Dismissing the early Scn rebels

Veda

Sponsor
First a point of agreement.



'I told you I was trouble' wrote:

"Scientology... its time was always going to come... with or without the rebels of the early days."

Can't help but feel this is a terribly unfair dismissal of the courageous individuals who, during the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, and later, made a huge difference.

Scientology is a secretive subject and exposing its secrets was very important.

Scientology is also a confusing subject, and analyses of it also were important.

I guess it's necessary to have "been there" during this time period to really understand.

The Internet makes it look easy, but before the Internet it was not easy.

Ask Paulette Cooper and so many others.

They are not irrelevant; they are essential, and I thank them.


This is not an argument thread, and ITYIWT probably didn't mean it the way it sounded, but just for the record, I felt this post needed to be made and, as the thread where it would have been placed was just closed (and I'm glad it was closed), I put it here.

Peace out. :)
 
Last edited:

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
'I told you I was trouble' wrote:

"Scientology... its time was always going to come... with or without rebels of the early days."

Can't help but feel this is a terribly unfair dismissal of the courageous individuals who, during the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, and later, made a huge difference.

Scientology is a secretive subject and exposing its secrets was very important.

Scientology is also a confusing subject, and analyses of it also were important.

I guess it's necessary to have "been there" during this time period to really understand.

The Internet makes it look easy, but before the Internet it was not easy.

Ask Paulette Cooper and so many others.

They are not irrelevant; they are essential, and I thank them.


This is not an argument thread, and ITYIWT probably didn't mean it the way it sounded, but just for the record, I felt this post need to be made and, as the thread where it would have been placed was just closed (and I'm glad it was closed), I put it here.

Peace out. :)

Thank you, Veda...Precise, Profound and Perfect, IMHO. :yes::thumbsup::clap:

Face:)
 
M

Moderator 3

Guest
I doubt very much that any of us would even think to minimise the contributions of scientology critics who preceded us, the current crop. Why would anyone think that? :confused2:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I was there.

My main point was that scientology will burn itself out eventually regardless because it's a pointless, weird, greedy cult.

The people that chose to attack back years ago when it was scary, did so for whatever reasons they did it, but just a few seem to "expect" to be seen as a hero now or at the very least "expect" to be listened to ... but sometimes they talk absolute crap and perhaps they got in (to the cult) far too deeply in the first place.

Where to draw the line?

I've drawn my own line ... and I'll continue to think for myself.

I have enormous admiration for Anonymous, they were not sucked in themselves yet are the (main) people to have created the climate for change, and none of them are looking for a pat on the back.

:)
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was there.

My main point was that scientology will burn itself out eventually regardless because it's a pointless, weird, greedy cult.

The people that chose to attack back years ago when it was scary, did so for whatever reasons they did it, but just a few seem to "expect" to be seen as a hero now or at the very least "expect" to be listened to ... but sometimes they talk absolute crap and perhaps they got in (to the cult) far too deeply in the first place.

Where to draw the line?

I've drawn my own line ... and I'll continue to think for myself.

I have enormous admiration for Anonymous, they were not sucked in themselves yet are the (main) people to have created the climate for change, and none of them are looking for a pat on the back.

:)

Oh dear Trouble, we're going to end up arguing again. You seem to want to dismiss the hard yards that people in the early days put in, as "they did so for whatever reasons."

What's the problem with giving people a pat on the back if they've earned it? I went quietly and didn't speak up about the nonsense I saw going on (apart from the prices), so that gives me a lot of admiration for those who chose the more difficult path and, to be fair, in some cases had more to lose than I did.

Anonymous? Sure they deserve a lot of credit, but don't forget that they were able to take advantage of the Internet and social media, which the earlier critics weren't.
 

Jump

Operating teatime
Oh dear Trouble, we're going to end up arguing again. You seem to want to dismiss the hard yards that people in the early days put in, as "they did so for whatever reasons."

