SweetnessandLight
Crusader
"Some Dianetic Processing uses "Reverie", which also has nothing to do with hypnosis." 
Mommy!!!
Mommy!!!
death by auditing
- Thread starter MrNobody
- Start date
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
That's a lot of BIG ifs, Olska.
Anything might happen when a person engages in Mind Meddling.
I like what you're saying and how you're saying it, even if I don't agree with the basic premise.
Anything might happen when a person engages in Mind Meddling.
I like what you're saying and how you're saying it, even if I don't agree with the basic premise.
That's a lot of BIG ifs, Olska.
Anything might happen when a person engages in Mind Meddling.
I like what you're saying and how you're saying it, even if I don't agree with the basic premise.
Those "ifs" are real examples I've encountered in scientologists along the way ... except the last one, that's from an "OT Phenomena" story from Advance magazine, not a personal encounter.
.... AND THERE'S MORE ....... !!! (but I'll save those for a strategic moment for some other time...)
Whew, quite a few great posts have piled up since my last login. There's so much I'd love to reply to, but I just can't. This huge "unpredictability" factor, that I usually enjoy so much in my life, has hit me in a not-so-nice way yesterday, so I just don't have the time ATM. 
I'm reading, though.
@GoodTwin: I've never met an (EX-)$ciontologist, FZer, or Indie as far as I can tell, but every human I've ever met had a nutty component. I'm sure I have it too. :wink2:
So I think that's just a "normal" human feature and nothing to worry about. As long as it doesn't get out of hand.
I'm sure such a disclaimer already exists somewhere in the many waivers and/or contracts all $cientologists have to sign on a regular basis.
I'm reading, though. @GoodTwin: I've never met an (EX-)$ciontologist, FZer, or Indie as far as I can tell, but every human I've ever met had a nutty component. I'm sure I have it too. :wink2:
So I think that's just a "normal" human feature and nothing to worry about. As long as it doesn't get out of hand.
I'm sure such a disclaimer already exists somewhere in the many waivers and/or contracts all $cientologists have to sign on a regular basis.
Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
No doubt. I wonder, do the FZ/Indie people have similar disclaimers? Do their e-meters even carry the required FDA notice?
Good questions. Have any FZ contracts been leaked yet?
Let me use my "Wog spirituality" here and predict that someone will chime in to state: "A good auditor can do it without the E-meter"
uniquemand
Unbeliever
By itself, an ohm-meter doesn't fix your car stereo.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Yes, you could fit scientology under the large umbrella of "psychotherapy". But don't tell the scientologists -- you know how they hate psyches!
And there could begin a controlled study of whether or not it was an effective psychotherapy -- whether using it achieved desirable results.
For example:
If a person's Narcississtic Personality Disorder is reinforced by scientology auditing, and they become even more narcissistic, are they more able?
If as a result of scientology auditing, a bipolar person's depressive episodes go away but the manic episodes become more intense, are they better? is that a gain?
If a person who is somewhat paranoid but has doubts about the validity of the paranoia becomes, as a result of scientology auditing, CERTAIN their paranoia is "real", is that an improvement?
If a person who now and then had the fleeting thought they might have been Mozart in a past life is, after auditing, absolutely convinced that they were Mozart in a past life, would that qualify as a positive emotional breakthrough?
If, as a result of auditing up through the OT levels, a person was convinced that they could fight fires at a distance using only their mind, and in fact were more effective at fighting fires that way that actual firefighters on the ground using fire trucks, hoses, water, fire retardant, etc. would that person's mental state as an "OT" be an improvement over what it was before the auditing?
Well, you are making a point of only mentioning negative outcomes, and then asking if they are gains. What if a person ceases having crying fits, becomes, less anxious about socializing, ceases having sexual dysfunction, etc.? Those would all be positive outcomes, IMO, and each of those has happened with people that I "audited". The types of gain available are highly idiosyncratic, due to the nature of the human mind. Not everyone with sexual dysfunction has that trouble stem from a traumatic past, or even a mental component, at all. Sometimes, things are purely physical.
Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
An ohm meter by itself measure ohms. An e-meter by itself does nothing.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
really? why is the needle moving around? why does it stop? you think it's just changing pressure of the hands? just sweat from the hands? it does SOMETHING. then again, I fall into the group of people that says they aren't needed.
Goodbye
Patron with Honors
Its the Definition of "Auditing" from the Technical Dictionary.
