismiss out of hand. And, the 'Church' organization is so deliberately convoluted, incestuous and obfuscated that 'Follow the Money' becomes a pipe dream. (Although, some are begging to find some of the threads.)

On the one hand, there's a theory popular among some critics that 'The Church is Going Broke'. It seems naive to me, in that, while there is plenty of evidence for falling GI from the Orgs and even Books/Tape sales, it ignores decades of magically disappearing money that has gone 'uplines'. That fortune is itself a money-maker, and it would be silly to think that it's not invested so that its income far surpasses the 'official' income from courses and other sales.

Superficially at least, it does suggest that 'running the Church' could be a tempting target for greedy 'outsiders', even ignoring the dubious magical 'Tech' benefits. But, there are problems with the theory too. I have no evidence either way. Nor am I likely to see any. Nor are any of us, because it's *impossible* for us to track 'black money', except peripherally. We don't have subpoena power, or any way to get at the 'real books' or trace the hidden bank accounts or ownerships that almost certainly exist. Someday forensic accountants may be able to pick over the carcass of the 'Church' and shed some light on it, but, it's not impossible that *nobody* actually knows how much is where.

So, it's interesting speculation; but, not something we're going to get 'clarity' on anytime soon.

But, we can reasonably evaluate the theory inductively, even if the actual money trail is invisible (to us.)

So, assuming we had a group of 'outsiders' who were running things; not for the gnarly 'OT Powerz' but purely for The Money. They would be interested not in the 'purity' of The Tech, but solely in cash. They would be attempting to maximize profit; not 'Clear the Planet'.

Sounds plausible, even given the sorry state of cashflow from the 'orgs' etc., since the already stashed fortune would itself be generating income. *But*, ownership of Scientology is a double-edged sword. There may be wealth, but, there is *also* a huge liability, especially criminal liability. Anyone profitting from the 'Church' is also complicit in decades of illegality, money laundering, corruption, racketeering, barratry, harrassment, fraud and extortion. That's not even counting the positively *huge* civil liability inherent in the defrauded membership.

If I Ran The Zoo; if I were a non-Scientologist only interested in raking in the cash with minimum exposure, I would want a time machine, and then, I would go back and cancel the 90s. The public exposure of the 'Church' during that period would have daunted any *sane* person. The attacks against 'outsiders', the internet, 'copyright terrorists', reporters etc. make actual criminal investigation and even prosecution almost inevitable. A *sane* outsider, running the 'Church' for reasons of greed would be:

Divesting divesting divesting. Get rid of the orgs; they are not (or barely) paying for themselves. Get rid of the 'public'; holding on to them requires levels of extortion (see Disconnection etc.) that are bound to cause 'flaps'. Get rid of the Sea Org; it's a blow up just waiting to happen. Get rid of Narconon, Criminon and ABLE in general. There is no sane hope of actually 'Clearing the Planet', so, there is no point to *expanding* Scientology into 'wog' society. It's just putting the pseudopod in the fire.

A sane outsider would be closing all 'bases'; closing the 'vaults'; immediately ceasing any public promulgation or attempts to 'safepoint' the organization itself, because the organization is a *liability*. An outsider would *not* be bound to the dogma of 'always attack', which has done so much to expose the 'Church'. An outsider would shudder at the Tom Cruises and Kirsty Alleys; at the Narconon 'infiltrations' and the 'Way to Happiness' pushes.

An outsider's interest would be in saving as much as possible, and laundering as much as can be laundered *before* the crunch comes. His interest would be in distancing himself from all crimes and hunkering down and trying to get curious eyes off the process until it was sanitized; not in committing *more* crimes or 'booming' the orgs.

On the other hand, a 'True Believer' would be deeply emotionally committed to 'Clearing the Planet' by any means necessary.

Which is happening?

Zinj
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
This is a reversion to the original 'Gummint Stealing The Tech' conspiracy theory, especially, since it implies that the 'lack of OTs' is due to the deliberate interference by 'outsiders' (in this case, the IRS), and, not some inherent problem with the 'Tech' itself. However, it does touch base with one theory that is slightly less preposterous; i.e., that the 'lawyers' (or other non-Scientologists) are running things. So, Bjorkist is right; that is one 'theory' that is not covered by the 'Gummint running Co$' or even 'Co$ running the Gummint' gambit.

So, let's look at that one. 'The Lawyers Are Running the Church'. (Lawyers can stand proxy for any group of 'outsiders.)