What's the problem with giving people a pat on the back if they've earned it? I went quietly and didn't speak up about the nonsense I saw going on (apart from the prices), so that gives me a lot of admiration for those who chose the more difficult path and, to be fair, in some cases had more to lose than I did.

Anonymous? Sure they deserve a lot of credit, but don't forget that they were able to take advantage of the Internet and social media, which the earlier critics weren't.


And Anonymous did it for the lulz.

The early days had a lot of dirty tricks, fair game and misuse of the courts to harass and destroy. Lulz, not so much.
 

Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was there.

My main point was that scientology will burn itself out eventually regardless because it's a pointless, weird, greedy cult.

The people that chose to attack back years ago when it was scary, did so for whatever reasons they did it, but just a few seem to "expect" to be seen as a hero now or at the very least "expect" to be listened to ... but sometimes they talk absolute crap and perhaps they got in (to the cult) far too deeply in the first place.

Where to draw the line?

I've drawn my own line ... and I'll continue to think for myself.

I have enormous admiration for Anonymous, they were not sucked in themselves yet are the (main) people to have created the climate for change, and none of them are looking for a pat on the back.

:)

ITYIWT,

I appreciate your writing style and enjoy your sharing of your thought process immensely.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
ITYIWT,

I appreciate your writing style and enjoy your sharing of your thought process immensely.


Lol! That reminds me of one of my very early school reports, it said "Trouble has an unusual brain" (the teacher used my real name though).

I'm still not sure what it meant but my parents laughed for a week.


:questions:
 

purple haze

Patron with Honors
Nicely said, Veda.
Before the Internet, it was more of a one on one.
My interaction that caused me to leave was with Yvonne.
I finally just bowed out after we had made our peace in 1977, and she left Celebrity Center for Flag.
Back in 1977, you'd have to write a book to really speak out and reach a lot of people. Nowadays, it's so very much easier. I admire all the early folks who spoke their mind and paved the way for the rest of us.:yes:
Aloha!


[video=youtube;E2VCwBzGdPM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2VCwBzGdPM[/video]
First a point of agreement.



'I told you I was trouble' wrote:

"Scientology... its time was always going to come... with or without the rebels of the early days."

Can't help but feel this is a terribly unfair dismissal of the courageous individuals who, during the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, and later, made a huge difference.

Scientology is a secretive subject and exposing its secrets was very important.

Scientology is also a confusing subject, and analyses of it also were important.

I guess it's necessary to have "been there" during this time period to really understand.

The Internet makes it look easy, but before the Internet it was not easy.

Ask Paulette Cooper and so many others.

They are not irrelevant; they are essential, and I thank them.


This is not an argument thread, and ITYIWT probably didn't mean it the way it sounded, but just for the record, I felt this post needed to be made and, as the thread where it would have been placed was just closed (and I'm glad it was closed), I put it here.

Peace out. :)
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
And Anonymous did it for the lulz.

The early days had a lot of dirty tricks, fair game and misuse of the courts to harass and destroy. Lulz, not so much.

Yeah, I wonder if it would have made any difference if I'd known about all that when I first walked into my local org in the mid-70s (though it was some years later before I actually got involved).

Thing is, if I had I'd have been on my own with that knowledge because no one at my local org was talking about any of it (or certainly not in front of public) or any of my family members (I got involved through a family connection). All the more reason IMO to give credit to the pioneering critics and opponents - theirs was a lonely row to hoe.
 

Jump

Operating teatime
I see it as a cumulative effect. All chips in the cult's armor.

Those early chips (I would have said 'chinks' but in the context if hubbard writings, probably not) the early chips really took a big effort.

