Did Hub have any original, good, ideas?

Koot

Patron with Honors
LRH credits many thinkers of the past for much of his works. He even says most of it is ancient knowledge. As I recall it was his codification of it that was original per him. As for upper level processing, per LRH himself, the mechanisms were known about and used nefariously(and probably well intendedly) for how many trillions of years?
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
What utter nonsense! A normal (non cultic) reasonably well balanced and sane person doesn't become psychotic due to "wrong indications and evaluation" Roger. Normal people are mentally stronger than that and usually have had to learn how to cope without having a "therapist/auditor" on hand to babysit them through life ... true character is formed that way and always has been.

People in the real world don't live in an imaginary protective bubble surrounded by others who also believe in hubbards theories, as scientologists do.

I agree with you that scientologists (including your lot) are very susceptible to introversion and various mental problems perhaps including psychosis ... possibly because they are always on the lookout for them (both in themselves and others) either when in session ... or when going about their lives in general.

Life as a scientologist is one big "issue".

Hubbard was just running a business and that business was based on "fixing the mental and spiritual issues of others in exchange for large amounts of money" ... whether they had those issues or not (and whether he plagiarised the tek or not).

Lol.

Most normal people seem to accept that life isn't perfect and they get on with it, working things out as they go. They are not trying to "clear themselves" of anything or eradicate hubbards spiritual entities or invisible friends ... that could certainly send someone into psychosis and has done in the past (fact).

Very succinct and concise analysis.

I do believe this very same thing is affecting the PC leftist cult with endless focus on race, gender, microaggressions, trigger words and safe spaces.

It makes the cult adherents insane.

Simple commentary puts them in intensive care. We even have "white silence is violence". That means not saying something is equivalent to a brutal physical attack.

Reminds me of the all powerful OT who has a motorcycle wreck by simply being "restimulated" by an SP's presence.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
What utter nonsense! A normal (non cultic) reasonably well balanced and sane person doesn't become psychotic due to "wrong indications and evaluation" Roger. Normal people are mentally stronger than that and usually have had to learn how to cope without having a "therapist/auditor" on hand to babysit them through life ... true character is formed that way and always has been.

People in the real world don't live in an imaginary protective bubble surrounded by others who also believe in hubbards theories, as scientologists do.

I agree with you that scientologists (including your lot) are very susceptible to introversion and various mental problems perhaps including psychosis ... possibly because they are always on the lookout for them (both in themselves and others) either when in session ... or when going about their lives in general.

Life as a scientologist is one big "issue".

Hubbard was just running a business and that business was based on "fixing the mental and spiritual issues of others in exchange for large amounts of money" ... whether they had those issues or not (and whether he plagiarised the tek or not).

Lol.

Most normal people seem to accept that life isn't perfect and they get on with it, working things out as they go. They are not trying to "clear themselves" of anything or eradicate hubbards spiritual entities or invisible friends ... that could certainly send someone into psychosis and has done in the past (fact).
Good heavens sweetheart!

People in "the real world" don't live inside a bubble???
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Because there may be some individuals out there who doubt your claims about exteriorization, just as Mary Sue Hubbard did:

Jon Atack: Did Mary Sue Hubbard Doubt Scientology’s Key Experience?
https://tonyortega.org/2013/11/16/jon-atack-did-mary-sue-hubbard-doubt-scientologys-key-experience/
Pitsy...

We have a substantial body of data from NDE's from people who were fully exterior from flat-lined bodies who gave accurate reports of full perception of the physical environment.

That level and degree of exteriorization is not known to have been demonstrated by anyone with a live body.

I have had many lesser experiences but at best there has been some perception and communication and causation of effect.

An essential feature of these best occurences is the presence of significant purpose.

In the test you are proposing purpose is at odds with the proposal because if I did that you would crap in your pants and freak out
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Pitsy...

We have a substantial body of data from NDE's from people who were fully exterior from flat-lined bodies who gave accurate reports of full perception of the physical environment.

Yes, I'm familiar with this. This has nothing to do though with my line of questioning. I don't doubt that many have felt as though they were fully exterior during NDE's. But their exteriorization's, whether real or imagined, were not the result of any application of Scientology.

That level and degree of exteriorization is not known to have been demonstrated by anyone with a live body.

Really? I am pretty sure I've read success stories from Scientologists who claim to have experienced that level and degree of exteriorization.

I have had many lesser experiences but at best there has been some perception and communication and causation of effect.

See essay by Terra Cognita
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/exteriorization-in-scientology/

An essential feature of these best occurences is the presence of significant purpose.

