Did Hub have any original, good, ideas?

[I told you I was trouble]

I am certainly not trying to fix, change or alter to my way of thinking anybody. When I get a few tons of shit dropped on my head I will spit a bit. None of the bad situations that many have endured are Scientology. YES, org staff many times are pure evil at times. I am not justifying any of their actions and condemn them with the rest. The COS is not Scientology. I don't care how many copyrights or trademarks they have.

I really don't understand how you could think that the cofs is not scientology, that makes no sense at all to me and I can't see the point in trying to separate the two ... but just out of interest, what actually is scientology to you ... a religion/ an 'applied workable philosophy'/ a kind of therapy ... something else entirely?

What is it that you use or like or feel the need to protect?

 

[TomKat]

Unfortunately, Hubbard needed to start a dishonest and ruthless cultic organization to "smash his name into history."

I think people make too much of Hubbard's magickal affirmations

 

[TomKat]

To my simple mind, seems like Hubbard compiled many ideas from ancient times and the more
recent spiritualism and psychology of the 1800's and early 1900's, then rewrote and reformatted
them with the popular commercial spin of the day: exact science and engineering.

Well, an awful lot of his ideas in the 50s were derived from computer analogies, not just DMSMH, but concepts such as terminals and comm lines... I wonder how much of his drive to understand the mind had to do with trying to cure his own schizoid tendencies? Psych majors in college are often driven by the same desire.

 

[strativarius]

Well, an awful lot of his ideas in the 50s were derived from computer analogies, not just DMSMH, but concepts such as terminals and comm lines... I wonder how much of his drive to understand the mind had to do with trying to cure his own schizoid tendencies? Psych majors in college are often driven by the same desire.

Sorry to nitpick, but I don't think 'terminals' and 'comm lines' are computer analogies. Computers weren't ubiquitous in the 50's the way they are today.

 

[TomKat]

Sorry to nitpick, but I don't think 'terminals' and 'comm lines' are computer analogies. Computers weren't ubiquitous in the 50's the way they are today.

Computers and adding machines (with "held down 7s") run on electricity with lines and terminals. The need to understand the mind via a perfectly linear computer analogy suggests some desperation to me -- I was fairly confused about myself as a teen, but never tried to understand myself in those stark terms.

 

[strativarius]

Computers and adding machines (with "held down 7s") run on electricity with lines and terminals. The need to understand the mind via a perfectly linear computer analogy suggests some desperation to me -- I was fairly confused about myself as a teen, but never tried to understand myself in those stark terms.

I'm sorry to labour the point, perhaps I'm just bored this evening, but in the 50's most adding machines were mechanical and not electrical. The 'held down 7's' made perfect sense to me at the time though.

Railways run on electricity with lines and terminals but they have nothing to do with the mind.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I think people make too much of Hubbard's magickal affirmations

Au contraire, bon ami.

These were written in the very late 40's. They show the inner mental workings of troubled man
beset by many personal flaws, not unlike many of us during some stages of our lives. A normal,
garden variety "homo sap," if you will.

Five years later, by 1952 in Philadelphia, Ron claimed to have visited many other universes,
discovered all the basic secrets of the universe and life, and touted many incredible OT powers.

I had listened to all the PDC lectures five times through, the first thirty ten times through, so I can
say I knew them cold. I knew exactly what he claimed.

How did he go from a "normal" to an advanced operating thetan in just five years?

Once I found the affirmations, I tried to locate his path to his godlike state. I realized that there
was none. He knowingly made all this up, was extremely delusional, lived in a pretend personal
world, or was just a spinner of tall tales. Take your pick.

His ascent was simply impossible.

I think the affirmations are very important. They gave me the evidence long ago that I was conned.
It became an indisputable fact. And trust me, I was one of his biggest believers for the longest time.

Affirmations . . . a veritable smoking gun.

I was also one of the very first citizen researchers to have located the Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters
from 1946-51. I had contacted the library at UC Santa Cruz, where they were archived, and had them
send me copies of the over 100 pages of private correspondence. I read them over very carefully.

