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Dealing with lost integrity

jodie

Patron with Honors
It is very interesting reading different people's experiences and stories once they have left the cult.

One of the themes that often comes up is that people are are ashamed of things that they have done while in the cult. IMHO, people betrayed their own integrity, if they are ashamed later.

Quite a few manage to get out the cult with their integrity in tact. Those are the lucky ones. I think healing may be easier for them.

But for those who lost their integrity for this cult - that is a b*tch to deal with.

I am one of those. It will never go away. 12 years out, many experiences, a whole new life, all on track. Except for one thing. I still do not have my self-respect back. I never will get it back. I have to learn how to live in spite of that. I manage, mostly by focusing on getting through the day, one day at a time. It is not guilt - guilt is pointless. It is just a deadness in a certain area.

And then the age old question - how much of that is the cults' fault, and how much of that is the individuals' fault. The answers probably vary according to individual circumstances. In my case - it was something I would never have done if I had not been in this cult. But the fact that I did do it, meant that I had a flawed character in the first place - it just was not apparant. So I do not blame the cult for what I did. I blame myself fully.

So, how does one live in spite of that?

Simply. Humbly. Realistically. One day at a time.

And the Tao makes for damn comforting reading. :)

- jodie
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
My heart goes out to you Jodie!

May you learn to forgive yourself.

To conduct one's life according to the Tao,
is to conduct one's life without regrets;
to realize that potential within oneself
which is of benefit to all.


The Tao - Stan Rosenthal's Translation
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
It is very interesting reading different people's experiences and stories once they have left the cult.

One of the themes that often comes up is that people are are ashamed of things that they have done while in the cult. IMHO, people betrayed their own integrity, if they are ashamed later.

Quite a few manage to get out the cult with their integrity in tact. Those are the lucky ones. I think healing may be easier for them.

But for those who lost their integrity for this cult - that is a b*tch to deal with.

I am one of those. It will never go away. 12 years out, many experiences, a whole new life, all on track. Except for one thing. I still do not have my self-respect back. I never will get it back. I have to learn how to live in spite of that. I manage, mostly by focusing on getting through the day, one day at a time. It is not guilt - guilt is pointless. It is just a deadness in a certain area.

And then the age old question - how much of that is the cults' fault, and how much of that is the individuals' fault. The answers probably vary according to individual circumstances. In my case - it was something I would never have done if I had not been in this cult. But the fact that I did do it, meant that I had a flawed character in the first place - it just was not apparant. So I do not blame the cult for what I did. I blame myself fully.

So, how does one live in spite of that?

Simply. Humbly. Realistically. One day at a time.

And the Tao makes for damn comforting reading. :)

- jodie

It's hard introspection Jodie,whether you had choices all along ,whether
your flawed character was as a result of cult indoctrination (just looking inward and finding failure(finding the ruin)instead of the wrong in COS.or you felt you did have some character
traits.
or whether at the time you were so caught up in the group you made
decisions becuase you felt it depended on your survival or the greater
objectives of the group.

Just my view,you can have flawed character all you want .It's separate to the
group and how it operates.Something is definitely flawed there.
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Jodie,

I guess that I should live in the present and not in the past. I don't think that burying myself in regrets will accomplish much in the here and now.

Back then I was naïve. I am not so naïve anymore (at least, not so much on the subjects of history, religion, and cults anymore).

Forgive yourself and move on - that's the best you can do, IMO.

You are different now and that's the most important thing to remember.:)

Best regards,
Larry
 

tarbaby

Patron with Honors
Forgive yourself and move on - that's the best you can do, IMO.

That may not be the very best you can do ... if you can even accomplish that.

There are reprehensible things a person does in his or her life that are not subject to self-forgiveness. A person may actually have to do something in order to mitigate the results of such actions on others.

And then there are the things that one has done for which there should be no relief from self-mortification. Those things serve as a constant reminder ... do not repeat.

Dennis
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
tarbaby said:
There are reprehensible things a person does in his or her life that are not subject to self-forgiveness. A person may actually have to do something in order to mitigate the results of such actions on others.

If you are talking about the subject of making amends then I would agree. But sometimes this is not really possible in any direct way. The person just needs to get on with their life and not make the same mistakes again.

tarbaby said:
And then there are the things that one has done for which there should be no relief from self-mortification. Those things serve as a constant reminder ... do not repeat.

