ThisFenceHurts
Patron with Honors
Escalus;82913 [B said:Fence[/B] - I'm not altogether certain why you may think I must be compelled to explain my "purpose" as, between the two of us here on an ex-scientologist venue there is really only one "ex-scientologist."
I was interested in knowing the answer, that's why I asked. As far as being an "ex-Scientologist" - well, I have not set foot in a Church of Scientology for several years, and I haven't considered myself a "Scientologist" in about as long. I still use, successfully, a lot of the tech that Hubbard published. I also used to go to a Christian Church. I still practice some things that I learned about in Sunday School. I consider myself neither a Scientologist, nor a Christian. I don't think that, in order to be an "ex-Scientologist", one has to denounce the entire subject.
But in the interests of the point at hand I'll be happy to explain that as I stood in the hallway at the old DC org on S Street watching a recently returned, brand new OTIII being physically held down to keep him from blowing staff by his wife and an ethics officer, with him explaining that the two of them have to understand that "this is all bullshit", it began to play on my already growing doubts and, much to the chagrin of all my fellow robots, I pretty much determined that any organization that denies the capacity of its members for critical thinking is... well... a cult.
I've got no argument with that. It IS a cult. The CoS, anyway. I think that most, if not all, organized "religious" groups tend to turn into cults at some point in their history. If the Crusades and the Inquisition weren't cult-like behavior, I'd like to know how. But that doesn't mean one can't read the Bible, see Jesus' teachings on love and acceptance, and find truth and value in them.
How much did we accept from Hubbard's writings on faith? How much did we wink and eye at, knowing this or that wouldn't fly out in "wog" society but we Knew best anyway? And what the living fuck is a Scientologist doing but on a permanent "make wrong" of everybody around him who hasn't bought into the game?
Most Scientologists accept most of what Hubbard said on faith, IMHO. Many, perhaps most, are on a permanent make-wrong. BUT, and this is the only thing I have been saying on this thread, I have found the SP tech to be workable and valuable BY MY OWN EXPERIENCE. I couldn't care less if you have bought into the game of Scientology or not. I do care that you seem hell-bent on trying to convince me that I should abandon what I have found to be true by my own experience. You maybe have found it be not true. I don't go around on other people's threads telling them that they are in error about their own experience. You did. So, who's making who wrong? I'm just defending my original position.
The idea that "you become what you accuse others of" seems somehow not to apply to Scientologists, only their critics.
Have I accused you of something you feel you have not done? If so, point it out to me and I'll happily apologize.
But I read up a few posts about OHTEEATE not caring what other people think about the gains on an OT level. They had space, they had calmness, they were big and cool and bright and had chrome wheels or something. OK. How does that help the argument that such a state exists/ I mean, I have at least two vodka-cranberries when I get home from work every day and I'll be damned if I let anybody tell me that isn't good for me and give me chrome wheels and stuff. "And I don't care what anybody thinks" either.
The thing with OHTEEATE is that he can enjoy his experience whether you believe it to be true, are convinced it is not, or have no opinion on the subject. Just to clarify, I hope it has been made clear that I am not arguing for or against the existence of anything on this post other than an SP.
What Scientologists fail to accept is ANY kind of critical thinking.
It may be true of some, or many, or most. It is not true that someone who does not agree with you is not accepting any kind of critical thinking. I'm guessing that you have had many frustrating exchanges with Scientologists. I have. As far as critical thinking goes, you had challenged me to name an SP and you would prove how he was not an SP. I did and you have not yet taken up the challenge. I can promise you that, if you do, I will read it and give it thought.
They had this mysterious weight pop off the side of their head and the auditor says, "your needle is floating" and all of a sudden they're immortal, and if you dare to question the answer, invariably, is that you're either saying what you're saying because you don't understand a word somewhere, have this or that Scientological something or other you have to get out of before you can see the truth, or (guess what) you're an SP. Gosh - maybe someday we'll be in Tom Cruiseland and laugh about "heeeeeheeeee huhhuh huh huh haaaaa... did you ever see an SP?"
Tom Cruise is a nutjob. I have run into the same barriers that you mention above.
This is all in the way of explaining to you my "purpose" or my "mission" or whatever you want to imagine me just having an animated conversation with someone like a regular old normal person is.
Thank you for explaining. I like to know what the position is of the person I am communicating with. It helps.
I scan these threads and see maybe four or five actual ex-scientologists. The rest are on a holding pattern waiting for the recent movement to oust the Miscavige boogeyman so they can get on with their hypnosis... I mean auditing. So my premise is question everything because they won't. The position of the recidivists here is "I feel better about myself so it works" is not the problem. The problem is there is no evidence that WHY they are feeling this way is happening because of what they say is happening. Where are the trials when processing techniques were being worked out... or did they spring whole from the fertile imagination of a godlike genius who couldn't even handle his allergies without medication even in the advanced state of beingness before he dropped the body to pursue the higher levels?
I don't disagree with your assessment. I don't agree that it is hypnosis. As far as evidence goes, I am not out to prove that Scientology works. I simply think that there are people that fit the SP characteristics, and I have used PTS/SP Tech to improve my life. Questioning is fine. Telling me to "snap out of it" is not questioning. It's demanding that I change my viewpoint to match yours.
We can't show a dianetic engram. We can't show that what we're doing to it when when find one is actually what is happening. We can't display any real "at cause" activity over matter, energy, space or time. We can't find any babies coming out of the womb telling you "Hi I'm Joe, just thought it would be fun to pick up a body." So why should we simply accept the category of "SP"? Because you read it some where and you say so? Because that's good enough for me? Not likely.
It's fine with me if you don't want to accept the category of SP. Is it fine with you if I DO want to accept the category of SP? But, as I stated earlier, the label is not significant to me. I have met the type of person that Hubbard describes, seen the effects that Hubbard describes. Others may call these people "toxic personalities", the label is not important.
And as to the standard running argument about "well you just want to make people wrong" - the truth is a bit different. I don't have to make people wrong, there are folks who can do that all by themselves. It's just most people are too nice and pleasant to mention they're not wearing any clothes. I'm not.
I agree, most people are too nice and pleasant. I agree that sometimes someone needs to stand up and say, "WTF This is bullshit!", as you experienced above. I probably agree with you on a lot of what you think about Scientology, Scientologists, etc.
If I walk outside and say, "It's a nice sunny day!" and someone says, "No it's not! Prove it! What's wrong with you? It is NOT a nice sunny day", etc., I may decide to communicate my reasons why I feel that way, my feelings about being talked to that way, and any number of other things. That's what I have decided to do on this thread. But at the end of the day, I started out thinking it was a nice sunny day, I continued to think it was a nice sunny day, and I ended up thinking it was a nice sunny day.