Did Hub have any original, good, ideas?

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Meester Clay Pidgeon - if scientology worked - wouldn't the orgs be packed, overflowing even? If word got out that scientology could deliver what it promised you couldn't keep people away. Am I not correct?

The answer is right in the pl Keeping Scientology Working - You can only be upbraided for lack of results.

That's the funny thing about having to M-7 that pl multiple times - it never sunk in that the fatal flaw in all of Scientology can so simply be stated, and what is worse, overlooked by the bulk of Scio. adherents.

Sure, there are wins here and there, I got plenty of them. But the eps that Scientology promised? Tumbleweeds blowing through the orgs reception.

HOWEVER! An original Hubbard idea? I would think perhaps power processing might qualify - or creative processing - or objectives - or listing and nulling. I think he had a bunch of original ideas such as GPMs, R2-12, 3M & other goals listing stuff but I also don't know if they were all that fruitful.
There are some oldtimers who swear by that stuff, and believe Hubbs gave it the deep 6 and then ran with implant GPMs such as found in CC, OT2, OT3 R-6 implant. :confused:

I must say, that I was never at Saint Hill in it's haydays and I don't know how many of those processes were the fruit of his students genius minds - perhaps Roger, Veda or some of the others have a better understanding to their genesis. But if they were his or someone else's ideas, workable or not, they are still pretty creative stuff.

Mimsey
Well Mims...

It was actually pretty lively when I was in.

The second week I was on staff at FCDC we set a new record with a CGI of $22K breaking the $13K record set in the 50's when Ron ran the place. that record lasted one week and broken for a third straight week going over $40K and it mostly stayed between $40 and $70K all the time I was there. The Academy filled and a second room was added, it filled and a third was added. One Saturday morning I walked into the D of P's office and there were 50, five-oh paid intensives on the scheduling board.

We worked hard and long but by god we had some fun.

And some of that fun involved things apparently of an "OT" nature

A handful of PC's got refunds but no one who bought training asked their money back

But...

"OT" is a peak experience and unpredictable. And people are as fallible as "OT"s as are dull denizens of the mundane world. And what arrived at FCDC from the Apollo often seemed to have a broomstick stuck up it's butt. John Brodie was one of the wondrous success stories of the time but Phil Spickler was Declared so John stopped returning CoS phone calls

and on, and on...

A Teacher can deliver Teaching

Learning must be delivered by the student...


But once upon a time a hiillbilly from the white mountains came upon the jeweled hilt of a sword protruding from a large stone and it yielded to his grasp and he drew it ou and raised it to the sun and for a brief moment...

...CAMELOT!!!
 

Veda

Sponsor
As far as I am concerned , Books, tapes, and vids are all there is.

-snip-
That's absurd, as it would exclude the OT levels, and all other confidential explanations and instructions from Hubbard, which are extensive. However it's not surprising that you'd say it as it's a standard Scientology cult PR response.

You went into Scientology to become totally free and you were implanted by Scientology.

__________________​


From Hubbard's 1946 (to himself) 'Affirmations':

Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...
Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.

__________


bro-human-eval-2005.jpg


 

TomKat

Patron Meritorious
:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: You definitely don't live in the real world! Seriously! :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

OK, I realize you are pretending to be stupid, but I don't think you really are. I'm obviously talking about significant bits of Hubbard's "tech", not the minor "take a walk" stuff you pretend I'm referencing. If it (significant bits of "tech") was useful in the real world, you would recognize the techniques, procedures, formulas, etc. in books, references, papers, etc. And it isn't there.

It isn't there because, in the real world, where stuff has to actually work, it wasn't found useful.
And yet people outside of Scn continue to do past life regressions, exorcisms, all kinds of other things in the real world that are found useful, as well as what I mentioned.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
And yet people outside of Scn continue to do past life regressions, exorcisms, all kinds of other things in the real world that are found useful, as well as what I mentioned.
You think past lives is exclusive to Scientology? Past lives as a subject has been around for thousands of years. You think exorcism is Hubbard's "tech"? Exorcisms are hundreds of years old and similar "casting out" has been around for thousands of years.

Yeah "all kinds of other things"... what specific, identifiable Hubbard "tech"?

Believers will believe.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
You think past lives is exclusive to Scientology? Past lives as a subject has been around for thousands of years. You think exorcism is Hubbard's "tech"? Exorcisms are hundreds of years old and similar "casting out" has been around for thousands of years.