I do not agree with "there should be no relief from self-mortification". There should be relief. I am NOT saying that one shouldn't be sorry for things they did. I am saying that the self-mortification should stop - this isn't healthy to go on and on about it in your own mind. :naughty:

Unless you like self-flagellation like with the main character in the book "Brave New World". :chillpill:
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't agree with Tarbaby, I believe forgiving oneself is the first step towards relief. If you don't forgive yourself then you will not be able to accept anyone's forgiveness towards you!

It is possible to recover from the CofS experience and one's actions while in it.

Ron pretended that this was possible, but his technique of writing up O/Ws, culling PC folders and forced confessions meant that the person's wrongdoings were forever out there ready to be forced back upon the person at some time in the future.

Therefore on balance Ron created this scenario where you might never get relief from the harm you have done. I say don't suffer from Ron's control mechanism!

Once you find a way to forgive yourself (religion, counselling, meditation, whatever) you can build the strength to no longer care about the hold the CofS had upon you.
 
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jodie

Patron with Honors
Thanks

Thanks for your responses. I found them very interesting. I raised it, because more people than we realise have to deal with this aspect when they get out of a cult. It is a topic not often discussed - a taboo, if you like.

I'm not into masochism (shades of Dan Brown's self-flagellating Monk there, eh, Dennis), that is simply a twisted way of STILL not dealing with it.

Personally, I believe in the Tao.

But I was interested in other views on this rather politically incorrect topic.

Thanks very much Romuva, Lionheart, Larry. Compassionate and practical.

- jodie
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
This subject is very near and dear to me. Those of you who know my story
know that I was once, one of the truly indoctrinated ones.

For 27 years I was a true believer and was involved in some of the more
despecible behavior that Scientologists participate in.

For me, it was more than just forgiving myself, and believe me that was extremely difficult. I guess I am just one of those persons that have to act and actually do something to make things right. It's not for everyone and
actively taking on the C of S and telling it like is not something I recommend
for everyone.

However I do believe that people need to tell their stories, whether they do it openly or anonymously. I think it helps them and helps others to read
what people have been through and what they've done.

Jodie, the fact that you are here, and talking and listening and giving your opinions is a great help to the many that have left or are just leaving.

As Scientologists, we were not allowed to do that. We could not discuss the tech, the C of S, Hubbard, management, etc. unless it was to say "good" things.

Keep working at it Jodie, it's only going to get better.

Patty
 

tarbaby

Patron with Honors
I don't agree with Tarbaby, I believe forgiving oneself is the first step towards relief.

Well, I didn't say not to forgive yourself (if you can.)

But I use a few of my more serious and injurious mistakes as important reminders of how far off course, away from my true self, I can stray. They are not foremost in mind all the time, but they can act as sign-posts warning me away from the kinds of situations where I might act in a way unbecoming or harmful.

Do I once again need to put a smiley in to make myself clearer? :read: Zat help?

Dennis
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
You don't need smiley's to make yourself clear to me Tarby - but they can be fun! :grouphug:

Friendly discussion always does the job for me, my friend! How wonderful that you have learned to use your mistakes in Scn to act as sign posts. Oh if only all ex-scientologists could do the same!
 

UMike

Patron with Honors
Not to get all deep here Jodie...but I think that you are on your way to redemption.

Truly believing that you cannot be forgiven is part of the beginning process.

I did something awful/cruel to someone when I was very very young. This person was a member of a specific particular minority group which I exploited.
To this day-40 years later I still give of myself/donate to this group as part of an ongoing penance.
If I told you what I did---you would just brush it off as no big deal.
Well, it is/was to me.
It helped define my character-sense of humanity.

These events DO happen for reasons not evident for years sometime.

I truly know that we only grow in pain. Look at all these soulless rich celebrity girls in the media. They don't have to
change or grow. There ia always another layer of paid people to cushion them when they fall.

Turn the Negative into a Positive force and hold your head high when you are able.
...good luck...

UMike
 
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jodie

Patron with Honors
Thanks Pooks and UMike

I read your posts a while after you posted them (been offline) - wanted to thank you both very much for your valuable input and encouragement.

Muchos grazias!

- jodie
 
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