Especially from LRH days, there are intriguing hints of something like this, since Norton Karno, who was LRH's attorney, had very intimate knowledge of and influence on the organization of the 'Church', and, there is no indication that Karno is himself a Scientologist.

But let's look at this. The premise is that some non-Scientologist cabal (lawyers or otherwise) is running things, and, the question becomes 'Why?'

Unlike the 'Goverment' theories, where either the exploitation or suppression of 'The Tech' is the essential core motive, this theory *does* allow for a more mundane 'purpose'; Money. The 'lawyers' are running the 'Church' as a cash cow. Does this make sense?

It could, so, it's not as easy to dismiss out of hand. And, the 'Church' organization is so deliberately convoluted, incestuous and obfuscated that 'Follow the Money' becomes a pipe dream. (Although, some are begging to find some of the threads.)

On the one hand, there's a theory popular among some critics that 'The Church is Going Broke'. It seems naive to me, in that, while there is plenty of evidence for falling GI from the Orgs and even Books/Tape sales, it ignores decades of magically disappearing money that has gone 'uplines'. That fortune is itself a money-maker, and it would be silly to think that it's not invested so that its income far surpasses the 'official' income from courses and other sales.

Superficially at least, it does suggest that 'running the Church' could be a tempting target for greedy 'outsiders', even ignoring the dubious magical 'Tech' benefits. But, there are problems with the theory too. I have no evidence either way. Nor am I likely to see any. Nor are any of us, because it's *impossible* for us to track 'black money', except peripherally. We don't have subpoena power, or any way to get at the 'real books' or trace the hidden bank accounts or ownerships that almost certainly exist. Someday forensic accountants may be able to pick over the carcass of the 'Church' and shed some light on it, but, it's not impossible that *nobody* actually knows how much is where.

So, it's interesting speculation; but, not something we're going to get 'clarity' on anytime soon.

But, we can reasonably evaluate the theory inductively, even if the actual money trail is invisible (to us.)

So, assuming we had a group of 'outsiders' who were running things; not for the gnarly 'OT Powerz' but purely for The Money. They would be interested not in the 'purity' of The Tech, but solely in cash. They would be attempting to maximize profit; not 'Clear the Planet'.

Sounds plausible, even given the sorry state of cashflow from the 'orgs' etc., since the already stashed fortune would itself be generating income. *But*, ownership of Scientology is a double-edged sword. There may be wealth, but, there is *also* a huge liability, especially criminal liability. Anyone profitting from the 'Church' is also complicit in decades of illegality, money laundering, corruption, racketeering, barratry, harrassment, fraud and extortion. That's not even counting the positively *huge* civil liability inherent in the defrauded membership.

If I Ran The Zoo; if I were a non-Scientologist only interested in raking in the cash with minimum exposure, I would want a time machine, and then, I would go back and cancel the 90s. The public exposure of the 'Church' during that period would have daunted any *sane* person. The attacks against 'outsiders', the internet, 'copyright terrorists', reporters etc. make actual criminal investigation and even prosecution almost inevitable. A *sane* outsider, running the 'Church' for reasons of greed would be:

Divesting divesting divesting. Get rid of the orgs; they are not (or barely) paying for themselves. Get rid of the 'public'; holding on to them requires levels of extortion (see Disconnection etc.) that are bound to cause 'flaps'. Get rid of the Sea Org; it's a blow up just waiting to happen. Get rid of Narconon, Criminon and ABLE in general. There is no sane hope of actually 'Clearing the Planet', so, there is no point to *expanding* Scientology into 'wog' society. It's just putting the pseudopod in the fire.

A sane outsider would be closing all 'bases'; closing the 'vaults'; immediately ceasing any public promulgation or attempts to 'safepoint' the organization itself, because the organization is a *liability*. An outsider would *not* be bound to the dogma of 'always attack', which has done so much to expose the 'Church'. An outsider would shudder at the Tom Cruises and Kirsty Alleys; at the Narconon 'infiltrations' and the 'Way to Happiness' pushes.

An outsider's interest would be in saving as much as possible, and laundering as much as can be laundered *before* the crunch comes. His interest would be in distancing himself from all crimes and hunkering down and trying to get curious eyes off the process until it was sanitized; not in committing *more* crimes or 'booming' the orgs.

On the other hand, a 'True Believer' would be deeply emotionally committed to 'Clearing the Planet' by any means necessary.