What other Source for a Definition of "Auditing" is there?
What organized Scientology Agenda could I possibly have since I'm a Freezone/Independent Scientologist?
I never made any Statements about "believing" any bulletim is the Truth, that's merely you putting Words into my Mouth. Since you were defining "Auditing" as "Authoritative Hypnosis" which is neither defined as such in the Tech Dictionary, nor any Part of my Experience, I thought I would point that out.
I could only reference the many Reasons LRH gave why "Auditing" failed to hit the Mark, but "Authorative Hypnosis" is not one of them, neither in my Experience, nor in anyone else's I have heard of.
I'm not sure what defintion of "Hypnosis" you are referring to. Several Dictionaries I have consulted seem to have different takes of it. And then they have the "state theory" and "non-state theory" per Wikipedia, but I see absolutely no correlation between auditing and hypnosis. Nevertheless, they are Theories, ie. differing Opinions on "Hypnosis". Keep also in mind, as I had mentioned previously, auditing works on the basis of Things turning on and then turning off when flattened. Perhaps hypnosis was turned on/contained by the Incident/Item you may have taken up in a Scientology Session, but auditing certainly is not hypnosis.
Are you saying because you recalled something, you deem it an altered State?
Well, its called Memory, in whatever Form, and its obviously not the same as looking out of your Eyeballs.
Auditing works on the Basis that Things turn on, and when the process is flattened, they turn off. Could a "Turn On" give you the Sense of an "Altered State"? I suppose so, but the auditing is not the altered State, but contained by the Incident/Item being turned on. Sounds more like you were left with incomplete auditing cycles, ie. turned on, but not turned off.
In Mental Institutions some Patients can be requested to recall Things that just happened an hour ago and the patient promptly lapses into States of Delusions. That would be a Condition of the Patient, not the request of the Recall.
Aside from establishing basal metabolism, obviously breathing once or keeping your Mouth open to the best of my knowledge is not Part of any mental/spiritual Practice either. Each uses the Tools in their given Fields to effect the End Results of their Practice/Profession.
But the Point I responded to in your Post dealt with your Claim that auditing is "dominating", and I responded that there is no such Thing in the Auditor's Code.
An Auditor controls the Session in the same Way a Carpenter controls his Power Tools, in that each has an intended, and desirable End Result. I had already earlier posted the Definition of "Auditing" and what its objectives are.
I'm not getting the Point of your Query.
After that one goes to see the Examiner, and what follows after that has nothing to do with auditing.
In the Freezone, when no Examiner is available, that is pretty much how it goes. You can get your Coat and Hat and that's all there is to it.
I understand where you are going with this. The CO$ Psychosis all around you before and after auditing. I could not agree with you more. You are inside PTS City, and you may be correct in that auditing does not work in such an environment. I left a long Time ago, long before severe Gestapo Scientology reared its ugly head, so it wouldn't be fair of me to presume to know of its current Workings.
Nevertheless, its highly unlikely that auditing in an unenturbulated Freezone environment would not work for you. Official Scientology is at this Point being run out of Dodge.
As ambiguously stated by various Dictionaries and Wikipedia.
OK. Practices I have never looked into, simply because I'm still winning after 18 Years using Scientology Tech.
Many Practitioners in the Freezone use the exact unadulterated original LRH Tech that the Church has since perverted. These "Realistic Examples" are entirely based on those Factors which prevent auditing from working on you specifically, ie., a person/dwarf who in your life constantly puts you down (Constantly invalidates you for example) or sabotages aspects in your life, or you are mixing some practice that actually, by evidence, actually impedes your case Gain such as the consumption of Drugs or Alcohol, etc. Unlike the Church, these Factors are not based on some CO$ Agenda or Policy, but what applies to you personally in order to get you the Gains to be had from auditing. A Freezone Auditor is only interested in your Life Improvement, he has no other Fish to fry.
From another Perspective:
You walk into the Org, the Reg tries to reel you in. You tell her tons of Lies to get her off your case = Truckload of Withholds.
She insists you buy = ARC Break
Book Store Officer wants to pawn yet another Book off on you. You lie telling him you have no Money = More Withholds.
Another Staff gives you FSM Quota for next week = Present Time Problem, since you don't want to lose Friends telling them you are even a Scientologist.
