DM Vicious?

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
I've heard things that DM was a vicious two-faced liar. I've only seen the liar part, but not real sure about the two-facedness.

Does anybody actually know what DM is like?

-Steve
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I've heard things that DM was a vicious two-faced liar. I've only seen the liar part, but not real sure about the two-facedness.

Does anybody actually know what DM is like?

-Steve

Well I've worked with him a few times - never worked with him for an extended period though so I have not really been privy to the reported extremes of his behavior.

So my 2 cents, FWIW.

He is an extremely driven individual - exactly what he is driven by I am not entirely sure. He has an incredibly blinkered view of the world though he thinks he knows a lot more than he does.

he has never run a real org in the real world, I am pretty sure he has never even worked in a scientology service org.

He is cunning and smart though I was never impressed by his intelligence and my general impression was that he thought everyone else in the SO and in Scientology were bumbling,incompetent assholes.

And that attitude shines through, loud and clear in a lot of things he does.
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
Well I've worked with him a few times - never worked with him for an extended period though so I have not really been privy to the reported extremes of his behavior.

So my 2 cents, FWIW.

He is an extremely driven individual - exactly what he is driven by I am not entirely sure. He has an incredibly blinkered view of the world though he thinks he knows a lot more than he does.

he has never run a real org in the real world, I am pretty sure he has never even worked in a scientology service org.

He is cunning and smart though I was never impressed by his intelligence and my general impression was that he thought everyone else in the SO and in Scientology were bumbling,incompetent assholes.

And that attitude shines through, loud and clear in a lot of things he does.

Sounds like he knows that Scientology is a scam.

-Steve
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
I bumped into him a few times.

He just missed out on some of the basics:

To command is to serve.

The ARC triangle.

Deliver what you promise.

Only create effects other can experience easily.

The all too betelling "The overt doth speak loudly".

Clean hands make a happy life.

"Treat others as you would want to be treated".

Outflow is holier and more remunerative than inflow.



.....Maybe he had some basic disagreements with the tech?
 

barky

Patron with Honors
He just missed out on some of the basics:

To command is to serve.

The ARC triangle.

Deliver what you promise.

Only create effects other can experience easily.

The all too betelling "The overt doth speak loudly".

Clean hands make a happy life.

"Treat others as you would want to be treated".

Outflow is holier and more remunerative than inflow.

Wow, to completely fumble on the basic moral codes of the religion he leads ...

The parallels to Dark Ages Christianity is striking. He even has his own inquisition ...
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Sounds like he knows that Scientology is a scam.

-Steve

Steve,

I think it may be more complex than that to be honest. I really don't think that DM has ever seriously looked at the notion that it could be a scam - in order to do that he would have to have a bigger frame of reference than would be possible for someone who has been in it (and in it deeply) his whole life.


I certainly do not want to come across as someone who has any time for this guy. But at the same time I think it only honest to examine the whole picture.

As time has gone on - and I am referring to the time since I left - it would appear that he has become increasingly isolated. When I worked with him he seemed to have a good 'team' thing going with Yager, Lesevre and Norman Starkey. Since then I know (from others who worked at Int) that he has turned on them, viciously from what I heard. He has also grown increasingly intolerant of others, distrusting and more contemptuous.

I think that he has arrived at a point where his opinion of himself is so high and his opinion of others so low that he feels entirely justified in slapping and hitting people around him. I cannot tell you how strange it is to me that someone in the SO would hit another SO member - I mean I can imagine two people getting into a personal argument and it escalating but just flat out hitting someone who is a junior?

Until someone has the balls to talk to this person and tell him that he is screwing up - and make him understand it - I do fear that he is going to get worse.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Thats what I was gonna say. Maybe he in the re-incarnation, taken over later in life, not newborn. It could be a whole new field of interesting speculation....:jumping:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Power Corrupts

It's the same old story:

Power corrupts

And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I know a guy who was getting handled in ethics by one of those guys in the inner circle you mentioned, Mick - I can't remember who it was exactly.

This person getting handled had this big cog that explained all kinds of things to him. He realized that, at the point of his "track" that he was inspecting, he had too much power, and he had let that go to his head, and this was the point where he began to fail.

The person handling him - this INT terminal - rejected the cog completely and told him to keep looking. Because you can't have too much power.

The guy said, "Yeah, but I had too much power and..."

He was cut off. "Sorry. Wrong why. You can't have too much power."

He accepted this invalidation of his cog and kept looking.

And he forwarded this story to me in order to get me to see that I can't have too much power.

This is a major problem in the Scientology mindset. They are ignoring a major lesson from human history here:

Power corrupts.

And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Wow, to completely fumble on the basic moral codes of the religion he leads ...

Scientology doesn't have any "basic moral codes" - it has some PR stuff that Hubbard put out to try and demonstrate that their was some core of honest morality, but there is no basic moral code to this thing.

Scientology "rewards" upstats - and defines upstat as having loads of money - and the only care it has about that "upstatness" is that how you got it should not reflect badly on Scientology. Arms dealer? No problem, as long as you are not being prosecuted, running a Ponzi scheme? More power to you until you get caught! Not paying taxes - become a Patron!