Which is happening?

Zinj

Or a gradient between the two.

As a "true believer" with open eyes, I would say it is a matrix of every possible scenario playing out to some extent. A little "government", a lot of greed, a good percentage of fanaticism, and a lot of people being people, held together by a core of truth and the hard work of people committed to that.

A perfect storm of sorts.

If you dont want to be clear zinj, maybe we will keep you around as an educational example.

alex
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yeah well conspiracy theories are pretty but I like facts. Got any? DM is there because noone has the balls to take his place. Just like Capone sold booze until ONE man stopped him. It only takes one person.

The fact that there is no pr (leaks) from inside the COS against him. The fact that there is no information on his personal finances, sexual habits, or structure of power available, at least that I've seen. The fact that the Feds have not investigated and gone after him like they did Hubbard, or leaked information to Cruise that would terminate their relationship and severely damage the COS around the world.

Capone had a very strong support group around him and paid off every judge, police captain, and alderman in Chicago for years. The Feds had to get him or no one was going to. And one man didn't stop him. It was the FBI, IRS, and federal attorneys ganging up on him. And then it wasn't easy.

Why do you push this idea DM is operating alone? It just isn't done. It is much to his benefit people believe he is because they then ignore the underpinnings that would take him down if removed. There are always people interested in succeeding to powerful positions, whatever their intentions, and no one has dented him yet. And there are always people who want a piece of the $$ pie. To fight that off requires information and loyalty. Loyalty costs money when it isn't the true blue variety. Information requires a network. DM is using both, by inference.
 
Last edited:

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Or a gradient between the two.

As a "true believer" with open eyes, I would say it is a matrix of every possible scenario playing out to some extent. A little "government", a lot of greed, a good percentage of fanaticism, and a lot of people being people, held together by a core of truth and the hard work of people committed to that.

A perfect storm of sorts.

If you dont want to be clear zinj, maybe we will keep you around as an educational example.

alex

The point of the exercise is to address speculation that 'Somebody else is running the Church', whether it be Intergalactic Psychs/Govt./'Enemies' whose purpose is to 'destroy the Tech' (or exploit it themselves, and ruin it for anyone else), which requires some belief in the *value* of the 'Tech' in the first place. Or, whether it might be *non* Scientologists, who are running it out of sheer greed, which requires no inherent 'value' to the 'Tech' in the first place.

I don't doubt that there are 'hangers on' who are not Scientologists, but, are profitting from the 'Church'. The aforementioned Norton Karno, hired sleeze like Eugene Ingram and other 'PIs'; corrupt public officials and other stooges.

But, they would *not* be setting 'policy', in fact, as far as possible they would be attempting to steer policy into 'sane' paths. Which is in fact happening, at some very low level. The insanity and rabid social interaction of the 'Church' is what results *after* making concessions to 'sane behavior'.

Without it, things would be *much* more insane :)

But, that's because it's *not* outsiders 'running' things. However many dupes and stooges and corrupt wogs may be profitting from the 'Church'; they're obviously *not* running it, because the last thing in the world they'd be interested in would be 'Clearing the Planet'.

There's no 'in-between' there. To believe in 'Clearing the Planet' you *must* be a Scientologist, and, there's no evidence at *all* for any 'internal cabal' that's pulling the strings on David Miscavige, because, if there were, he would have long been yanked from the 'scene'.

I do have a theory that 'current management' itself is pursuing a deliberately 'sane' course within the past dozen years, but, it's almost as batshit as the 'CIA running Co$' one, so, I'll keep that out of this discussion. :)

Zinj
 

Div6

Crusader
<snip>

There's no 'in-between' there. To believe in 'Clearing the Planet' you *must* be a Scientologist, and, there's no evidence at *all* for any 'internal cabal' that's pulling the strings on David Miscavige, because, if there were, he would have long been yanked from the 'scene'.

<snip>

Zinj

This smacks of fanaticism to me....I know plenty of Alternate Health Types that want to "detox" the planet, etc. Shamans, priests, witches, etc. Even McArthur warned of the evils of the Military Industrial Complex....


Further, why do you think they would yank DM? The perception is that he is doing exactly what *they* want....destroy the tech, run the church into the ground, bury the subject completely. He is doing an EXCELLENT job of that.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
The fact that there is no pr (leaks) from inside the COS against him. The fact that there is no information on his personal finances, sexual habits, or structure of power available, at least that I've seen. The fact that the Feds have not investigated and gone after him like they did Hubbard, or leaked information to Cruise that would terminate their relationship and severely damage the COS around the world.