Yeah "all kinds of other things"... what specific, identifiable Hubbard "tech"?

Believers will believe.
Heh, I started to post an answer and you beat me to it. But it was essentially what you said:
(I'll post it below anyhow, so as to not waste my 90 seconds of research):D


And yet people outside of Scn continue to do past life regressions, exorcisms, all kinds of other things in the real world that are found useful, as well as what I mentioned.

[bcolor=#ccffff]But people have been doing those things since ancient times![/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]How does pointing it out that people are doing those things today show that Hubbard's tech is being used outside of the Scientology bubble?[/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]From the Association for Regression and Reincarnation Research:[/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]The practice of Past-Life-Regression Therapy has a history that goes back till ancient times. Examples of regression practice during ancient times are the Greek dream incubation centers, Greek and Egyptian Mystery schools, Prati-Prasav (references to which can be found in the Vedic literature of ancient India), Jati Smaran (the name given to past-life recall in Jain scriptures) etc. References of past-life recall also exist in Buddhist Scriptures. In spite of its ancient history, past-life regression is a continuously evolving field with a wide range of techniques that have been developed till date and continue to be developed even now.[/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]Freud can be considered as the grandfather of present day regression work. He came up with the idea that by making the unconscious conscious, one could restore choice and bring about healing. He discovered the link between past trauma and present symptoms and called it Psychic Determinism. He established that our past experiences determine our present behavior. This changed the face of psychotherapy forever and is the basis of regression work. Later, Jung postulated the concept of a Collective Unconscious and Archetypes (universal patterns).[/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]<snip>[/bcolor]

[bcolor=#ccffff]Full Article: [bcolor=#ccffff]https://arrrglobal.org/index.php?uri=history-of-past-life-regression-therapy[/bcolor][/bcolor]
 

TomKat

Patron Meritorious
Meester Clay Pidgeon - if scientology worked - wouldn't the orgs be packed, overflowing even? If word got out that scientology could deliver what it promised you couldn't keep people away. Am I not correct?

An original Hubbard idea? I would think perhaps power processing might qualify - or creative processing - or objectives - or listing and nulling. I think he had a bunch of original ideas such as GPMs, R2-12, 3M & other goals listing stuff but I also don't know if they were all that fruitful.
There are some oldtimers who swear by that stuff, and believe Hubbs gave it the deep 6 and then ran with implant GPMs such as found in CC, OT2, OT3 R-6 implant. :confused:

I must say, that I was never at Saint Hill in it's haydays and I don't know how many of those processes were the fruit of his students genius minds - perhaps Roger, Veda or some of the others have a better understanding to their genesis. But if they were his or someone else's ideas, workable or not, they are still pretty creative stuff.

Mimsey
 

TomKat

Patron Meritorious
Sounds like you're cool with your spiritual guru doing that and then somehow leading you on an ethical path.

Say, I've got a bridge for sale. Interested?
Sounds like you're cool with being semi-literate and unable to comprehend what I and a lot of others write.
 

TomKat

Patron Meritorious
From the Association for Regression and Reincarnation Research:

[bcolor=#ccffff]The practice of Past-Life-Regression Therapy has a history that goes back till ancient times. Examples of regression practice during ancient times are the Greek dream incubation centers, Greek and Egyptian Mystery schools, Prati-Prasav (references to which can be found in the Vedic literature of ancient India), Jati Smaran (the name given to past-life recall in Jain scriptures) etc. References of past-life recall also exist in Buddhist Scriptures. In spite of its ancient history, past-life regression is a continuously evolving field with a wide range of techniques that have been developed till date and continue to be developed even now.[/bcolor]
I knew someone would say that past lives were known about before, but that's irrelevant to my point. Was hypnotic regression into past lives common before Scn? How about a list of practitioners in, say, the 1930s? As to the "Association for Regression," when was that started? Because they're only on their 6th annual conference!
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I knew someone would say that past lives were known about before, but that's irrelevant to my point. Was hypnotic regression into past lives common before Scn? How about a list of practitioners in, say, the 1930s? As to the "Association for Regression," when was that started? Because they're only on their 6th annual conference!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression

Your point seems to be that Hubbard's is new and unique because ... well just because.