Miscavige has proclaimed Cruise the best Scientologist. Think about that for a second - here is a guy who's one claim to fame is that he has made a pile of money making movies (some of which I have enjoyed). Nothing wrong with that of course - but what has Cruise done that, scientology speaking, is more of a commitment than a Scientologist who works in an org or the Sea Org? Nothing.

Miscavige is the embodiment of Scientology morality and ethics.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
He just sounds like LRH to me! :D

true and DM would probably be very proud of the observation.

The difference - and I think there is one - is that Hubbard grew up, not in Scientology, but in the real world. For better or worse (and from reading a lot of his biography "worse" is a good description) he at least had to learn basic decency and manners. He may not have always used them but he had them. DM has nothing but Hubbardian influence.

If Hubbard had been brought up by Hubbard (interesting concept) I think he would make DM look like the spoiled little piker he really is.
 

Whitedove

Patron Meritorious
Scientology doesn't have any "basic moral codes" - it has some PR stuff that Hubbard put out to try and demonstrate that their was some core of honest morality, but there is no basic moral code to this thing.

Scientology "rewards" upstats - and defines upstat as having loads of money - and the only care it has about that "upstatness" is that how you got it should not reflect badly on Scientology. Arms dealer? No problem, as long as you are not being prosecuted, running a Ponzi scheme? More power to you until you get caught! Not paying taxes - become a Patron!

I do agree with you Mick. But its not that simple. There is SO much Scientology data and for one particular subject there can be quite a few data than can apply that it can be taken easily out of context or the wrong data apply in a situation (because there is more than one available for one subject and also some contradict themselves). Lets take the 'upstat' concept. How many information can you get from LRH regarding this. More than a few I must admit. I got aggravated more than once when I was a Scientologist because I saw some people fixated on one piece of information regarding a subject instead of looking at more than one and use the right one.

Miscavige has proclaimed Cruise the best Scientologist. Think about that for a second - here is a guy who's one claim to fame is that he has made a pile of money making movies (some of which I have enjoyed). Nothing wrong with that of course - but what has Cruise done that, scientology speaking, is more of a commitment than a Scientologist who works in an org or the Sea Org? Nothing.

See, my point exactly. Some part of the tech is corrupted because of who is using it. Not the information itself. Its not a bad one. I mean the concept of upstat and downstat in itself is good. Its how it is understood and use that is the problem. And of course by WHOM!

Miscavige is the embodiment of Scientology morality and ethics

I dont respect people because of their 'status'. I respect someone because of their honesty and integrity. I have so nooo respect for this man whatsoever and I truly truly hope from the bottom of my heart that the truth will come out soon.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
MICK W.
Scientology doesn't have any "basic moral codes" - it has some PR stuff that Hubbard put out to try and demonstrate that their was some core of honest morality, but there is no basic moral code to this thing.

BB
Although one may make a case for that there is a lot of LRH data on morality and loads of codes. Not that he would neccessarily follow them.
M
Scientology "rewards" upstats - and defines upstat as having loads of money - and the only care it has about that "upstatness" is that how you got it should not reflect badly on Scientology. Arms dealer? No problem, as long as you are not being prosecuted, running a Ponzi scheme? More power to you until you get caught! Not paying taxes - become a Patron!

BB
Thats the COS not scientology.

He gave us leave to INTERPRET policy. I and others took it. :)

The primary failure of COS was a reversal re deliver what it promised, and maintaining friendly relations with the environment Very senior PLs.
Then A reversal of service PL.

It seems the mission movement did not reverse and violate those 3 PLs.
And look how they blossomed.

From your point of view, considering the subject nonsense, just think how powerfull are those concepts from those PLs.
 

barky

Patron with Honors
Scientology doesn't have any "basic moral codes" - it has some PR stuff that Hubbard put out to try and demonstrate that their was some core of honest morality, but there is no basic moral code to this thing.

:lol:

Yeah, I thought I'd get in trouble for that post. What Scn does have is published, reasonable "moral codes" that it uses to portray itself as being an ethical organization. There are a lot of good policies there, like those mentioned in the post I quoted, that hook decent people in.

The secret, not-so-subtle truth to the thing is Scn is far from moral or ethical.

I was just trying to point out that if you claim to support a certain moral code, and you act the opposite because you're "in charge", you're a hypocrite, a liar, and, perhaps, a danger.

Like pedophile priests or Christian Nazi sympathizers or any other of the plethora of cosmic scumbags who hide anti-social personalities behind the veneer of religion.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Sounds like he knows that Scientology is a scam.

-Steve

No, it doesn't. It does sound, though, like he knows he's running a cult and that THAT is filled with lies.

As far as does he believe in the Scn philosophy- I think he does. Or so I hear.

He is said to be very vicious. Screaming at people, etc. He is also a party to people being held against their will on the RPF.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
MICK W.
Scientology doesn't have any "basic moral codes" - it has some PR stuff that Hubbard put out to try and demonstrate that their was some core of honest morality, but there is no basic moral code to this thing.

BB
Although one may make a case for that there is a lot of LRH data on morality and loads of codes. Not that he would neccessarily follow them.