I realized Hubbard went from full-blown "aberee" in the late 40's to (supposedly by '52) full-blown
operating thetan with myriad super powers essentially overnight. The penny had dropped, as they
say, for me in an instant . . . again.

Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters . . . a second veritable smoking gun.

Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary), LOL

 

[F.Bullbait]

5x through PDC? I guess you are fully hatted...

 

[Koot]

I really don't understand how you could think that the cofs is not scientology, that makes no sense at all to me and I can't see the point in trying to separate the two ... but just out of interest, what actually is scientology to you ... a religion/ an 'applied workable philosophy'/ a kind of therapy ... something else entirely?

What is it that you use or like or feel the need to protect?

It is a philosophy with applications designed to demonstrate/show a person actual things about themselves and others that make life better. It is in books, tapes, vids. It is the record of the results of many thousands of hours of experimentation involving hundreds of people. If you have studied it, you know it is a huge work spanning decades with changes all the way. It is not the only way to better self and life but it is a way.


I don't feel the need to protect anything at this time. Life is pretty good right now. CHEERS!

 

[Koot]

Au contraire, bon ami.

These were written in the very late 40's. They show the inner mental workings of troubled man
beset by many personal flaws, not unlike many of us during some stages of our lives. A normal,
garden variety "homo sap," if you will.

Five years later, by 1952 in Philadelphia, Ron claimed to have visited many other universes,
discovered all the basic secrets of the universe and life, and touted many incredible OT powers.

I had listened to all the PDC lectures five times through, the first thirty ten times through, so I can
say I knew them cold. I knew exactly what he claimed.

How did he go from a "normal" to an advanced operating thetan in just five years?

Once I found the affirmations, I tried to locate his path to his godlike state. I realized that there
was none. He knowingly made all this up, was extremely delusional, lived in a pretend personal
world, or was just a spinner of tall tales. Take your pick.

His ascent was simply impossible.

I think the affirmations are very important. They gave me the evidence long ago that I was conned.
It became an indisputable fact. And trust me, I was one of his biggest believers for the longest time.

Affirmations . . . a veritable smoking gun.

Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary), LOL

I thought something along those lines myself. How did he get that OT stuff when he wasn't even clear till St Hill days??

 

[guanoloco]

I think people make too much of Hubbard's magickal affirmations

I think they don't make enough of them.

To me they're an index to his maturity level. A man on a quest to solve the mind and aberration would have a mountain of internal dialogue about others.

This is all about self with a goals list of an adolescent delinquet - men are slaves, women are lusting for him, power and money and sex.

It's what thug rapstars sell to gangsta teens. Many who wise up by their 30s. Ron's still going for the bling.

In a time of one's life when he should be thinking about his kids' college, etc., he's masturbating in a Satanic free sex cult writing this stuff...trying to invoke the anti-Christ.

In 1945 he was 34.

None of those writings are concerned with helping anyone.

His writings to the public go on and on and on about his quest to help mankind.

 

[Veda]

It is a philosophy with applications designed to demonstrate/show a person actual things about themselves and others that make life better. It is in books, tapes, vids.

Attempts to falsely create the impression that Scientology is an open - not secretive - subject.

It is the record of the results of many thousands of hours of experimentation involving hundreds of people. It is in books, tapes, vids.

Attempt at asserting plausible deniability of any kooky or repugnant parts of Scientology as merely being a "record of results of many hours of experimentation," etc.

If you have studied it, you know it is a huge work spanning decades with changes all the way. It is not the only way to better self and life but it is a way.

A "huge work," much too big for almost anyone to fully grasp, plus it keeps changing, thus, if someone finds something strange or objectionable, it's easy to locate some part of Scientology that says the opposite.

These are PR responses. Scientologists are conditioned to repeat such responses automatically. Properly conditioned Scientologists are expected to feel, deep down, that their literal survival depends on repeating such PR.

 

[lotus]

Au contraire, bon ami.

These were written in the very late 40's. They show the inner mental workings of troubled man
beset by many personal flaws, not unlike many of us during some stages of our lives. A normal,
garden variety "homo sap," if you will.

