Clay Pigeon
Gold Meritorious Patron
No.Wow, that's amazing! Would you please describe the cloths I am wearing (at the time you read this) as well as my surroundings?
No.Wow, that's amazing! Would you please describe the cloths I am wearing (at the time you read this) as well as my surroundings?
I didn't think so.
Why should I when anyone can see you're wearing your usual sailor suit and need to shave?I didn't think so.
What utter nonsense! A normal (non cultic) reasonably well balanced and sane person doesn't become psychotic due to "wrong indications and evaluation" Roger. Normal people are mentally stronger than that and usually have had to learn how to cope without having a "therapist/auditor" on hand to babysit them through life ... true character is formed that way and always has been.
People in the real world don't live in an imaginary protective bubble surrounded by others who also believe in hubbards theories, as scientologists do.
I agree with you that scientologists (including your lot) are very susceptible to introversion and various mental problems perhaps including psychosis ... possibly because they are always on the lookout for them (both in themselves and others) either when in session ... or when going about their lives in general.
Life as a scientologist is one big "issue".
Hubbard was just running a business and that business was based on "fixing the mental and spiritual issues of others in exchange for large amounts of money" ... whether they had those issues or not (and whether he plagiarised the tek or not).
Lol.
Most normal people seem to accept that life isn't perfect and they get on with it, working things out as they go. They are not trying to "clear themselves" of anything or eradicate hubbards spiritual entities or invisible friends ... that could certainly send someone into psychosis and has done in the past (fact).
Because there may be some individuals out there who doubt your claims about exteriorization, just as Mary Sue Hubbard did:Why should I <snip> ?
Good heavens sweetheart!What utter nonsense! A normal (non cultic) reasonably well balanced and sane person doesn't become psychotic due to "wrong indications and evaluation" Roger. Normal people are mentally stronger than that and usually have had to learn how to cope without having a "therapist/auditor" on hand to babysit them through life ... true character is formed that way and always has been.
People in the real world don't live in an imaginary protective bubble surrounded by others who also believe in hubbards theories, as scientologists do.
I agree with you that scientologists (including your lot) are very susceptible to introversion and various mental problems perhaps including psychosis ... possibly because they are always on the lookout for them (both in themselves and others) either when in session ... or when going about their lives in general.
Life as a scientologist is one big "issue".
Hubbard was just running a business and that business was based on "fixing the mental and spiritual issues of others in exchange for large amounts of money" ... whether they had those issues or not (and whether he plagiarised the tek or not).
Lol.
Most normal people seem to accept that life isn't perfect and they get on with it, working things out as they go. They are not trying to "clear themselves" of anything or eradicate hubbards spiritual entities or invisible friends ... that could certainly send someone into psychosis and has done in the past (fact).
Pitsy...Because there may be some individuals out there who doubt your claims about exteriorization, just as Mary Sue Hubbard did:
Jon Atack: Did Mary Sue Hubbard Doubt Scientology’s Key Experience?
https://tonyortega.org/2013/11/16/jon-atack-did-mary-sue-hubbard-doubt-scientologys-key-experience/
^^^^^^^^^ Most of my answers are within your quote, so please expand it so you can see the entire section.Pitsy...
We have a substantial body of data from NDE's from people who were fully exterior from flat-lined bodies who gave accurate reports of full perception of the physical environment.
Yes, I'm familiar with this. This has nothing to do though with my line of questioning. I don't doubt that many have felt as though they were fully exterior during NDE's. But their exteriorization's, whether real or imagined, were not the result of any application of Scientology.
That level and degree of exteriorization is not known to have been demonstrated by anyone with a live body.
Really? I am pretty sure I've read success stories from Scientologists who claim to have experienced that level and degree of exteriorization.
I have had many lesser experiences but at best there has been some perception and communication and causation of effect.
See essay by Terra Cognita
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/exteriorization-in-scientology/
An essential feature of these best occurences is the presence of significant purpose.
This also happens to be an essential feature of many activities humans involve themselves with, even when in their body. So I don't see the presence of significant purpose as evidence of anything.
