DM Vicious?

Little Bear Victor

Silver Meritorious Patron
200 to 300 of course.

Always found this data in contradiction with the birthday game idiocy.

Maybe a reason why this book has been gone out of print. ;)

Tech of LRH will dissolve in the future, thats what I think.

Parts of it will be "univerlized", that is pruned from his name and the name of his organizations.

B.

That's right. There's some useful stuff there, too, relatively speaking. Most of the entry level stuff and actually even a lot of the tech up to a point is more beneficial than destructive. Just compare it to other extant philosophies... At least LRH condensed some of the key points in many areas to something rather easily assimilatable, before he went off to the wild blue yonder.

Not that I'll be interested in it for a long time coming, but a new philosophy based on the sensible parts of his work would not necessarily be a bad thing. Obviously it could not be called Scientology, as that is an all-or-nothing proposition. I guess that's what all the "squirrel" groups are all about. (BTW, I hate the word "squirrel," due to LRH's definition of it; isn't there a better one for it -- to describe the offshoots from Scn in general, not just the FZ?)

I'm sure having been declared an SP sort of makes me keep my distance to the lot of it. Still, in any objective review, I find many good theories in Scientology. Likely the exact same ones that got me to believe in it in the first place. (Sucker!)

V
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I don't trust em either but have yet to see damaging alterations beyond snipping homophobic remarks and references to confidential materials, Aleister Crowley, etc...

Oh really? Hmm.

Hubbard claimed that he cured himself of being blind and left for dead after the war?

No evidence. The only written evidence - including stuff in Hubbard's own hand - is that he wasn't crippled and blinded. merely had an ulcer.

Hubard's biography has been altered on the website so many times that it is dramatically smaller than it used to be. Wonder why that would be.

Hubbard and his organization have lied about it and him since day one. How on earth could you possibly miss that?
 

Little Bear Victor

Silver Meritorious Patron
Oh really? Hmm.

Hubbard claimed that he cured himself of being blind and left for dead after the war?

No evidence. The only written evidence - including stuff in Hubbard's own hand - is that he wasn't crippled and blinded. merely had an ulcer.

Hubard's biography has been altered on the website so many times that it is dramatically smaller than it used to be. Wonder why that would be.

Hubbard and his organization have lied about it and him since day one. How on earth could you possibly miss that?

I assume he is referring to his personal knowledge and as regards earlier taped lectures versus newer edits only. A comment of a very limited scope. PMD is probably well aware of the PR reinterpretations of LRH's life.

Of course, comparing newer and earlier tape edits is not likely to be very fruitful. The earlier ones were edited for PR purposes already before they were put out; they aren't the original recordings either, in case someone thinks so. Same with books, you have to go to the first edition to get anywhere near how the book was initially put together by the evil transcriptionists.

V
 

krsanna

Patron
I assume he is referring to his personal knowledge and as regards earlier taped lectures versus newer edits only. A comment of a very limited scope. PMD is probably well aware of the PR reinterpretations of LRH's life.

Of course, comparing newer and earlier tape edits is not likely to be very fruitful. The earlier ones were edited for PR purposes already before they were put out; they aren't the original recordings either, in case someone thinks so. Same with books, you have to go to the first edition to get anywhere near how the book was initially put together by the evil transcriptionists.

V
I'm jumping into this discussion late in the sequences, because I was looking for Little Bear Victor's comments. Terril told me he was interested in the Mayan calendar, which I have worked with since 1992. Finding anyone who's been involved in Scientology to have any real interest in the Mayan calendar is so novel that I wanted to see what Little Bear Victor (LBV) had to say. Then I found his comments on the value and future of Scientology as a tech. Mmmmm... great topic for speculation and requires some ability to predict, which is my specialty with the Mayan calendar. Of course, each individual develops his/her own perception of Scientology and its tech with many personal variables that make each viewpoint and track unique.