Hey BB I'm not saying that some of the stuff Hubbard wrote would not have some validity - most of what is OK in the codes he wrote was already written by others before.

But I do not think Hubbard was trying to bring it about - I think Scientology was Hubbard trying to achieve his own personal goals and that had more to do with power and dominance than it did with morality.

M
Scientology "rewards" upstats - and defines upstat as having loads of money - and the only care it has about that "upstatness" is that how you got it should not reflect badly on Scientology. Arms dealer? No problem, as long as you are not being prosecuted, running a Ponzi scheme? More power to you until you get caught! Not paying taxes - become a Patron!

BB
Thats the COS not scientology.

No, it's Hubbard. You may not like it but that doesn't make it any the less Hubbardian.

He gave us leave to INTERPRET policy. I and others took it. :)

More power (lol) to ya. Seriously, if you can extract something beneficial out of it all that's great. It just is not Scientology.


The primary failure of COS was a reversal re deliver what it promised, and maintaining friendly relations with the environment Very senior PLs.
Then A reversal of service PL.

Well 'delivering what was promised' is a little hard when what is promised is unobtainable. It's not that people cannot feel better by getting some auditing, most probably can but that is not the promise of Scientology. Hubbard promised power, controllable, individual power.He never managed to achieve it himself and I sincerely doubt that there are any meaningful answers in his work.

It seems the mission movement did not reverse and violate those 3 PLs.
And look how they blossomed.

Look how many of them failed. Look how many of them were two bit non-functioning entities. I worked in the Office of CS 6 in 1978 and the vast majority of missions just plain sucked.

From your point of view, considering the subject nonsense, just think how powerfull are those concepts from those PLs.

I don't think they are powerful concepts at all, I think they are worthless. The only "powerful" thing in Scientology are some of the people. there are good people in Scientology, many of them - of course a lot less than there used to be.. It is the people who created good missions and good orgs, not hubbard's policies. people like Wisi Eisenring in Bern, Paderni in Milan, Bogvad in Munich, Alan in Dallas, Samuels in California. It was good people, not "powerful concepts" from Hubbard.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
:lol:

Yeah, I thought I'd get in trouble for that post. What Scn does have is published, reasonable "moral codes" that it uses to portray itself as being an ethical organization. There are a lot of good policies there, like those mentioned in the post I quoted, that hook decent people in.

The secret, not-so-subtle truth to the thing is Scn is far from moral or ethical.

I was just trying to point out that if you claim to support a certain moral code, and you act the opposite because you're "in charge", you're a hypocrite, a liar, and, perhaps, a danger.

You make a good point but I think you are possibly missing an important part of it.

Being a hypocrite in Scientology is not a bad thing.

Did you ever read anything that spoke against it? Scientologists are encouraged from the very start to not tell the whole truth about what Scientology is about. The policy "Dissem Drill" is very specific. So is the PR policy about the "acceptable truth".

Hypocrisy is not a crime in Scientology. Because Scientology is "so important" almost anything can be justified if it advances the cause.

for example - saying in Israel that Scientology is most definitely NOT a religion while at the same time trying to tell the IRS that it is. Whatever happened to the "clean hands make a happy life" ? Or "honesty"?

Like pedophile priests or Christian Nazi sympathizers or any other of the plethora of cosmic scumbags who hide anti-social personalities behind the veneer of religion.

Yes it's true there is the flavor of that about it.
 

barky

Patron with Honors
Hypocrisy is not a crime in Scientology. Because Scientology is "so important" almost anything can be justified if it advances the cause.

True, and that, IMO, is the key datum that ruins Scn and makes it untenable. Or, alternately, it is the key datum that should have "indicated" to me, you, and thousands of others who got sucked in to Scn.

There has been no valid movement for the betterment of society that has met with any success that has not had a fundamental check-and-balance to both its own power, and to its own guaranteed humility.

When we read all those KSW series PLs that talk about how Scn (or LRH) is always right, no matter what, that should have been the huge red flag, waving in the sun, signifying "danger".

I smelled it when I saw it, but I sort of brushed it aside and kept at it. In hindsight, my inability to spot that most egregious of "out-points" was disastrous.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Much of what's wrong with CofS can be found in "Source".

Of course, those things that are right with CofS or with Scn can also be found in "Source".

It's a mixed bag but there's no way I would ever consider Hubbard to be this blameless fluffy (you should pardon the expression) little lambie pie.

He was venal and corrupt in many many ways. It's a damn shame. I think there's a lot of truly terrific things in Scn that can help people (though I do think it's FAR MORE a YMMV proposition than Hubbard thought) and sometimes I speculate--what if he'd been as altruistic or even half as altruistic as he told people he was? Had that been the case...hey...I feel a new thread coming on!!!
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
No, it doesn't. It does sound, though, like he knows he's running a cult and that THAT is filled with lies.

As far as does he believe in the Scn philosophy- I think he does. Or so I hear.

He is said to be very vicious. Screaming at people, etc. He is also a party to people being held against their will on the RPF.

Hmmm... I wonder if he really believes in the whole alien space opera.

-Steve
 
Top