10 Event Callers same Day = ARC Breaks
IAS Attendance Mandatory = Present Time Problem
Applaud Gaudy Miscavige Speech with Plastic Face = Missed Withhold
Event Gang All-Night Reg Cycle that you need to = Wrong Indications, Suppression
You read a Freezone Webpage on DM Beatings = Overt
... ad infinitum.
What a theta Environment, eh? Aren't you gonna have fun next auditing Session.
You go PTS to the Church, and you won't have good Gains in Session.
In the Freezone, your Case is handled, not the one the Church slicks over you.
They use Bio Feedback Meters which are not proprietary Devices like E-Meters, and are not used in Conjunction with any Claims, which do not require FDA Blessings.
A TA of 2.0 measures 5,000 Ohms. 3.0 is 12,500 Ohms. You sure can measure any impedance by Ohms using just about any Galvanometer/Wheatstone Bridge.
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Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Oh really? Didn't you previously make the claim:
I would say there is a very, very good case for all FZ/Indie auditors to have prominent disclaimers all over their "bio-feedback" gizmos if they are going to claim that the use of these devices enhance survival, happiness and intelligence. Same for the actual auditing process itself which, given the scientific evidence to date, is about as useful as a carnival fortune telling booth.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
A Pertinent Post by Veda
Veda wrote:
"Usually, Scientologists can grasp the notion that "Black Scientology" might be used on "Suppressive Persons," but not the idea that Scientology's founder used "Black Scientology" on his own loyal followers. This is difficult to explain to Scientologists, since Scientology (Hubbard's teachings and "applied philosophy") is regarded as a "gift" from Hubbard for their benefit. Yet Scientology, as crafted by Hubbard, is a devious mix of "Black" and "White" Scientology, and this mixture is what makes Scientology a trap.
Currently, about as far as "Independent" and FreeZone" Scientologists can venture is to assert that corporate Scientology's current leader, David Miscavige, uses "Black Scientology." Beyond that, things become foggy for them.
In his confidential writings, Hubbard taught that Scientology's enemies should be subjected to "enemy tactics," and to the various mechanisms of the mind (and "reactive mind"), and Hubbard, in writings and lectures, would sometimes describe these and, on a few occasions (usually at lectures), even warn the wide eyed and eager Scientologists that some evil force (not him of course, but the communists, Nazis, psychiatrists, the "12 bankers," etc.) could use Scientology to enslave - such is "the power the tech," etc. FZ and Indy Scientologists are fond of quoting these warnings. This, while remaining subject to many of the manipulative ideas and methods woven into Scientology by its founder.
L. Ron Hubbard described himself as "Mankind's Greatest Friend," etc., so his writings and comments about "aberrative mechanisms" and "enemy tactics" never came across as a warning about himself. If anything, it made others more inclined to trust him.
For example, in Dianetics, what's "aberrative"? Something that equates to "survival." The "held down 7s" are "aberrative" because they're identified with the person's survival. "Survival," as a "mechanism" becomes "aberrative."
Even in 1950, Dianetics was presented as being a "race with the atomic bomb." The message was plain enough: Dianetics = Survival. No Dianetics = Doom.
And this continued into Scientology. One of many examples: In 1956, Hubbard wrote, "With Man now equipped with weapons sufficient to destroy all Mankind and Earth... The primary race on Earth is... the one being run between Scientology and the atomic bomb."
How many Scientologists read Hubbard's descriptions of Dianetics and Scientology as essential for Mankind's "Survival!" - and their own "Survival" - and thought, "Oh, Ron's using the 'Survival mechanism' to manipulate me" ?
Another example from 1950 Dianetics is the "ally computation." Someone comes out of the blue and helps another person, helps the other person in some way or other. The "help" could be indifferently offered, or insincerely offered, but if the needy person regards it as aiding in his "Survival!" (or well being, or the alleviation of pain or the attainment of pleasure or relief), then (so the theory goes) the "ally" mechanism is in place and in effect. For example, an uncle, who may not be a particularly nice fellow, gets his little nephew a glass of water when that nephew is sick in bed and thirsty. The uncle (in the mind of the little nephew) becomes an "ally," and the uncle become identified with "Survival!"
Now, who would have thought that "Mankind's Greatest Friend," on whom the "Survival!" of Mankind, and the "Survival!" of each person (Scientologists, through Ron's "Bridge") depended, would use the "ally computation" and the "Survival mechanism" in order to deceive, manipulate, and exploit? Nah, that could never happen.
