Debbie's Interview

[Lone Star]

I found the interview disappointing, as she is obviously treading very carefully in what she says.
It reminds of people who were kidnapped for years and at the end say to interviewers, press etc that they were actually treated very well and "good" to them and speak about a sort of special relationship built toward the kidnappers.
I think there is even a tehnical term for this, maybe solmebody knows it.

For somebody who is meat to have been "tough" and very "OT", and I don't see much left of that.
She is insecure and not very eloquent either.
The amount of times she says "you know" is also baffling.
Her "stable datum" seems to be what she learnt in $cientology about history and how "great tyrants" were removed etc, which she attmpts to explain several times.
Where is the "tech" she learnt?
Why is her communication very vague for somebody who is "OT" ?
For somebody who had hundreds of people under her as a top exec.

When it comes to the crunch, after all these years of "learning how to know" she sums it up with somethingh about "Mr. Hubbard was good and kind", and Mr. Miscavige is not.
When he asks about how this can be changed, she cannot even bring herselef to the obvious conclusion of saying :
" well I think Mr. Miscavige must go"
for example.
She then tried to explain again how this had often happened before in history etc etc.

As somebody said before, she is the prefect example of a brainwashed cult member.

I beleive a nice cup of tea and sit down and chat with soembody like Tory Christman would do her good, but she is not reasdy for that yet.

This is not a woman who has planned "things into every detail", as some have said. IMO

Debbie kept sayin, "You know" because she was nervous. And she was nervous because she was trying hard not to tell the truth. For example when the reporter asked her, "Okay what are you going to do now? Rebuild your business?". The truthful answer would've been: "Well we're going to wait and see what the CoS does next with the courts. But my long term plan has all been worked out between myself, Marty, and Mike R. months ago. We are going to beat DM at his own legal game and when he's gone we three will move in and assume the chairmanship of RTC either as a Triumvirate, or on a rotating basis. We will create a kinder, gentler CoS as LRH clearly intended. (Nervous cough as she maintains seriousness). RPF, the Hole, disconnection, and fair game will all be cancelled. But as time goes on and we start having challengers to our leadership we will certainly institute the full LRH tech for handling suppression. But it will all be nicey nice and loving. (Cough).

 

[Lone Star]

Lone Star you're very new and yet you have learned so much, so fast.

Welcome! Despite being in a trash can etc.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm new to the forum, but I'm a veteran of the subject.

 

[GreyLensman]

The Scientology that Debbie envisions will not work becasue that is not how Scientology works.

What makes Scientology work is the promise of freedom and supreme spirituality that has not been attained yet in Scientology.

What makes Scientology work is the ethics technology which explains away any reason why it doesn't work and charges you for that as well.

What makes Scientology work is hard sell crush registration that brings in big money for mediocre services at best.

What makes Scientology work is Disconnection and secrecy about not only the tech, but what goes on.

What makes Scientology work is litigation as a weapon.

What makes Scientology work is enemies of Scientology to be handled and having enemies to handle.

What makes Scientology work is staff paid so little that the church can afford to operate paying 20 staff what a normal company pays one.

What makes Scientology work is lying.


Could Debbie do without all that and, more and still have a fucntioning church?

This is truth. Scientology as such never existed. It was always a created illusion, never a reality. What I thought I was part of was never really there. That becomes clear as time passes and any need for there to have been a value in that Church
Passes away as well.

There was never an organization working diligently toward a world without criminality or insanity. (Instead there were criminal acts and degradation and belittling and insanity and torture)

There was never a technology that could finally resolve the problems of the human mind. (There were pieces cobbled together some of which have value and which were assigned authorship to a psychopathic liar)

There was never a policy that would change the way organizations were run, that created a success that would be a shining beacon of hope to Arth...

You get the idea

 

[Free to shine]

Remember that Debbie's only real life experience is within scientology. She is only now finding out about "the wog world" and I imagine the last few years have been some kind of hell for her because she didn't want to leave, she was forced to leave to save her own life. Therefore much of her indoctrination is still in place, as her original email shows, and explains her need to believe in reformation.

Arnie Lerma's Steps out of scientology is very valid and many people get stuck at Step 3, as Debbie is. It is understandable, if sad and only time, personal safety and information that will change that.

I found it very telling how she turned to her lawyer so often, he seems a nice man and is obviously a safe person for her in the midst of unimaginable distress and confusion. She said she is only now finding out about the protection of the law and I well believe it.

