David's in Charge but not in Control, Yes?

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
It was just a momentary lapse. I went into an LRH valence there for a minute. GROSS!!!!!


Meanwhile I have much, much larger issues to deal with in my life. Like how to make a tuna melt without mayo. I HATE mayo. I love tuna melt. Its suppressive and oppressive. I am totally stuck in something and can't solve it. Its a disaster right now and I may go hungry because of it....:melodramatic:

Use plain yogurt instead of Mayo.

There.

That'll be $4,000.
 

Mary

Patron with Honors
This is a reversion to the original 'Gummint Stealing The Tech' conspiracy theory, especially, since it implies that the 'lack of OTs' is due to the deliberate interference by 'outsiders' (in this case, the IRS), and, not some inherent problem with the 'Tech' itself. However, it does touch base with one theory that is slightly less preposterous; i.e., that the 'lawyers' (or other non-Scientologists) are running things. So, Bjorkist is right; that is one 'theory' that is not covered by the 'Gummint running Co$' or even 'Co$ running the Gummint' gambit.

So, let's look at that one. 'The Lawyers Are Running the Church'. (Lawyers can stand proxy for any group of 'outsiders.)

Especially from LRH days, there are intriguing hints of something like this, since Norton Karno, who was LRH's attorney, had very intimate knowledge of and influence on the organization of the 'Church', and, there is no indication that Karno is himself a Scientologist.

But let's look at this. The premise is that some non-Scientologist cabal (lawyers or otherwise) is running things, and, the question becomes 'Why?'

Unlike the 'Goverment' theories, where either the exploitation or suppression of 'The Tech' is the essential core motive, this theory *does* allow for a more mundane 'purpose'; Money. The 'lawyers' are running the 'Church' as a cash cow. Does this make sense?

It could, so, it's not as easy to dismiss out of hand. And, the 'Church' organization is so deliberately convoluted, incestuous and obfuscated that 'Follow the Money' becomes a pipe dream. (Although, some are begging to find some of the threads.)

On the one hand, there's a theory popular among some critics that 'The Church is Going Broke'. It seems naive to me, in that, while there is plenty of evidence for falling GI from the Orgs and even Books/Tape sales, it ignores decades of magically disappearing money that has gone 'uplines'. That fortune is itself a money-maker, and it would be silly to think that it's not invested so that its income far surpasses the 'official' income from courses and other sales.

Superficially at least, it does suggest that 'running the Church' could be a tempting target for greedy 'outsiders', even ignoring the dubious magical 'Tech' benefits. But, there are problems with the theory too. I have no evidence either way. Nor am I likely to see any. Nor are any of us, because it's *impossible* for us to track 'black money', except peripherally. We don't have subpoena power, or any way to get at the 'real books' or trace the hidden bank accounts or ownerships that almost certainly exist. Someday forensic accountants may be able to pick over the carcass of the 'Church' and shed some light on it, but, it's not impossible that *nobody* actually knows how much is where.

So, it's interesting speculation; but, not something we're going to get 'clarity' on anytime soon.

But, we can reasonably evaluate the theory inductively, even if the actual money trail is invisible (to us.)

So, assuming we had a group of 'outsiders' who were running things; not for the gnarly 'OT Powerz' but purely for The Money. They would be interested not in the 'purity' of The Tech, but solely in cash. They would be attempting to maximize profit; not 'Clear the Planet'.

Sounds plausible, even given the sorry state of cashflow from the 'orgs' etc., since the already stashed fortune would itself be generating income. *But*, ownership of Scientology is a double-edged sword. There may be wealth, but, there is *also* a huge liability, especially criminal liability. Anyone profitting from the 'Church' is also complicit in decades of illegality, money laundering, corruption, racketeering, barratry, harrassment, fraud and extortion. That's not even counting the positively *huge* civil liability inherent in the defrauded membership.