Believers gotta believe.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Where exactly were there 400+ students on course at any one time? Are you talking about at Flag, when staff from the lower class orgs came for FEBC training? Or at some particular organization?

I was at Boston org from 1979 -86 as a staff member. We had a couple staff sent off for FEBC training and the way it was explained beforehand, this training was the equivalent of training an auditor up through Class VIII (or was it XII?) and these staff would come back and boom the org.

They came back alright, but I didn't observe any noticeable difference in how Boston Org performed. It struggled the entire time I was there. If I got a $30.00 paycheck I was surprised, as this was much higher than average.
I'm friends with a fellow FEBC student. On a later
"handling" she was told 60% of FEBC students never
returned to to there orgs. Those who did caused
chaos per the Pilot.

I think the case has been made tat Scn admin is destructive.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Even though they still occasionally manage to surprise me with their strange and often convoluted viewpoints I do appreciate the true believers that come here every now again (along with a few long term members) to attempt to make us see the light or to protect hubbard and his cult.

Maintaining their poor battered and gullible ego's by trying to explain themselves and hubbard over and over again must be hard work but it all helps to demonstrate to any newbies or lurkers what scientology can do to some people and should encourage them to avoid it like the plague.


:clapping:


PS I especially like it when they get snarky due to an inability to explain themselves.


@Terril ... you didn't answer the question ... where were the 400+ students on course (in 1980) at any one time?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I knew someone would say that past lives were known about before, but that's irrelevant to my point. Was hypnotic regression into past lives common before Scn? How about a list of practitioners in, say, the 1930s? As to the "Association for Regression," when was that started? Because they're only on their 6th annual conference!
It seemed that your point was "people outside of Scn continue to do past life regressions, exorcisms, all kinds of other things in the real world that are found useful" and so this shows that Scientology tech is useful and used outside of the Scientology bubble.

Bill and I countered, pointing out that past life regressions, exorcisms, etc. have been being done since ancient times. They didn't begin after some new discovery by Hubbard.

Regarding the Association for Regression, how is their age relevant at all? They posted something as concerns the history on past life regression which they claim goes back to ancient times, and provided specific examples. Do you refute that claim?

With regards to the 1930's the same article states:
[bcolor=#ffff99]In the 20′s and 30′s, Edgar Cayce brought about an increased awareness of past lives by channeling the past life information of people. In 1927, Paul Brunton wrote about a technique that the yogis developed to tune into past-lives. Wilhelm Reich made a great contribution by his classification of “Character Structures”. Rank, who was the first to focus on birth memories, was clearly ahead of his time.[/bcolor]

Wikipedia stated:
[bcolor=#ccffff]In the modern era, it was the works of Madame Blavatsky, co-founder of the Theosophical Society, which brought it a new found popularity, especially in the West. French educator Allan Kardec also researched into past life regression in The Spirits Book and Heaven and Hell. [/bcolor]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression
I don't know whether any of that is true or not. Wikipedia isn't a source that should be trusted IMO, without verifying the info from other sources, but just relaying what they wrote for info.

I have read in the past an article from a hypnotist who practiced pre-1950, and he wasn't particularly impressed with DMSMH as he felt any results that were being achieved could have been accomplished just as well through the use of hypnosis techniques alone that predate Dianetics. I don't recall any reference though he made in regards to past lives, and don't believe he addressed that aspect.
 
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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I'm friends with a fellow FEBC student. On a later
"handling" she was told 60% of FEBC students never
returned to to there orgs. Those who did caused
chaos per the Pilot.

I think the case has been made tat Scn admin is destructive.
In one of the cases I personally observed it appeared that the staff member actually regressed in terms of his executive ability.

Primary methods that he utilized seemed to be screaming and intimidation.

That said, from my own experience, I don't believe much of the Admin Tech is destructive. I like many of the policies I studied.

I just don't believe that CoS properly knows how to train executives. Plus they choose people for executive positions who aren't really fit to lead in the first place.
 

Gib

Crusader
Au contraire, bon ami.

These were written in the very late 40's. They show the inner mental workings of troubled man
beset by many personal flaws, not unlike many of us during some stages of our lives. A normal,
garden variety "homo sap," if you will.

Five years later, by 1952 in Philadelphia, Ron claimed to have visited many other universes,
discovered all the basic secrets of the universe and life, and touted many incredible OT powers.