A fairly recent parallel to Scientology (organization of comparable magnitude) was The Theosophical Society, founded in 1974 after Helena Blavatsky came to the U.S., in, as I recall, 1872. The growth curve of The Theosophical Society and Helena Blavatsky were similar to those of Scientology in many ways. Now, history does not have to repeat itself, and one does not even need history in strict terms. But that doesn't mean that history does not repeat itself and that people don't like to have histories to flesh out their stories.

The purpose of the Theosophical Society was to create an altruistic organization to further the aims of brotherhood humanity. The writings of Helena Blavatsky were the core (and a primary income) for The Theosophical Society (TS), who was as extraordinary woman in the Victorian Age. One of the little coincidences between the symbols of Scientology and the TS is that the group of students that Blavatsky selected for advanced work used a double triangle as its symbol. Blavatsky called this the Esoteric Section and the double triangle symbol is virtually lost to the TS, because the materials she issued to the Esoteric Section were recalled (returned from circulation) after her death in 1891. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section was supplanted by her successors with a garrish, comical system that easily rivals the Cof$'s symbol next to the runway by the vaulted repository in New Mexico.

At Blavatsky's death in 1891, followers of Theosophy splintered into 3 main branches which have all survived to the present amid tremendous disputes about Theosophy as a subject, not to mention application. The three main branches have developed numerous subgroups and interpretations. The original works of Helena Blavatsky were as brilliant and revolutionary in the Victorian Age as LRH's early works were at the dawn of the Cold War in 1950. "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health," "The History of Man," and "The Creation of Human Ability" are, in my personal opinion, brilliant.

In the parallel of Scientology to the TS, by 1886, Blavatsky had been virtually exiled from her own organization following much dispute about the administration of the TS. By 1888, one of Blavatsky's mentors with whom she remained connected to the end of her life had said that the TS had become a well run but soulless corpse. The well run TS survives to this day as a soulless corpse by publishing books at a time when they were a primary publisher of metaphysical literature. In the present, their income from publishing has been greatly reduced by proliferation of publishers of metaphysical literature and electronic communications.

The propensities of the population of this planet in 1986 at the time of LRH's death as they were in 1891 at Blavatsky's death. I suspect that the future of Cof$ will be similar to that of the Theosophical Society and run along as an organization until the society in which is functions simply outruns it.

I find much value in LRH's early work and personally believe that too many Scientologists bought into LRH's own PR about himself. LRH was pretty typical in that he wished to present himself within a crafted PR light, much the same as other people do. When some people see through LRH's PR, they stop looking to find out what else was really there that is useful. I like to look at what really was there behind the PR. LRH was a smart man with a strong background in the occult.

One of the LRH quotes I really like is from the Level 0 tapes, "Auditing Comm Cycles," 6 August 1963. I don't like this quote just because LRH said it. I like it because it parallels my own reality and understanding that I developed from numerous materials and not just LRH's work. Yet, it indicates that LRH understood a basic problem with which he had to deal on this planet. And it contributes to the understanding of how the highly sophisticated science of the Mayan calendar has been destroyed, lost, and completely reinterpreted within the restimulation and dramatization of Euramerica.

"Every once in a while somebody says, 'Well, why don't you...' something or other, something or other, something or other -- that's the crux of the situation -- ' Why don't you change all administrative actions? Why don't you alter all central organizational lines?' "Why don't you...' so forth. "Why don't we change everything in the course?' and so on. What they're dealing with is a problem they actually don't see the breadth and depth of.

"And that problem is this: The character of this planet and the population hereon makes it practically impossible to do anything with this planet. Now, I'm not taking off from a failure point. The stress and thought and prevention and cure and this and that which you have to go into on this planet to get anything done and running is absolutely fantastic...

"All right. Here's a population of, then, of minimal workers, maximal managers, artists, geniuses and perverts. What are you going to make out of this lot, huh?

"Well, actually, this group has gone ahead and made up, up until recent times, a totally different civilization than the civilization which planted it here. In the last ten thousand years, they have gone on with a sort of a decadent, kicked-in-the-head civilization that contains automobiles, business suits, fedora hats, telephones, spaceships -- quite interesting, but a civilization which looks an almost exact duplicate, but is worse off than the current U.S. civilization.