While I can in no way condone any actions she took in the past that hurt other people, I can honestly say I have empathy for the woman I see in those videos, still struggling with 'trying not to say the wrong thing' (so much a part of scientology life), trying to 'keep her TRs in' and the raging dissonance that is evident to people who have experienced it. Here she is IN COURT and dealing with REPORTERS ('Merchants of Chaos') - to her it must be - the depths of depravity she has been trained to despise and avoid.

Her eyes tell the story, and I admire the courage this has taken and wish her well with eventual recovery and healing. There will be much she has to deal with... not the least what she did to others....remember we were all to some extent as brainwashed and recovery is possible.

 

[Boomima]

Thank-You, I just wrote up all my O/W's, cleared my MU's, and licked the bathroom floor, and now see that what you are saying is spot-on. Please accept my sincere apology for disrespecting LRH and questioning his unfailing wisdom.

I am disturbed that this made sense to me. You've been lurking too long when scientology speak makes sense.

 

[Infinite]

. . . <snip> . . . Disconnection was reinstated by HCO Bulletin of 10 September 1983, “PTSness and Disconnection.” The Bulletin noted that “Earlier, disconnection as a condition was cancelled,” and stated it was “hereby restored to use, in the hands of those persons thoroughly and standardly trained in PTS/SP tech.”

The fact that Hubbard tried to make it appear as if it was the individual concerned exercising their free right to disconnect rather than disconnection being a requirement of his cult is an argument in semantics. You cannot escape the fact that disconnection is, and has been since the 1960s, a practise endorsed, encouraged, and enforced within Scientology.

The only problem? It wasn’t written by LRH. According to a statement by the late Robert Vaughn Young, “…The directive that I wrote concerned the Scientology policy of ‘Disconnection.’ The order to do this came from David Miscavige. Miscavige said that we had to reinstitute the Policy of Disconnection and that I was to write the policy for this. I wrote it and it went through several revisions. It was not sent to Hubbard for his approval, but was issued into the Church of Scientology.”

Sure, but so what? If it was ever the intention of L Ron Hubbard for disconnection to cease one might reasonably ask why he did not address the other tech which he did write and which details how, why, when, and from whom to disconnect. Specifically:

Tape: 6505C18 “Organization and Ethics”

Tape: 6506C08 “Handling the PTS”

HCO PL 23 Dec. 65RA Rev. 10.9.83 SUPPRESSIVE ACTS, SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS

HCO PL 7 March 1965RB I, SUPPRESSIVE ACTS, SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS

HCO PL 5 Apr. 65 - HANDLING THE SUPPRESSIVE PERSON, THE BASIS OF INSANITY

HCO PL 7 Aug. 65 - SUPPRESSIVE PERSONS, MAIN CHARACTERISTICS OF

HCOPL 19 July 1965 (Issue II) – SEPARATION ORDER

Tape: 6608C02 “Suppressives and GAEs”

Tape: 6608C25 “The Antisocial Personality”

HCOB 27 Sept. 66 THE ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY THE ANTI-SCIENTOLOGIST

HCOB 24 Apr. 72 I C/S Series 79 PTS INTERVIEWS

HCO PL 3 May 72R Exec Series 12 Rev. 18.12.77 ETHICS AND EXECUTIVES

HCOB 10 Aug. 73 PTS HANDLING

HCO PL 15 Sept 73 HANDLING DISCONNECTIONS

HCOB 29 Dec. 78 THE SUPPRESSED PERSON RUNDOWN

HCOB 31 Dec. 78 II OUTLINE OF PTS HANDLING

HCOB 31 Dec. 78 III EDUCATING THE PTS THE FIRST STEP TOWARD HANDLING: PTS C/S-1

HCOPL 16 May 80 (Issue II) - ETHICS, PTS TYPE A, POLICY ON HANDLING ANTAGONISTIC SOURCES

HCOPL 16 May 80 (Issue II) - ETHICS, SUPPRESSIVE ACTS, SUPPRESSION OF SCIENTOLOGY AND SCIENTOLOGISTS

HCO PL 20 Oct. 81R PTS TYPE A HANDLING Rev. 10.9.83

HCOB 8 Mar. 83 HANDLING PTS SITUATIONS

. . . please stop lying about this subject. Disconnection is in Scientology's DNA.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/church-of-scientology-cancels-disconnection/

Disconnection was reinstated by HCO Bulletin of 10 September 1983, “PTSness and Disconnection.” ...

Oddly enough as I recall back when I was onlines in '79-'81, disconnection was still very much a part of the standard tech training packet in ethics. Odd that it should still be there if the status was officially cancelled, BB.