If I Ran The Zoo; if I were a non-Scientologist only interested in raking in the cash with minimum exposure, I would want a time machine, and then, I would go back and cancel the 90s. The public exposure of the 'Church' during that period would have daunted any *sane* person. The attacks against 'outsiders', the internet, 'copyright terrorists', reporters etc. make actual criminal investigation and even prosecution almost inevitable. A *sane* outsider, running the 'Church' for reasons of greed would be:

Divesting divesting divesting. Get rid of the orgs; they are not (or barely) paying for themselves. Get rid of the 'public'; holding on to them requires levels of extortion (see Disconnection etc.) that are bound to cause 'flaps'. Get rid of the Sea Org; it's a blow up just waiting to happen. Get rid of Narconon, Criminon and ABLE in general. There is no sane hope of actually 'Clearing the Planet', so, there is no point to *expanding* Scientology into 'wog' society. It's just putting the pseudopod in the fire.

A sane outsider would be closing all 'bases'; closing the 'vaults'; immediately ceasing any public promulgation or attempts to 'safepoint' the organization itself, because the organization is a *liability*. An outsider would *not* be bound to the dogma of 'always attack', which has done so much to expose the 'Church'. An outsider would shudder at the Tom Cruises and Kirsty Alleys; at the Narconon 'infiltrations' and the 'Way to Happiness' pushes.

An outsider's interest would be in saving as much as possible, and laundering as much as can be laundered *before* the crunch comes. His interest would be in distancing himself from all crimes and hunkering down and trying to get curious eyes off the process until it was sanitized; not in committing *more* crimes or 'booming' the orgs.

On the other hand, a 'True Believer' would be deeply emotionally committed to 'Clearing the Planet' by any means necessary.

Which is happening?

Zinj

Thank you Zinj. Brilliant post with real insight!

While studying the OEC vols I found this 'True Believer' attitude.

To my horror and revulsion I found myself beginning to think that, anything at all, any crime, any domination, any sacrifice of others could be justified by 'greatest good for greatest number'.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
'Clearing the Planet' is a very specific code phrase unique to Scientology and translates to 'Scientology Control of the Planet'. There are elements of it that bear some resemblance to the 'goals' of other subversive/whack-job/insidious 'movements' and organizations, such as the marxist 'dictatorship of the proletariat' or the TM '1%' or, in a less dire way, even the mahayana 'Big Boat' buddhism, which posits a 'universal enlightenment' rather than individual escape from the 'wheel', but, *nobody* but a Scientologist wants Scientology's 'Clearing the Planet', however much they'd like to run it themselves.

Zinj

Bullshit.

Control of the planet seems a likely purpose of The Church of Scientology.

Us true believers want the world without war, insanity, crime thing.

Other people want the same. It is not a goal exclusive to scientology.

Of course you always fail to distinguish a person who is a true believer in scientology with one who is a believer in the church.

You CAN NOT force a person clear. Doesnt work. PERIOD.

alex
 

Mojo

Silver Meritorious Patron
And one point of correction to Mojo's original post. I have found no evidence to support the assertion that Cooley worked for the IRS. There is a pretty thorough synopsis of his professional career linked off of this page: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/bu/index.html

You may be thinking of Meade Emory, one of the founders of CST....

You are right Div 6. It was Meade I was alluding to. Meade Emory: attorney, a professor of law at the University of Washington School of Law, a former Assistant to the Commissioner of the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and a co-founder of the Church of Spiritual Technology.

Assistant commisioner of the United States IRS and co-founder of the Church of Spiritual Technology.

I'm sure David Miscaviage intimidated the hell out of little Emory. Just like he intimidated Earl Cooley too. And the rest of the so called co-founders of the CST.

Nonsense.

Miscaviage is a puppet. Although I do appreciate another posters suggestion that he may be a puppet unawares. So to speak.