"Therefore, you find the current U.S. and Western civilization rather restimulative, because it has moved up to look like the Marcabian civilization. It's been moving up here rather rapidly. And now we're at a point, a very high level of restimulation, because the automobile design, the train design, ship design... and the fire engines and the stuff you do within men's clothes particularly -- all of these things are the same image. So you're going into a highly restimulative era, because we've not had this before. See? We've been moving up through strata of civilization, but we hadn't matched this one. And remember that this society at the present time looks dangerous; it looks very dangerous."

Best regards,
Krsanna Duran
 

Old Timer

Patron
I met DM several times and had the misfortune to speak to him once.

He tends to treat other in a demeaning fashion, if he want something he mostly yells, and he likes to speak in generalities.

He's also a short little fucker.
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
I met DM several times and had the misfortune to speak to him once.

He tends to treat other in a demeaning fashion, if he want something he mostly yells, and he likes to speak in generalities.

He's also a short little fucker.

Indeed. The Basics DVD clearly shows that he had been yelling like a madman by the sound of his voice. His voice tone also denotes that he is an unhappy abusive and vicious fuch, overing around 1.5 to 2.0. He is a short man and being. Unloved, unwanted and would make even the most experienced whore loser her TR0 and laugh to stitches to see him in his birthday suit most probably. :dieslaughing:
 

Pixie

Crusader
I've heard things that DM was a vicious two-faced liar. I've only seen the liar part, but not real sure about the two-facedness.

Does anybody actually know what DM is like?

-Steve
My ex husband and I were two of the top terminals in an org in a big city. McSavage was in town, he ordered us both off post to go to a large famous store to buy him some specific brand of aftershave only available in this city, and silk stockings for his wife. We went, bought the stuff although we never reimbursed the money for it and were then 'hammered' for leaving our posts for five hours. It took us that long to get accross the city. So there's where his attention was when the stats were crumbling. I met someone who was down from Flag who'd worked with him who told me he was very scary and would scream for nothing at people. A lot of people were afraid of him. He then sent down sticky bits to cover over the tech and admin vols, changing words, sentences, even whole paragraphs, we were shocked, astonished, what about KSW? When we questioned this, that's when the trouble started and we were hauled into ethics for being too 'noisy'. It all went downhill after that, and we were locked in a room for five days to cough up our 'crimes'.
 

Wisened One

Crusader
:omg: :omg: LOCKED in a room for FIVE DAYS?! Geeez.....:melodramatic: Can't wait to hear more details to THAT story...

Stories like these just make me sick. :no:

And seriously? DM was altering the Tech like that? WOW. IMMEDIATE boot off post!! He definately IS an SP (per Scamology's def, anyway).

My ex husband and I were two of the top terminals in an org in a big city. McSavage was in town, he ordered us both off post to go to a large famous store to buy him some specific brand of aftershave only available in this city, and silk stockings for his wife. We went, bought the stuff although we never reimbursed the money for it and were then 'hammered' for leaving our posts for five hours. It took us that long to get accross the city. So there's where his attention was when the stats were crumbling. I met someone who was down from Flag who'd worked with him who told me he was very scary and would scream for nothing at people. A lot of people were afraid of him. He then sent down sticky bits to cover over the tech and admin vols, changing words, sentences, even whole paragraphs, we were shocked, astonished, what about KSW? When we questioned this, that's when the trouble started and we were hauled into ethics for being too 'noisy'. It all went downhill after that, and we were locked in a room for five days to cough up our 'crimes'.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Zinj,

I'm telling you what I would have done. I posted pretty much the same thing back in 98 on a.r.s. in response to a post by a very nice lady named, I think, Brandy.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
I bumped into him a few times.

He just missed out on some of the basics:

To command is to serve.

The ARC triangle.

Deliver what you promise.

Only create effects other can experience easily.

The all too betelling "The overt doth speak loudly".

Clean hands make a happy life.

"Treat others as you would want to be treated".

Outflow is holier and more remunerative than inflow.



.....Maybe he had some basic disagreements with the tech?

Perhaps some granting of beingness.

A little pan-determinism.

and stop the damn games conditions...