I had listened to all the PDC lectures five times through, the first thirty ten times through, so I can
say I knew them cold. I knew exactly what he claimed.

How did he go from a "normal" to an advanced operating thetan in just five years?

Once I found the affirmations, I tried to locate his path to his godlike state. I realized that there
was none. He knowingly made all this up, was extremely delusional, lived in a pretend personal
world, or was just a spinner of tall tales. Take your pick.

His ascent was simply impossible.

I think the affirmations are very important. They gave me the evidence long ago that I was conned.
It became an indisputable fact. And trust me, I was one of his biggest believers for the longest time.

Affirmations . . . a veritable smoking gun.

I was also one of the very first citizen researchers to have located the Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters
from 1946-51. I had contacted the library at UC Santa Cruz, where they were archived, and had them
send me copies of the over 100 pages of private correspondence. I read them over very carefully.

I realized Hubbard went from full-blown "aberee" in the late 40's to (supposedly by '52) full-blown
operating thetan with myriad super powers essentially overnight. The penny had dropped, as they
say, for me in an instant . . . again.

Robert Heinlein-Hubbard letters . . . a second veritable smoking gun.

Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary), LOL
actually, now that I think about it, it was only two years from the release of the 1950 Dianetics book to the 1952 PDC's lectures were Hubbard disclosed his as you say

"Five years later, by 1952 in Philadelphia, Ron claimed to have visited many other universes,
discovered all the basic secrets of the universe and life, and touted many incredible OT powers."

That Ron sure could tell stories. Imagine that, Ron all of the sudden in two years became OT. I guess you could say he saw the light, Jesus be upon us, thank you Ron, and thank you Ron for getting me to listened to thousands of hours of your lectures and reading your books, to show me the light.

you bullshit artist. LOL

Oh, but what about the so called 270 people Ron "Cleared" in his case histories of Dianetics? Where are they and how come we don't know about them, I mean that would be a miracle or a science of mental health, something better than the invention of fire or the wheel, no doubt. Who are these 270 case histories who went "clear"?

Show me the OT thetans!

LOL
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
Like HELL it didn't show up...

It is certainly true I can not PROVE this but I used my buddy's death from cancer to do independent research. Examining m own timetrack I discovered an anomaly. Comparing that anomaly to long developed and carefully examined database indicated the anomaly was produced by a perception of my friend's cancer five months before it was diagnosed.

THEREFORE:

I theorized if I can perceive it then medical science can perceive it.

But how?

I then theorized the best place to look would be the blood stream and I sketched out an obvious plan for experimental research.

But...

I had no avenue for publication. ESMB ain't the only place I get treated like shit. I did find a way to establish a potential comm line.

Four years later the blood test for very early detection of cancer which my research predicted was found at Mass General Hospital

Go ahead and piss on me all day long. Line up Lotus and Layton and let my pal PTS4 join in if he's so disposed. I don't care. I don't matter if I die unknown on the street. What matters is that blood test is saving lives even as we speak

And much of Hubbard's (and his colleagues) work has been psychedlically manifested too
They poo pooed Royal Rife too and your findings correlate with his, cancer causing viruses-----How do they travel?
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
That's absurd, as it would exclude the OT levels, and all other confidential explanations and instructions from Hubbard, which are extensive. However it's not surprising that you'd say it as it's a standard Scientology cult PR response.

You went into Scientology to become totally free and you were implanted by Scientology.

__________________​


From Hubbard's 1946 (to himself) 'Affirmations':

Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...
Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.

__________


bro-human-eval-2005.jpg


You are locked in a games condition.
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm friends with a fellow FEBC student. On a later
"handling" she was told 60% of FEBC students never
returned to to there orgs. Those who did caused
chaos per the Pilot.

I think the case has been made tat Scn admin is destructive.
This sounds right to me.

There was a member of public at my org in the UK who had been in Scientology for about 15 years when he decided to join staff. He paid for the FEBC and went to Flag to get trained so he could become a productive staff member. After a few weeks he blew from Flag and from his local org and from Scientology. I met him a few years later and he said it was the Flag experience that woke him up.

Actually, I only knew two other people from my org who went to Flag. One of them came back saying the flag staff were "nuts" and the other was so traumatised she refused to speak about her time there. So much for Scientology's "Mecca".
 
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