Five years later, by 1952 in Philadelphia, Ron claimed to have visited many other universes,
discovered all the basic secrets of the universe and life, and touted many incredible OT powers.

I had listened to all the PDC lectures five times through, the first thirty ten times through, so I can
say I knew them cold. I knew exactly what he claimed.

How did he go from a "normal" to an advanced operating thetan in just five years?

Once I found the affirmations, I tried to locate his path to his godlike state. I realized that there
was none. He knowingly made all this up, was extremely delusional, lived in a pretend personal
world, or was just a spinner of tall tales. Take your pick.

His ascent was simply impossible.

I think the affirmations are very important. They gave me the evidence long ago that I was conned.
It became an indisputable fact. And trust me, I was one of his biggest believers for the longest time.

Affirmations . . . a veritable smoking gun.

I was also one of the very first citizen researchers to have located the Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters
from 1946-51. I had contacted the library at UC Santa Cruz, where they were archived, and had them
send me copies of the over 100 pages of private correspondence. I read them over very carefully.

I realized Hubbard went from full-blown "aberee" in the late 40's to (supposedly by '52) full-blown
operating thetan with myriad super powers essentially overnight. The penny had dropped, as they
say, for me in an instant . . . again.

Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters . . . a second veritable smoking gun.

Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary), LOL

Exactly.
That is well said what I would have have like to properly reply.

But hey..you can't deny people their illusions and cognitive dissonance.

Seriiously Hubtard would have written ' I am a fucking asshole pahtological narcissistic liar
and they would still run their ron's org to prais eron the Humanitarian...

In french: Au contraire bon ami shall be written: Au contraire mon ami
and I love when blokes say that!

Regards
Lotus

 

[lotus]

Magical affirmations...

You guys are funny!

They were ''secret'' affirmations to be used as self-hypnosis
and speak of the real motivations of an individuel as to his wish on how to work out his futur.

Those are very intimate wishes....

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Tell you what, Birdy, you provide non-Scientology documentation that shows anyone in the real world has used and found any of this useful. No anecdotes, no stories, nothing from TrueBelieverLand -- only pure non-Scientology documentation showing any of this exact "tech" has any use outside of Scientology.

You know why you won't find any such documentation? Because people in the real world have better ways of doing things. Hubbard may have created his "tech" (or at least copyrighted it) but it isn't valuable or even useful in the real world.

Well, Bill...

In what you call "the real world" you can't find anyone who used it because someone has to go into the Scn/Dn world to get any.

I still know what I've done with it Bill. I've done it outside of the Scn/Dn world and my statement is documentation

There was a very significant moment after I trained in SF before I joined staff at FCDC. I was in Boston hanging out some at the Cambridge mission where one evening Bobby Ford ran an old Fifties group process called "The Infinite Space Process" which I found rather impressive.

One evening a couple weeks later my ace henchman Billy Martin and I were visiting one his fellow ironworkers. Steve and Bill were in the kitchen doubtlessly collaborating on some sort of nefarious mischief which was the essence of their friendship and I was in the living room talking with Steve's rather lovely but somewhat peripetetic wife Carol. She was asking what I was doing and among other things I mentioned my study of auditing and w/o much discussion of what it is I offered to demonstrate a group process. I ran the seven simple commands, she opened her big blue eyes which then had a certain extra measure of charm to them and said "My head feels clear. I had electroshock treatment years ago and my head has felt stuffed up ever since but now it feels clear."

Virgin territory Bill

Unindoctrinated, uninformed, no prepartion of any kind; no discussion of psychiatric crimes, di nada

And This Is A Document (signed) William Birdwood

 

[Clay Pigeon]

It has been almost 70 years since Hubbard wrote his "miraculous breakthrough" Dianetics. It has been over 30 years since Hubbard died. Look around. The ONLY thing Hubbard is known for, when he is known at all, is that he created a wacky UFO cult that a lot of people have escaped from. He might be remembered for that, but I doubt that opprobrium will last after Scientology itself has gone.

The rest of his "tech"? Seriously, none of it was ever important or known of by 99.99999999999999999% of the world. As I said before, nothing Hubbard said is of any importance -- and the rest of the world agrees.