BTW, you are aware that lrh routinely lied & sought to misrepresent himself aren't you? Do you think that just might have a bearing on this issue?


Mark A. Baker

 

[degraded being]

Thanks for this.

I think you're right about Stockholm Syndrome.

It was kinda startling to see how inarticulate she was in the interview -- you'd expect a person who was once the head honcho of such a large operation as the FSO and who managed and commanded several hundred people, as well as a huge budget, to have more "presence" in an interview in a quiet room with a small handful of media reps -- wouldn't you?

The abuse she suffered is criminal, no doubt deeply affected her, and needs to be stopped NOW. But that's not what made Debbie Cook the person she is today. This is why I say (again and again and again) that

scientology "tech" is DANGEROUS. It messes up people's minds and here is the result.

Please don't anyone try and tell me that a young girl like she once was who had been given a proper education and had not been sucked up by Hubbard's mindfuck would have turned out this way.

The ACTUAL condition of someone who was once such a "power" is shocking to me. Scary, actually.

Can't say I'm "on her side" except in a most broad and impersonal way, as I'd be "on the side" of any human being who is coming back from serious suffering.

I hope she does the cult enormous damage whether intentionally or unintentionally, and I hope she gets rested and regains (or gains for the first time...) her health -- both physical and mental health.

If this is how it is, then good luck on "rescuing" those in the Hole at INT who are stuck there because they are even more brainwashed.

I thought that some of her inarticulateness was because she was being super cautious about not saying anything she was not supposed to say outside the courtroom, especially given that the whole thing so far has been about not being able to say certain things for fear of getting legally hogtied if she did. I thought that some of the reporters questions were a bit "grey", i.e. phrased in such a way that made it sound like she would possibly immediately be talking about things that maight be off limits. That's why she sometimes looked at Jeffreys of waited for cues from him. I also got the idea that with restrictions off she would have been a lot more fluent. (But I will look again).

I had "stockholm syndrome" screaming at me in my mind as I watched. It seems like an amazing interview to me, because in a strange way she is so very articulate in presenting her unintended message, "I am a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome". That message was so clear....hence the headshaking body language of her attorney, as you, I think, pointed out.
She sat there and said quite openly, (paraphrase) "I tried (or am trying) not to tell you all these bad things because you (everybody) will think badly of scientology, but it was all caused by one person...(DM)".....but in the "background" she knows all the PR flaps and SITS that happened under hubbard, she knows about all sorts of "handlings" she knows about some of her public getting the rough deal on disconnecting, and all the staff who suffered at the hands of hubbard.

Yet she did not seem to consider that this position...loading it all on to DM might be considered highly improbable or frankly ridiculous and that she should defend it a bit or use some persuasion to support it. She really did seem to be totally naive about where she was....in the WOG world, in a courthouse, talking to NEWSPAPER reporters. Like she has a 1970 scientologist attitude.......
It looks like she has no idea of how her bubble sits in WOG land. She thinks nobody knows nothin so she can just deal with non-scio public as though WE are the ones in the bubble.

I'm not a psychologist, but I thought that interview might well be an excellent video for showing exactly what SS looks like from the horse's mouth. It may be used by the media too for that "classic" feel of SS that it has.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Thank-You, I just wrote up all my O/W's, cleared my MU's, and licked the bathroom floor, and now see that what you are saying is spot-on. Please accept my sincere apology for disrespecting LRH and questioning his unfailing wisdom.

That's a bit better.

I am reviewing your amends project, which appears to be incomplete. Do you happen to have clearing with a single tree in your area?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I also put ethics on myself for questioning LRH and COB. After doing all the requisite write-ups I had a couple of neighbors make me stand in a trash can, put a sign that said "Faggot" around my neck, pour cold water on me while punching and slapping me silly.

I'm now making arrangements to go to Flag with all of my credit cards ready for swiping by multiple regges.

Very Well Done!

Your next technical action is Solo Trash Can, where you will not need neighbors and will be able to advance on your Bridge at home by yourself.

However, please keep the faggot sign, ice water and prepare to hit yourself in the face repeatedly until you have wins beyond your wildest dreams. It is not a short level.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

This is truth. Scientology as such never existed. It was always a created illusion, never a reality. What I thought I was part of was never really there. That becomes clear as time passes and any need for there to have been a value in that Church
Passes away as well.