In the test you are proposing purpose is at odds with the proposal because if I did that you would crap in your pants and freak out
I've experienced many incredible things in my life, some just as, if not more dramatic then you successfully performing the proposed test.
None of the experiences made me crap my pants, freak out, or otherwise cause harm. If you were worried about that I'd happily sign a waiver.
What I proposed is certainly not frivolous. Nor is it a "parlor trick".Yes I've read success stories
I said "demonstrated"
The essay by terry is sort of bland woozy rhetorical and biased.
And one does not properly pursue higher awareness and ability to perform the sort of frivolous parlor trick you propose.
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.LRH credits many thinkers of the past for much of his works. He even says most of it is ancient knowledge. As I recall it was his codification of it that was original per him. As for upper level processing, per LRH himself, the mechanisms were known about and used nefariously(and probably well intendedly) for how many trillions of years?
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.
During the Phoenix lectures of 1954, Hubbard, while activating his fraudulent "religion angle" (as he called it), acknowledged a number of Eastern religions. That was a PR action.
Hubbard was running an hypnotic operation on his followers. The hypnosis only "worked" if he was seen as the sole source, and as the only one who could prevent infinite pain, and guarantee infinite pleasurable survival. (Hubbard - when posing as a Russian psychiatrist - even wrote about using "survival" as a gimmick. See discussion of Hubbard's use of "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.) He knew what he was doing.
Very Pavlovian.
Good heavens sweetheart!
People in "the real world" don't live inside a bubble???
Are you referring to the list of names placed at the beginning of Science of Survival and Scientology 8008? Hubbard's editor John Sanborn compiled that list to give Hubbard gravitas and respectability.
During the Phoenix lectures of 1954, Hubbard, while activating his fraudulent "religion angle" (as he called it), acknowledged a number of Eastern religions. That was a PR action.
Hubbard was running an hypnotic operation on his followers. The hypnosis only "worked" if he was seen as the sole source, and as the only one who could prevent infinite pain, and guarantee infinite pleasurable survival. (Hubbard - when posing as a Russian psychiatrist - even wrote about using "survival" as a gimmick. See discussion of Hubbard's use of "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.) He knew what he was doing.
Very Pavlovian.
No matter to me how he arrived at those names. It is still there, gives credit and IS good PR. I like good PR. As far as the religion angle, it was his unusual solution to the problems being put on him by suppressive influences. BFD. I think it was pretty clever myself but then I am not compelled to constantly spew disrespect and hate at a man I think was honestly trying to forward a science of the mind and spirit. I was only connected to the COS(COS is not SCN.) for about 10 years and my training was not that much, CL IV, HSSC, FPRD, KTL, LOC. but I know what I know about it and all this BS about hypnotism is a joke.
Your ball-----Go ahead , try to make less of the messenger (LRH) some more.
but outside of scientology I would consider a service facsimile as also a con.Programmer_guy said:
"Service facsimile" actually has 2 meanings in scn:
1. A disability the person uses to help him survive, e.g. his bad leg gets him sympathy. LRH explains this as an engram the person keeps in restimulation, hence the word "facsimile." This is the earlier definition.
2. A computation the person uses to make self right and others wrong, to help him survive and damage the survival of others, or to escape domination and dominate others, e.g. "I'm smarter than everyone else," "Nobody understands me." These are the service facs listed for on Grade IV. IMO this is the more common meaning.
Can you explain why you feel this is covered by "confirmation bias"? I'm not saying it isn't, just I don't understand how you figure it is.
Programmer_guy said:
You may be thinking of the claim that "History of Man" was the stuff Nibs came up with when LRH fed him speed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology:_A_History_of_Man
I'm sure drugs played a role in the creation of OT III (LRH wrote to Mary Sue that he was "doing lots of pinks and greys and drinking lots of rum") but I don't think Nibs was involved.
The PR was insincere.
Not every idea or practice in Scientology was hypnotic (See Scientological Onion), but the overall effort was manipulative, and with a hidden agenda.
The subject has been de-coded and, of course, you can ignore that de-coding if you wish.