This also happens to be an essential feature of many activities humans involve themselves with, even when in their body. So I don't see the presence of significant purpose as evidence of anything.

In the test you are proposing purpose is at odds with the proposal because if I did that you would crap in your pants and freak out

I've experienced many incredible things in my life, some just as, if not more dramatic then you successfully performing the proposed test.
None of the experiences made me crap my pants, freak out, or otherwise cause harm. If you were worried about that I'd happily sign a waiver.
^^^^^^^^^ Most of my answers are within your quote, so please expand it so you can see the entire section.

I've had several experiences in my life where I felt I was out of my body. Whether that's what actually occurred or not I don't know.

What I do know though is that those experiences had zero to do with the application of Scientology, nor did they occur during my time in Scientology. And never during my 10 years in Scientology did I feel as though I exteriorized.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes I've read success stories

I said "demonstrated"

The essay by terry is sort of bland woozy rhetorical and biased.

And one does not properly pursue higher awareness and ability to perform the sort of frivolous parlor trick you propose.

I just put down one of my most dramatic exteriorizations on another thread. In 2011 I was in Boston and decided to see if I could use my sports wizardry to do for another team what i had been doing for Boston teams. I chose the KC Royals which then had the longest postseason drought in MLB. I went exterior into the GM's office and the owner's office. I could not give descriptions of either but I felt the warmth of sunlight through the windows and glimpsed wood paneling and leather chairs.

As to the Diamond crew...

You can check the record book.

And that was the practice round for doing the same for the Chicago Cubs

And no, I can't "prove" a word of this now can I.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Yes I've read success stories

I said "demonstrated"

The essay by terry is sort of bland woozy rhetorical and biased.

And one does not properly pursue higher awareness and ability to perform the sort of frivolous parlor trick you propose.
What I proposed is certainly not frivolous. Nor is it a "parlor trick".

Scientologists claim to refrain from demonstrating OT abilities for the same reasons you gave. It's too out-reality for them to actually demonstrate it. The wogs will freak out.

When Scientologists buy into this "logic" it sets the stage for them getting scammed and paying big money for services that don't deliver what's promised. When failing to obtain the promised abilities the scammers will always point to the mark, listing reasons he didn't obtain the promised abilities. The cause of the failure never is with the "tech", rather it lies with the victim who got scammed. He was PTS, had MU's, was masturbating, didn't properly finish an earlier level, out-ethics, ad-infinitum.
 

Veda

Sponsor
LRH credits many thinkers of the past for much of his works. He even says most of it is ancient knowledge. As I recall it was his codification of it that was original per him. As for upper level processing, per LRH himself, the mechanisms were known about and used nefariously(and probably well intendedly) for how many trillions of years?
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.

During the Phoenix lectures of 1954, Hubbard, while activating his fraudulent "religion angle" (as he called it), acknowledged a number of Eastern religions. That was a PR action.

Hubbard was running an hypnotic operation on his followers. The hypnosis only "worked" if he was seen as the sole source, and as the only one who could prevent infinite pain, and guarantee infinite pleasurable survival. (Hubbard - when posing as a Russian psychiatrist - even wrote about using "survival" as a gimmick. See discussion of Hubbard's use of "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.) He knew what he was doing.

Very Pavlovian.



profile_epilogue_lrh-photo.jpg
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.

During the Phoenix lectures of 1954, Hubbard, while activating his fraudulent "religion angle" (as he called it), acknowledged a number of Eastern religions. That was a PR action.

Hubbard was running an hypnotic operation on his followers. The hypnosis only "worked" if he was seen as the sole source, and as the only one who could prevent infinite pain, and guarantee infinite pleasurable survival. (Hubbard - when posing as a Russian psychiatrist - even wrote about using "survival" as a gimmick. See discussion of Hubbard's use of "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.) He knew what he was doing.

Very Pavlovian.



profile_epilogue_lrh-photo.jpg


The uncanny aspect of it, though, was that he told you about it before he did it. He told you what to look out for. This had the affect of lowering your guard as Ron warned you on the inside track so now you wouldn't suspect him because you weren't aware of the dupe to begin with.

Hubbard tells you about it as a warning...setting up a false guard because now you "know all about it" and then does the very thing he warned against but you don't see it because you don't suspect the whistleblower of the very activity he warns you about.

What a feint and knock out sucker punch.
 
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Koot

Patron with Honors
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.