There was never an organization working diligently toward a world without criminality or insanity. (Instead there were criminal acts and degradation and belittling and insanity and torture)

There was never a technology that could finally resolve the problems of the human mind. (There were pieces cobbled together some of which have value and which were assigned authorship to a psychopathic liar)

There was never a policy that would change the way organizations were run, that created a success that would be a shining beacon of hope to Arth... You get the idea

Cool post! But, do you mind keeping your voice down, because...

​

 

[freethinker]

People who are released from prison after spending most of there lives there, often re-offend just to get back to what they understand. Life on the outside is confusing and uncomfortable as well as strange.

I can supply the words. This sort of thing is all too common from my perspective of people and their behavior. Sadly, it is all too common.

People create THEIR OWN mental prisons. Everybody does this to some degree, but it really matters and becomes apparent in severe situations like "true believers" who allow their IDEAS (ideals, theories, ideology, etc.) to supercede all observation and decision-making.

These sorts of people accept some set of ideas as true (just as Hubbard describes with "agreement" and "fixed ideas"), they consider these ideas to be SENIOR to everything else, and at that point they cease having any reason to or concern to look, observe, gain more information, arrive at facts or "verify what they believe". It is simply a case of "mind over matter" - but I don't mean this in any "positive sense".

The fantasy, the delusion, the belief system, the ideology is KING. It is the "stable datum" around which all else revolves. For people like this, such as the common over-indoctrinated Scientologist, they first REFUSE to look at anything that might interrupt the fantasy/delusion, and second, anything they perceive or experience that does possibly present a contradiction is assimilated/re-interpreted in some altered and distorted manner so that the fantasy/delusion is maintained and kept intact.

Debbie's IDEAS take precedence over any perceptions and experiences of reality. Thus, it is truly "mind over matter". Delusion over facts. Fantasy over actual observable events in space and time. Scientologists are taught to be vague/abstract thinkers. Their worldviews are entirely immersed and wrapped up in extensive "ideas" (thinkingness). And, such people often eradicate and/or suppress many ACTUAL observations and experiences from their minds so that the "belief system" remains fully functional.

Mantaining such delusions require amazing feats of mental gymnastics, leaps of logic, unwillingness to view what is right in front of you, and a DEEP UNWAVERING FAITH in the dogma of the religion, political party or even some aspect of "science". The mechanics of "cognitive dissonance" definitely are involved with the psychology of such people.

 

[Boojuum]

The Tao of Debbie

Debbie just looks worn out and emotionally drained. Her years in Scn show. She looks like a Scieno exec, not a wog exec. Bad hair and bad clothes and hunched over and meek. When she cried in court, it was touching. She is a victim. It was apparent that DM had humiliated her and THAT memory will not go away and I would suspect that THAT is exactly the worm that kept turning that caused her to write the famous email and THAT is the reason why she was willing to testify in court.

One doesn't easily get over humiliation. It breeds lifetime enemies. Payback's a bitch, DM.

I cringe at Debbie's childlike view of the world. It's like watching your favorite actor give a live interview--they were much brighter in the movie. Debbie was great when she played the Scieno exec role. Honest, effective, efficient, ruthless and caring. In her interview, she was so geniune and sincerely happy with the help that the lawyer had given her. It was like a revelation to her that she had any legal rights at all.

She has my sympathy, trying to start over at age 50 with fibro myalgia is no picnic.

But Debbie's real problem is the deep belief she has in LRH's words. Trying to bootstrap yourself up using the green volumes is a tough road. Debbie must have been considered one of the very best execs in Scientology yet you see a broken person whose business is decimated and who is keen on letting the world know that she has no money. Not exactly a promo piece for the FEBC.

Debbie isn't done. She has to have seen that Scientology justice is destructive and without a wog court she'd be in deep doodoo.

My hat is off to her for letting the world know about the abuse at INT. Hip Hip.

 

[Type4_PTS]

That's a bit better.

I am reviewing your amends project, which appears to be incomplete. Do you happen to have clearing with a single tree in your area?

Trees?









As you can see from this picture there are no single trees in this part of Florida I'm in:

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax!
That's a bit better.

I am reviewing your amends project, which appears to be incomplete. Do you happen to have clearing with a single tree in your area?

Trees?



As you can see from this picture there are no single trees in this part of Florida I'm in:

Oh, no trees. Well in that case I suppose you can make it go right and run around a crater 8 hours a day. It unsticks and blows stuck points where a being is hung up on the time track.

Like the stuck points when you were healthy and sane.

 

[Type4_PTS]

".....I suppose you can make it go right and run around a crater 8 hours a day. It unsticks and blows stuck points where a being is hung up on the time track.