Zinjs argument (in part) I believe is that there is no evidence of such puppetry? In my world (Mojo-Land) evidence does not produce facts, it merely confirms em. If I had ham and eggs for breakfast this morning and the restaurant that served me closed this afternoon (and all of the employees simultaneously died) does that mean I didn't really have ham and eggs this morning for breakfast, this evening? Lol. Ok so that was a pitiful example. But the idea remains valid. Evidence is not a requirement for reality. If it were, the planet pluto would have never existed until it was spotted. Lol. (and don't bring up the quantum mechanics thing here, lol)

Granted, this whole speculation affair is no big deal. I concede. It is merely an excersize in, well, the joy of speculation. Any practical value being conceivably nil. Notwithstanding I get to feel 'right' whilst so many others are 'wrong', which sets me up for a sense of personal specialness and superiority. Lol.

To Zing: Regarding my penning of post #9, I trust you realize I was writing in at least half-jest. Although your comparing my (almost brilliant) theory to the Phil Scott and Veritas propositions was dis-heartening.

To Alan: Ditto what I said above about the half-jesting in post #9. I respect your experience and admire your wisdom.

Mo
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Law of most COUNTRIES 101:

They own the country!

They expect you to pay taxes to rent pieces of the country and have the rights to play games.

They are a partner in your business.

It is NOT A CONSPIRACY.

Attorneys advise people about the Law.

Often to gain experience and position they work both sides of the Law.

Yes they can have some control. Just as any person has over you when you are ignorant in an area.

Alan
 

Terril park

Sponsor
It was just a momentary lapse. I went into an LRH valence there for a minute. GROSS!!!!!


Meanwhile I have much, much larger issues to deal with in my life. Like how to make a tuna melt without mayo. I HATE mayo. I love tuna melt. Its suppressive and oppressive. I am totally stuck in something and can't solve it. Its a disaster right now and I may go hungry because of it....:melodramatic:

Try " Wilcat GPMs." :)
 

Colleen K. Peltomaa

Silver Meritorious Patron
Reading this thread I keep seeing parallels in history: The Catholic Church is large and wealthy. It had its splinter groups which still exist today and spout pretty much the same "technology", whilst some splinter groups say the Catholic Church is the great whore Babylon.

The Catholic Church got established once it suited the purposes of some leaders, Charlemagne for one. Then the tech started getting officially altered (no more reference to past lives, etc.)

Perhaps with CofS what we are witnessing is a repeat of the history of the Catholic Church, or more modernly, the Mormon Church. I believe the Mormon Church claims to have 10million followers worldwide. It started as a scam, just as Scientology did. Today it is semi-respectable, certainly not going to crash anytime soon in spite of the documented evidence. Look at all those pretty buildings. Looks like DM is on an evolution to make some pretty buildings too.

I think Karl Marx was right, "religion is the opiate of the people". I don't agree with his solution.
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
It was just a momentary lapse. I went into an LRH valence there for a minute. GROSS!!!!!


Meanwhile I have much, much larger issues to deal with in my life. Like how to make a tuna melt without mayo. I HATE mayo. I love tuna melt. Its suppressive and oppressive. I am totally stuck in something and can't solve it. Its a disaster right now and I may go hungry because of it....:melodramatic:

Use Miracle Whip!
 

MarkWI

Patron Meritorious
As a note on power,
I quote a good science finction book.
It does not fit for DM however, but fits well for Heber Jentzsch.


Quote from the book The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
{What's President?}

President: full title President of the Imperial Galactic
Government.

The term Imperial is kept though it is now an anachronism. The
hereditary Emperor is nearly dead and has been so for many
centuries. In the last moments of his dying coma he was locked in
a statis field which keeps him in a state of perpetual
unchangingness. All his heirs are now long dead, and this means
that without any drastic political upheaval, power has simply and
effectively moved a rung or two down the ladder, and is now seen
to be vested in a body which used to act simply as advisers to
the Emperor - an elected Governmental assembly headed by a
President elected by that assembly. In fact it vests in no such
place.