But now, they are just peeling off like the old paint on my laundry ceiling...
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
I recently wrote an article on my blog on this subject, and I wasn't going to put it up over here on ESMB but it totally fits the subject of this thread, so here is the article:

Although I have tried at every turn to give credit where credit is due, frankly I think so far that I have done an inadequate job. So I’m taking this opportunity now to dedicate an entire post to just this subject of acknowledging the giants upon whose shoulders I stand. This is something important in the community of ex-Scientologists and a point that should not be ignored by any of us who are relatively newly coming out of Scientology.
There is a lot of history and backstory in the world of Scientology critics and whistleblowers. It seems like it can take as long to learn about all the personalities involved, their incredible and sometimes unbelievable trials and tribulations as it did to learn about Scientology itself. I sometimes think it would be a make a more epic and interesting tale if someone were to tell the true stories of those who have exposed Scientology’s criminal activities, human rights abuses, fair gaming and corporate shenanigans than it would be to continue talking about the Church itself. There is certainly no shortage of intrigue, James Bond-like espionage, suspense and even tragedy in every one of these people’s experiences.
We have arrived at a place now where Scientology is truly the subject of ridicule, contempt and amusement to the world at large. If they think about Scientology at all, they know that it is something unsavory and if they look into it even casually, they universally determine that it is something sinister, creepy and even dangerous. With the power of the internet and Google, all of the data we know is only a few keystrokes away. It has never been easier and as a result, the information is widespread. The Church of Scientology ran a massively successful Dianetics marketing campaign in the 1980s which received hardly any backlash or negative feedback (at least not that I remember). Now look at the overwhelming negative response to their inane Superbowl ads, universally panned across the Twittersphere within seconds of being run. And there are so many more indications of Scientology’s massive PR failures across all media channels. The upcoming HBO documentary by Alex Gibney and Louis Theroux’s BBC special are going to draw even more attention to the abuses of this cult and expose it for the money-making scam that it is.
None of this would have been possible without a number of factors, everything that evolved over the last 40 years. All of the hell that ex’s and non-Scientologists who were dragged into the sordid messes of the Church had to endure totals up to an almost epic story of torment, stalking, harassment and much worse. This isn’t even melodramatic or exaggerated. The Guardians Office/Office of Special Affairs operations carried out from the 70s on Paulette Cooper through to the present on so many others such as Denise Brennan, Gerry Armstrong, Lawrence Wollersheim, Jessie Prince, Arnie Lerma and Tory Christman (to name just a small handful) – all of this is what put enough information out there for Anonymous to take the ball over the finish line in 2007 and explode all of the abuses internationally with their protests, videos and personal exposure. I am not leaving anyone out of this on purpose – the names of everyone who came before me are too numerous to list here and I don’t mean to slight anyone by leaving anyone out specifically.
Everything that has happened since has basically been the bonus round for those of us who exited more recently, a chance for us to get our licks in and have our voices be heard to speed up the process that was already started years earlier. I think that the work of Marc Headley, Karen Delacarriere and Jeff Augustine, Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun has been exceedingly excellent in this regard. I don’t know anyone who has brought it the battle right to David Miscavige’s doorstep as has Marty and Monique Rathbun and they are deservedly admired for the stand they have taken and the progress they’ve made in exposing Scientology’s dark underside in modern court.
Everything that happened had to happen in order for the next thing to happen. When I finally left the employ of the Sea Organization in 2012, I was almost immediately persecuted by the Church for no other reason than someone in it considered that I was a “bad example” of a Scientologist. They attempted to keep me away from any org or Scientologist, despite the fact that I had followed every rule and every code, had been completely forthright with them about why I was leaving the Sea Organization and had expressed to them my honest desire to continue to be a Scientologist. None of my 27 years of active and productive service to the Church and its causes mattered once someone got it in their head that I was a “PR risk” simply because I wanted to live a relatively normal life outside of the Sea Org.
It was only because of all the information that was so readily available on the internet that I was able to so rapidly educate myself about what Scientology was really doing, conclude that I had been used and betrayed by a totalitarian organization which I had no idea was anywhere near as bad as it was, and then move forward with my life. Everything I read gave me the strength and resolve to do what I now do and say what I now say.
So the bottom line is, I can’t thank everyone who came before me enough. We all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to all of them for surviving their ordeals and continuing to fight the fight. We may not agree on everything and who said we ever had to? We sure as hell agree that the official Church of Scientology is an evil, totalitarian organization run by a sociopath. We agree that L. Ron Hubbard didn’t have the best of intentions and in fact, was engaged in mass manipulation under what could very kindly be called “devious circumstances.” We all try to dissect our experiences in our own ways to understand and rid ourselves of whatever demons we still carry around. Given the individual and personal nature of what we all endured, of course we are going to come to some pretty different conclusions. There’s not only nothing wrong with that, but I think it would be pretty weird if we all universally agreed on everything. The people who are universally forced to agree are the ones inside the cult, not the ones who escape from it.
I’m also very thankful for the Ex-Scientology Message Board, which was itself so instrumental in 2013 to my having not only a place to learn but also a place to express my outrage and be understood. Not having this, I don’t know where I would have turned to for understanding.
I hope it doesn’t sound presumptuous for me to be speaking in “we” and “us” above. This is just my sense and understanding of things.
Thanks to everyone.
 