During the Phoenix lectures of 1954, Hubbard, while activating his fraudulent "religion angle" (as he called it), acknowledged a number of Eastern religions. That was a PR action.
Hubbard was running an hypnotic operation on his followers. The hypnosis only "worked" if he was seen as the sole source, and as the only one who could prevent infinite pain, and guarantee infinite pleasurable survival. (Hubbard - when posing as a Russian psychiatrist - even wrote about using "survival" as a gimmick. See discussion of Hubbard's use of "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.) He knew what he was doing.

Very Pavlovian.


profile_epilogue_lrh-photo.jpg
 

Koot

Patron with Honors
No matter to me how he arrived at those names. It is still there, gives credit and IS good PR. I like good PR. As far as the religion angle, it was his unusual solution to the problems being put on him by suppressive influences. BFD. I think it was pretty clever myself but then I am not compelled to constantly spew disrespect and hate at a man I think was honestly trying to forward a science of the mind and spirit. I was only connected to the COS(COS is not SCN.) for about 10 years and my training was not that much, CL IV, HSSC, FPRD, KTL, LOC. but I know what I know about it and all this BS about hypnotism is a joke.

Your ball-----Go ahead , try to make less of the messenger (LRH) some more.
 

Veda

Sponsor
No matter to me how he arrived at those names. It is still there, gives credit and IS good PR. I like good PR. As far as the religion angle, it was his unusual solution to the problems being put on him by suppressive influences. BFD. I think it was pretty clever myself but then I am not compelled to constantly spew disrespect and hate at a man I think was honestly trying to forward a science of the mind and spirit. I was only connected to the COS(COS is not SCN.) for about 10 years and my training was not that much, CL IV, HSSC, FPRD, KTL, LOC. but I know what I know about it and all this BS about hypnotism is a joke.

Your ball-----Go ahead , try to make less of the messenger (LRH) some more.

The PR was insincere.

Not every idea or practice in Scientology was hypnotic (See Scientological Onion), but the overall effort was manipulative, and with a hidden agenda.

The subject has been de-coded and, of course, you can ignore that de-coding if you wish.
 

Gib

Crusader
Programmer_guy said:


"Service facsimile" actually has 2 meanings in scn:
1. A disability the person uses to help him survive, e.g. his bad leg gets him sympathy. LRH explains this as an engram the person keeps in restimulation, hence the word "facsimile." This is the earlier definition.
2. A computation the person uses to make self right and others wrong, to help him survive and damage the survival of others, or to escape domination and dominate others, e.g. "I'm smarter than everyone else," "Nobody understands me." These are the service facs listed for on Grade IV. IMO this is the more common meaning.

Can you explain why you feel this is covered by "confirmation bias"? I'm not saying it isn't, just I don't understand how you figure it is.

Programmer_guy said:


You may be thinking of the claim that "History of Man" was the stuff Nibs came up with when LRH fed him speed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology:_A_History_of_Man

I'm sure drugs played a role in the creation of OT III (LRH wrote to Mary Sue that he was "doing lots of pinks and greys and drinking lots of rum") but I don't think Nibs was involved.
but outside of scientology I would consider a service facsimile as also a con.

And maybe not.

Everyday when I go to my local grocery store, why there is a man in a wheel chair at the exit of cars going onto the local road, this is called pan handlers. His sign says Wife in Hospital, need money.

I would love to help, but how do I know if true?

Maybe he is running a service facsimile, or getting us to feel sympathy for his blight? Would that not be rhetoric although the dude didn't study rhetoric?

Anyways, the man in the wheel chair has gotten money from people, I'v'e seen it several times, and had to wait to exit the parking lot, must be successful as he has been there still yet. As is the Church of Scientology lead by DM. LOL

I would luv to help the wheel chair guy out with a few bucks, but I don't know. And I don't want to be scammed.

So maybe a third service facsimile could be a scam? A computation. Just like Hubbard's computation that he could produce a clear and the OT. Never happened, never will.
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
The PR was insincere.

Not every idea or practice in Scientology was hypnotic (See Scientological Onion), but the overall effort was manipulative, and with a hidden agenda.

The subject has been de-coded and, of course, you can ignore that de-coding if you wish.

My hypothesis about the "cog, VGIs, F/N" effect of SCN auditing is that it is not due to any hypnotic effects but is due to brain dopamine effects (not erasure of, so-called, charge in Hubbard's "reactive mind" hypothesis of engrams, secondaries, locks).

Also, this would possibly explain why PCs have a feel-good effect from SCN auditing and yet there is no such thing as "Clear" and never will be.

(False memory syndrome would be another interesting subtopic.)
 
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