Capone had a very strong support group around him and paid off every judge, police captain, and alderman in Chicago for years. The Feds had to get him or no one was going to. And one man didn't stop him. It was the FBI, IRS, and federal attornies ganging up on him. And then it wasn't easy.

Why do you push this idea DM is operating alone? It just isn't done. It is much to his benefit people believe he is because they then ignore the underpinnings that would take him down if removed. There are always people interested in succeeding to powerful positions, whatever their intentions, and no one has dented him yet. And there are always people who want a piece of the $$ pie. To fight that off requires information and loyalty. Loyalty costs money when it isn't the true blue variety. Information requires a network. DM is using both, by inference.

Its the world bankers!!!!!


They're after us!!!!! :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
This smacks of fanaticism to me....I know plenty of Alternate Health Types that want to "detox" the planet, etc. Shamans, priests, witches, etc. Even McArthur warned of the evils of the Military Industrial Complex....


Further, why do you think they would yank DM? The perception is that he is doing exactly what *they* want....destroy the tech, run the church into the ground, bury the subject completely. He is doing an EXCELLENT job of that.

'Clearing the Planet' is a very specific code phrase unique to Scientology and translates to 'Scientology Control of the Planet'. There are elements of it that bear some resemblance to the 'goals' of other subversive/whack-job/insidious 'movements' and organizations, such as the marxist 'dictatorship of the proletariat' or the TM '1%' or, in a less dire way, even the mahayana 'Big Boat' buddhism, which posits a 'universal enlightenment' rather than individual escape from the 'wheel', but, *nobody* but a Scientologist wants Scientology's 'Clearing the Planet', however much they'd like to run it themselves.

Zinj
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
This smacks of fanaticism to me....I know plenty of Alternate Health Types that want to "detox" the planet, etc. Shamans, priests, witches, etc. Even McArthur warned of the evils of the Military Industrial Complex....


Further, why do you think they would yank DM? The perception is that he is doing exactly what *they* want....destroy the tech, run the church into the ground, bury the subject completely. He is doing an EXCELLENT job of that.

EXACTLY!

Use a dumb fanatic to drive a religion into the ground! A classic technique.
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
Its the world bankers!!!!!


They're after us!!!!! :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:

Calm down, Bea, things aren't that bad. They're only after the paranoids.

I don't believe there is any vast consipiracy. I'm talking about connections, like police, judge, alderman for Capone, people with influence and control, and information sources. For the COS that would be some folks in government positions, probably a few publishers/reporters, and a good many snitches inside.

Does anyone really think the big money guys concern themselves with the COS? They could squash it like a bug if it were worth the trouble. It isn't.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Calm down, Bea, things aren't that bad. They're only after the paranoids.

I don't believe there is any vast consipiracy. I'm talking about connections, like police, judge, alderman for Capone, people with influence and control, and information sources. For the COS that would be some folks in government positions, probably a few publishers/reporters, and a good many snitches inside.

Does anyone really think the big money guys concern themselves with the COS? They could squash it like a bug if it were worth the trouble. It isn't.

It was just a momentary lapse. I went into an LRH valence there for a minute. GROSS!!!!!


Meanwhile I have much, much larger issues to deal with in my life. Like how to make a tuna melt without mayo. I HATE mayo. I love tuna melt. Its suppressive and oppressive. I am totally stuck in something and can't solve it. Its a disaster right now and I may go hungry because of it....:melodramatic:
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Calm down, Bea, things aren't that bad. They're only after the paranoids.

I don't believe there is any vast consipiracy. I'm talking about connections, like police, judge, alderman for Capone, people with influence and control, and information sources. For the COS that would be some folks in government positions, probably a few publishers/reporters, and a good many snitches inside.

Does anyone really think the big money guys concern themselves with the COS? They could squash it like a bug if it were worth the trouble. It isn't.

That sums things up in a "nutshell" :)

DM being the new seed of the "nut."

The players (public and staff) being the "meat or fruits" of the "nut!"

The Ethics - Tech - Admin being the "nutcase or nutcasing. (shell)"

The CofS being the tree.....with different Orgs, SO's, OSA's, Narcanon's, Applied Scholastics, WISE, etc. as being the "branches" each capable of growing more "nuts." :omg: :omg: :omg:


Alan
 
Top