Thank-you so much for my next C/S.

I am diligently searching for craters and will get back to you on this as soon as I've successfully located one.

 

[asteroid]

...
This is what Hubbard created, maintained, lured people into with deception, and enforced. This is why some "might think ill of LRH," etc.

I hear you. And I respect your viewpoint.

I also see great irony in this quote:

"No man, who is not himself honest, can be free - he is in his own trap. When his deeds cannot be disclosed, then he is a prisoner; he must withhold himself from his fellows and is a slave to his own conscience."--Scientology: A New Slant on Life

And yet I got gains. I saw and experienced positive effects from the tech. So I continue to use what works for me.

I don't claim that you should come to the conclusions I did. I loudly appreciate our freedom to disagree and our willingness to learn from one another. All I ask is respect for my coming to a different decision than you did.

 

[asteroid]

Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post

(Quoted)

If you dig through some ancient ethics folders, you would find that they would often explicitly state that the subject of the ethics order was to disconnect from one or more other parties who would be named in the ethics order, and that reinstatement to good standing would not happen until that had been done. THAT was disconnection as a condition.

Ah. Thank you. First time I ever saw that explained.

I agree with Veda on this.

A specific example:

I knew someone in the Miami Org who had paid for a bunch of auditing. She and her husband were going through a tough time and were having a lot of arguments. Every time Debi went into session she spent a lot of time flying her ruds -- that is, dealing with the present-time upset rather than the topic she was there to deal with (the drug rundown or grades or whatever).

At some point the C/S put through a disconnection order for Debi to disconnect from Lane for the period of time she was going through the auditing cycle. The idea was to get her through the services she paid for. Then she could get back with her husband and they could work out their problems... or, in this case, not. They got divorced.

Sometimes, when tempers are high, we tell the combatants: Just walk away for a while. Settle down. When you're ready to talk like grownups, come back and we'll deal with this. I think that was the origin of disconnection... before it was generalized into, "If someone upsets you, just walk away" but with far more damning justification ("You are the SP on my case!").

 

[Veda]

I hear you. And I respect your viewpoint.

I also see great irony in this quote:


And yet I got gains. I saw and experienced positive effects from the tech. So I continue to use what works for me.

I don't claim that you should come to the conclusions I did. I loudly appreciate our freedom to disagree and our willingness to learn from one another. All I ask is respect for my coming to a different decision than you did.

I don't think you quite understand my viewpoint. If you have the time - it will take a day or two to read and digest - go back and re-read the 'Brainwashing Manual Parallels' post, and read all its links. It's a lot of material, and it's not all negative, despite the title.

It does not preclude the possibility of gains, in fact gains are a key part of the trap.

Using the old glue analogy, IMO, Scientology, as designed by its founder, consists of two main aspects: the solvent (truths, abreaction/catharsis/"key-out" etc.), and the lacquer (the sea of words, half truths, falsehoods, smoke and mirrors, gimmicks, tricks, manipulation, etc.) In the proper ratio, these combine to make a mind-glue that sticks a person to Scientology. Currently, Miscavige has screwed up the ratio of solvent and lacquer with too much lacquer and not enough solvent. (Without solvent, glue doesn't "work.")

As simply as I can state it, here's my view on the difficulty re. examining the topic of Scientology.

IMO, those who perceive Scientology's negative core often can't see the positives that - amongst the hype and soft manipulation - speckle the outer display layer of the subject. Their explanations are often incomplete, as they can't see those parts of the display coating that are truly positive.

Those who perceive the positives - in the outer display layer - often are unable to see the negatives at its core. Their explanations tend to be extremely naive.

Conveying the idea that there is both a positive outer display coating which is ultimately subordinate, and also a negative hidden core which is ultimately dominant, can be difficult. It seems that the laws of nature, the laws of the human mind, and perhaps the laws of the human nervous system make recognizing both aspects difficult.

Scientology is a secretive and manipulative doctrine with a truth-coating. The truth-coating is displayed while the negatives are often hidden or disguised; or, when they no longer can be denied, are rationalized or "spun."

The "Scientology package" is both positive and negative. Scientology is a carefully crafted (by its founder) mix of "Black Scientology" and "White Scientology," resulting in Scientology.

Since the negatives are hidden, disguised, or denied, it becomes necessary to focus on the negatives. However, I've also acknowledged and spent time describing the positives.

 

[freethinker]

Scientology, the venus flytrap of life. Sweet smelling but deadly if you get too close.