However, it did happen, and not only years later, but sometimes the same day, or previous to Hubbard mentioning a deceptive, manipulative or destructive mechanism or tactic.
But it was disguised, and so wasn't recognized. Hubbard's warnings about the race between Dianetics or/and Scientology and the atomic bomb were regarded by Scientologists as warnings by their, and Mankind's, #1 "ally," L. Ron Hubbard. Who amongst Scientologists suspected? Yet, the warning noted above - from 1956 - was less than a year after Hubbard had published, and distributed, his fake "Russian Psychopolitics textbook" http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg (which of course denounced Dianetics), a "textbook" that, amongst the haughty "Russian Commie"-sounding rhetoric, and references to psychiatrists practicing lurid sex with their (unconscious) patients, "Pain-Drug-Hypnosis," shock treatment, lobotomies, etc., was a compendium of enemy ("Russian Communist") ideas and practices for "asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties."
From Hubbard's "Russian Textbook":
"The failure of Psychopolitics might well bring about the atomic bombing of the Motherland. The psychopolitical operative must succeed for his success means world peace... The end thoroughly justifies the means."
Even "Survival!" - used to manipulate - was mentioned in the fake "Russian Textbook":
"It is pointed out in many early Russian writings that this is a survival mechanism. It [the "Survival!" mechanism] has already been well and thoroughly used in the survival of Communism."
Hubbard's 1955 "Russian Textbook" was loaded with manipulative and exploitative ideas and practices, many of which were being used on Scientologists themselves - used on them by their "Greatest Friend" and ally, L. Ron Hubbard - ideas and practices which were, ultimately, from the 1960s onward, formally incorporated, by Hubbard, into Scientology doctrine and practice.
Yet, who suspected? Yet, it was right there. And because it was right there it was unthinkable."
Veda wrote:
"Usually, Scientologists can grasp the notion that "Black Scientology" might be used on "Suppressive Persons," but not the idea that Scientology's founder used "Black Scientology" on his own loyal followers. This is difficult to explain to Scientologists, since Scientology (Hubbard's teachings and "applied philosophy") is regarded as a "gift" from Hubbard for their benefit. Yet Scientology, as crafted by Hubbard, is a devious mix of "Black" and "White" Scientology, and this mixture is what makes Scientology a trap.
Currently, about as far as "Independent" and FreeZone" Scientologists can venture is to assert that corporate Scientology's current leader, David Miscavige, uses "Black Scientology." Beyond that, things become foggy for them.
In his confidential writings, Hubbard taught that Scientology's enemies should be subjected to "enemy tactics," and to the various mechanisms of the mind (and "reactive mind"), and Hubbard, in writings and lectures, would sometimes describe these and, on a few occasions (usually at lectures), even warn the wide eyed and eager Scientologists that some evil force (not him of course, but the communists, Nazis, psychiatrists, the "12 bankers," etc.) could use Scientology to enslave - such is "the power the tech," etc. FZ and Indy Scientologists are fond of quoting these warnings. This, while remaining subject to many of the manipulative ideas and methods woven into Scientology by its founder.
L. Ron Hubbard described himself as "Mankind's Greatest Friend," etc., so his writings and comments about "aberrative mechanisms" and "enemy tactics" never came across as a warning about himself. If anything, it made others more inclined to trust him.
For example, in Dianetics, what's "aberrative"? Something that equates to "survival." The "held down 7s" are "aberrative" because they're identified with the person's survival. "Survival," as a "mechanism" becomes "aberrative."
Even in 1950, Dianetics was presented as being a "race with the atomic bomb." The message was plain enough: Dianetics = Survival. No Dianetics = Doom.
And this continued into Scientology. One of many examples: In 1956, Hubbard wrote, "With Man now equipped with weapons sufficient to destroy all Mankind and Earth... The primary race on Earth is... the one being run between Scientology and the atomic bomb."
How many Scientologists read Hubbard's descriptions of Dianetics and Scientology as essential for Mankind's "Survival!" - and their own "Survival" - and thought, "Oh, Ron's using the 'Survival mechanism' to manipulate me" ?