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
I'm very disinterested in heroes. In fact, I doubt they exist at all. I reject the concept as a whole, I find it as dull as [... insert something you find dull]. But I sure as hell am a fan of the more clever and tenacious of the villains.
You know why.
In fact, I think the most successful heroes are actually villains. How could it be different, since evil rules the universe? :biggrin:
:devil:


I see it as a cumulative effect. All chips in the cult's armor.

Doom appreciates your metaphor. You can ignore, but I'm afraid the magic doesn't care for your pathetic energy shield. :biggrin:


attachment.php


I know that style... Somewhere, someone... If I only could remember... :hmm:
 

Attachments

  • 2862068-4162010103908AM_795433-doom_super.jpg
    2862068-4162010103908AM_795433-doom_super.jpg
    38.8 KB · Views: 143

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
And speaking of thanking people, how about Tony Ortega? He's been a one man $cientology-wrecking-crew for years now. And yes, I know there are other journalists who have contributed over the years, Mr. Ortega does it day after day after day. Ve-r-r-r-r-r-y effective.


By the way, all of this thanking of people leads me to believe there is a feeling that something has been accomplished. Could it be? Could it possibly be? Oh, yes, it could!

We are witnessing the cult circling the drain. Will Miscavige still have money? Yes, he will. So what? Other cult leaders still had money when their number was up.

Lack of money is not what ends a cult. It is the STINK of it that ends it. And the Cult of $cientology is now reeking. And the HBO Special has not even begun to be broadcast yet. Tick. Tock.

:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was there.

My main point was that scientology will burn itself out eventually regardless because it's a pointless, weird, greedy cult.

The people that chose to attack back years ago when it was scary, did so for whatever reasons they did it, but just a few seem to "expect" to be seen as a hero now or at the very least "expect" to be listened to ... but sometimes they talk absolute crap and perhaps they got in (to the cult) far too deeply in the first place.

Where to draw the line?

I've drawn my own line ... and I'll continue to think for myself.

I have enormous admiration for Anonymous, they were not sucked in themselves yet are the (main) people to have created the climate for change, and none of them are looking for a pat on the back.

:)
I agree that without the old guard Scientology would still be in decline and the occurrence of the internet would have hastened the decline in one way or another.

That being said the old guard are the reason anonymous knew about Scientology to begin with.

Without the old guard the picture today would be very different and it might have taken a lot longer to happen.

I also think the grass roots assistance of exes by the old guard and the Cult Awareness Network would not have happened so the people who were leaving early on would have had zero support.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I was there.

My main point was that scientology will burn itself out eventually regardless because it's a pointless, weird, greedy cult.



:yes: This is what I got - your post clearly meant it! :wink2:
I would never thought you meant to dismiss whomever for their contribution. (On several occasions, you expressed your gratitude toward all those)


I've drawn my own line ... and I'll continue to think for myself.

Carry on rebel sister - I love it -
:carryon: :happydance::giggle:
:yes:

Lotus
fan reader! :biggrin:
 
Top