I get a general impression Bill, that you have never been subject to the depradations of psychiatry...

As I have.

And many of those who escaped passing through this board have spoken well of auditing

You can speak for yourself knowing many have a similar cast of mind

But...

You are making false claim to unanimity

Just for example, a few years ago pushing hack in Boston I picked up a middleaged man going to 478 Beacon Street a few doors down from the Boston org I went north on Hereford and as I turned left on Beacon I pointed to the org and asked him what he thought of his neighbors. He said "I like Hubbard's work all right. I don't like what they've done with it.

 

[Bill]

Well, Bill...

In what you call "the real world" you can't find anyone who used it because someone has to go into the Scn/Dn world to get any.


<blablabla>

Unindoctrinated, uninformed, no prepartion of any kind; no discussion of psychiatric crimes, di nada

And This Is A Document (signed) William Birdwood

Look, I know you aren't that stupid. Thousands of people have "gone into" Scientology and have then come back out. Some, like you, still believed that the "tech" is good. People have gone on to other endeavors, some taking that belief with them. So, if the "tech" were useful in the real world, it would have been picked up and used. The real world is like that. It doesn't care where something has come from if it is useful.

So your disingenuous evasion of the question doesn't fly. If any of Hubbard's "tech" were useful, it would have been picked up and used. It wasn't picked up and it wasn't used THEREFORE, ipso facto, none of it was found useful in the real world.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Look, I know you aren't that stupid. Thousands of people have "gone into" Scientology and have then come back out. Some, like you, still believed that the "tech" is good. People have gone on to other endeavors, some taking that belief with them. So, if the "tech" were useful in the real world, it would have been picked up and used. The real world is like that. It doesn't care where something has come from if it is useful.

So your disingenuous evasion of the question doesn't fly. If any of Hubbard's "tech" were useful, it would have been picked up and used. It wasn't picked up and it wasn't used THEREFORE, ipso facto, none of it was found useful in the real world.

That is an interesting argument

Of course, sometimes and places bits and pieces have been picked up; it is no longer uncommon to find psychologists willing to do "past life regressions"

And of course "Psychedelic" means "mind manifesting" which is of course essentially "OT"

I see you underlined "believed"

Certainly the significant thing about Carol was that there was no belief on her part; the process produced good result.

The real world doesn't always pick up quickly even on things which are easily demonstrated in material terms

Are you familiar with Anton Semmelweiss?

And another factor is CoS jealously holds onto the copyrights and blocks any attempt to do workable things with Hubbard's work they can't control and feed upon

 

[TomKat]

I think they don't make enough of them.

To me they're an index to his maturity level. A man on a quest to solve the mind and aberration would have a mountain of internal dialogue about others.

This is all about self with a goals list of an adolescent delinquet - men are slaves, women are lusting for him, power and money and sex.

He was doing magick, which attempts to create an effect in the world using only the power of imagination and will. There's nothing very mature about declaring things and saying "so mote it be!" but I'm sure there are a lot of people over 40 practicing witchcraft in the US. He experienced firsthand that power when Jack Parsons called on Mars to shipwreck LRH in the Gulf after stealing Parson's yacht and girlfriend. Then he spent the next 20 or so years trying to dissect and understand the power of the mind and spirit with a scientific mindset. And that was original!

 

[TomKat]

Tell you what, Birdy, you provide non-Scientology documentation that shows anyone in the real world has used and found any of this useful. No anecdotes, no stories, nothing from TrueBelieverLand -- only pure non-Scientology documentation showing any of this exact "tech" has any use outside of Scientology.

You know why you won't find any such documentation? Because people in the real world have better ways of doing things. Hubbard may have created his "tech" (or at least copyrighted it) but it isn't valuable or even useful in the real world.

I'm not sure you live in the real world. If someone gets confused and finds a stable datum to get out of that confusion, is that going to be DOCUMENTED somewhere? If someone is sad and "takes a walk" extroverting their attention, is that going to be DOCUMENTED in say, the New York Times? Do you imagine there are scientists studying the positive effects of scientology and writing it up in some professional journal? Is that the world you live in?