Another example from 1950 Dianetics is the "ally computation." Someone comes out of the blue and helps another person, helps the other person in some way or other. The "help" could be indifferently offered, or insincerely offered, but if the needy person regards it as aiding in his "Survival!" (or well being, or the alleviation of pain or the attainment of pleasure or relief), then (so the theory goes) the "ally" mechanism is in place and in effect. For example, an uncle, who may not be a particularly nice fellow, gets his little nephew a glass of water when that nephew is sick in bed and thirsty. The uncle (in the mind of the little nephew) becomes an "ally," and the uncle become identified with "Survival!"
Now, who would have thought that "Mankind's Greatest Friend," on whom the "Survival!" of Mankind, and the "Survival!" of each person (Scientologists, through Ron's "Bridge") depended, would use the "ally computation" and the "Survival mechanism" in order to deceive, manipulate, and exploit? Nah, that could never happen.
However, it did happen, and not only years later, but sometimes the same day, or previous to Hubbard mentioning a deceptive, manipulative or destructive mechanism or tactic.
But it was disguised, and so wasn't recognized. Hubbard's warnings about the race between Dianetics or/and Scientology and the atomic bomb were regarded by Scientologists as warnings by their, and Mankind's, #1 "ally," L. Ron Hubbard. Who amongst Scientologists suspected? Yet, the warning noted above - from 1956 - was less than a year after Hubbard had published, and distributed, his fake "Russian Psychopolitics textbook" http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg (which of course denounced Dianetics), a "textbook" that, amongst the haughty "Russian Commie"-sounding rhetoric, and references to psychiatrists practicing lurid sex with their (unconscious) patients, "Pain-Drug-Hypnosis," shock treatment, lobotomies, etc., was a compendium of enemy ("Russian Communist") ideas and practices for "asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties."
From Hubbard's "Russian Textbook":
"The failure of Psychopolitics might well bring about the atomic bombing of the Motherland. The psychopolitical operative must succeed for his success means world peace... The end thoroughly justifies the means."
Even "Survival!" - used to manipulate - was mentioned in the fake "Russian Textbook":
"It is pointed out in many early Russian writings that this is a survival mechanism. It [the "Survival!" mechanism] has already been well and thoroughly used in the survival of Communism."
Hubbard's 1955 "Russian Textbook" was loaded with manipulative and exploitative ideas and practices, many of which were being used on Scientologists themselves - used on them by their "Greatest Friend" and ally, L. Ron Hubbard - ideas and practices which were, ultimately, from the 1960s onward, formally incorporated, by Hubbard, into Scientology doctrine and practice.
Yet, who suspected? Yet, it was right there. And because it was right there it was unthinkable."
AnonKat
Crusader
Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
AnonKat
Crusader
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Goodbye
Patron with Honors
I posted the Tech Dictionary Definition of "Auditing".
No Claim was made.
You do know what "Proprietary" means?
Bio Feedback Meters are not specifically designed for auditing, but the E-Meter is.
The Disclaimer on the back of E-Meters is the result of an FDA suit against the Church of Scientology for fraudulent medical claims.
Bio Feedback Meters are also used for relaxation training and muscle reeducation, as well as lab testing Devices for membrane proteins which act as channels to allow ions to pass through the essentially impenetrable cell membranes.
Why would those who use Bio Feedback Meters for entirely different Purposes which have nothing to do with either auditing or counseling require FDA Warnings?
Further, biofeedback devices not involving clinical conditions, do not fall under the FDA's regulations.
FDA regulations only require labelling of "intended uses", such as 'muscular rehabilitation'. This however does not limit its use for other Purposes.
Any Claims made, and I can't speak on behalf Freezone Auditors by any Stretch of the Imagination, would be on the Basis what EP LRH expected a given Auditing process to result in. No mention of the Meter would be made to the Client, in Fact he only sees the Cans he picks up.
You see, unlike the Church, Freezone Auditors are not selling proprietary Meters for any specific Purpose, nor make any Claims in Respect to that Meter.
To Date? You don't even have that. Virtually everything that has been tried to be pawned off as scientific evidence ended up being little more than gobbledygook rhetorics.
I doubt any Evidence will ever leave the Domain of the Testimonial, which of Course could always be steadfastly invalidated for some other Standard. But then who cares?
Hence, those that subjectively know it works will continue to use it.
No other Evidence needed for me, nor would anything to the contrary remotely concern me.
Auditing for me is not based on Data validating or invalidating its workability, but the Improvements I deem have occurred in my Life.
But then you can always invalidate that too. But then who cares.
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