The President in particular is very much a figurehead - he wields
no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the
government, but the qualities he is required to display are not
those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this
reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an
infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield
power but to draw attention away from it. On those criteria
Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the
Galaxy has ever had - he has already spent two of his ten
Presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people
realize that the President and the Government have virtually no
power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence
ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly
believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a
computer. They couldn't be more wrong.
 

MarkWI

Patron Meritorious
I have never seen or heard a single tiny shred of hard evidence that any US Govt agency has any control whatsoever over DM or any part of the :shark:. One can imagine anything, but if there is no evidence at all, so what? Can anyone provide a single link to any credible testimony online where some ex has said he observed DM after 1986 getting his orders from anyone? Any hint of it? Even from an uncredible source? I don't recall ever reading anything like that in all the hundreds of affidavits, personal stories etc.

Read this post by Larry Brennan on a.r.s. for a good counter-argument written by a long-term senior SO exec who was actively involved in the whole corporate set-up and who has first-hand data.

Paul

Thank you Paul, postings of Larry Brennan are very interesting!

This is something that any ex can easily do (from one of Larry's recent posts):

"...I asked Ursula that other than what some people can testify to that may help her, the Belgium government, etc. what could ex
scientologists from like the United States do to help. Ursula asked me to ask ex scientologists in the USA to write to their federal
senators, congressional reps and governors and tell them their stories with organized scientology. They should be short letters (one to two
pages) of the honest facts of how they have been abused or witnessed abuse by those in organized scientology. She feels that this is the
most important thing the average American ex scientologist could do, even if it's just one letter."


I guess that can be done by any ex-scientologist to politicians of his country.

M
 

Colleen K. Peltomaa

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thank you Paul, postings of Larry Brennan are very interesting!

This is something that any ex can easily do (from one of Larry's recent posts):

"...I asked Ursula that other than what some people can testify to that may help her, the Belgium government, etc. what could ex
scientologists from like the United States do to help. Ursula asked me to ask ex scientologists in the USA to write to their federal
senators, congressional reps and governors and tell them their stories with organized scientology. They should be short letters (one to two
pages) of the honest facts of how they have been abused or witnessed abuse by those in organized scientology. She feels that this is the
most important thing the average American ex scientologist could do, even if it's just one letter."


I guess that can be done by any ex-scientologist to politicians of his country.

M

This is motion is worthy and effective. Below is the link to find your leaders and be able to write to them. Please write and then post, thank you.


http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm
 

Jimmy Cricket

Patron with Honors
To my horror and revulsion I found myself beginning to think that, anything at all, any crime, any domination, any sacrifice of others could be justified by 'greatest good for greatest number'.

Good cog. Co$ Ethics are actually ' the greatest good for the greatest number of Co$ dynamics'.

Viewede in that light, a lot of insanity and abuses perpetrated by DM et al start making a bit of sense.

Co$ Ethics has nothing whatsoever to do with personal dynamics (what is best for the individual) but only with propagating the insane power structure of Co$ money and totalitarianism.

DM learned well from LRH.

old-ugly-l-ron-hubbard-small.jpg
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dear Alan and Zinj,

How you could take my post and respond with 'government' and 'conspiracy's of the people' is momentarily beyond my comprehension. Wow. For goodness sake. Having put the both of you on my 'buddy list' on ESMB (in secret) I am momentarily both shocked and concerned for my own psychological well being.

Jeesh.


And Alan, you wrote: "DM runs Scio and all entities". Really? Swear to God?
Bull shit.

That's your theory written as fact. Ala L. Ron Hubbards.

It's not a "theory". You may wish it was, but it is not.

Just because you have never worked in Scientology management and have no idea what you are talking about will not, of course make any difference to the utter rubbish you are going to post.

At least I have the decency to acknowledge my theory as being theory. Whereas you pen things as though they are fact when in fact you haven't a dog shit reality clue as to the veracity of what you say.

Do I err here?

I think not.

I think so. You seem to be defining "theory" as "any dogshit idea someone has no matter how stupid". yeah, using that definition - you have a theory.

What you actually have is a bunch of misinformed twaddle.
 
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