I ran into him. I saw the effects on others, never experienced it myself. All I got directly from him was a calculating cold appraising stare.

A good friend did a project where Miscavige was directly involved. Once he came back he looked and acted shell-shocked. He refused to say anything at all about it but was very very bad indicators.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
edited...

I find much value in LRH's early work and personally believe that too many Scientologists bought into LRH's own PR about himself. LRH was pretty typical in that he wished to present himself within a crafted PR light, much the same as other people do. When some people see through LRH's PR, they stop looking to find out what else was really there that is useful. I like to look at what really was there behind the PR. LRH was a smart man with a strong background in the occult.

One of the LRH quotes I really like is from the Level 0 tapes, "Auditing Comm Cycles," 6 August 1963. I don't like this quote just because LRH said it. I like it because it parallels my own reality and understanding that I developed from numerous materials and not just LRH's work. Yet, it indicates that LRH understood a basic problem with which he had to deal on this planet. And it contributes to the understanding of how the highly sophisticated science of the Mayan calendar has been destroyed, lost, and completely reinterpreted within the restimulation and dramatization of Euramerica.

"Every once in a while somebody says, 'Well, why don't you...' something or other, something or other, something or other -- that's the crux of the situation -- ' Why don't you change all administrative actions? Why don't you alter all central organizational lines?' "Why don't you...' so forth. "Why don't we change everything in the course?' and so on. What they're dealing with is a problem they actually don't see the breadth and depth of.

"And that problem is this: The character of this planet and the population hereon makes it practically impossible to do anything with this planet. Now, I'm not taking off from a failure point. The stress and thought and prevention and cure and this and that which you have to go into on this planet to get anything done and running is absolutely fantastic...

"All right. Here's a population of, then, of minimal workers, maximal managers, artists, geniuses and perverts. What are you going to make out of this lot, huh?

"Well, actually, this group has gone ahead and made up, up until recent times, a totally different civilization than the civilization which planted it here. In the last ten thousand years, they have gone on with a sort of a decadent, kicked-in-the-head civilization that contains automobiles, business suits, fedora hats, telephones, spaceships -- quite interesting, but a civilization which looks an almost exact duplicate, but is worse off than the current U.S. civilization.

"Therefore, you find the current U.S. and Western civilization rather restimulative, because it has moved up to look like the Marcabian civilization. It's been moving up here rather rapidly. And now we're at a point, a very high level of restimulation, because the automobile design, the train design, ship design... and the fire engines and the stuff you do within men's clothes particularly -- all of these things are the same image. So you're going into a highly restimulative era, because we've not had this before. See? We've been moving up through strata of civilization, but we hadn't matched this one. And remember that this society at the present time looks dangerous; it looks very dangerous."

Best regards,
Krsanna Duran

Truth baits the trap. He, Ron, was quite right in that observation, but what happens is that viewpoint justifies the defensive posture, to a degree of idiocy only beginning to come to light, that the Church has taken, which cuts across and perverts holding a form of civilization needed to create a new civilization.

It's like the Church BECAME that which it fought.

The solution is to create, to out-create the issues and place a vision of the future there, and stop fighting everything around your environment, dammit. That which you put your attention is is what you create. If your fighting something you are very very busy creating enemies...

I loved that quote too, but watching what it precipitated, I'm not sure I do anymore.
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I've heard the same thing from people 'meeting with Ron'

Even Bill Franks :)

VBI dates back to the early 50s. Just ask Purcell

Zinj
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Oops! When you said that, it jogged my amnesiac memory. Of course Scientology has a basic moral code! They even have a pamphlet encapsulating it! The Way to Happiness! Precepts of pure joy.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
Truth baits the trap. He, Ron, was quite right in that observation, but what happens is that viewpoint justifies the defensive posture, to a degree of idiocy only beginning to come to light, that the Church has taken, which cuts across and perverts holding a form of civilization needed to create a new civilization.

It's like the Church BECAME that which it fought.

The solution is to create, to out-create the issues and place a vision of the future there, and stop fighting everything around your environment, dammit. That which you put your attention is is what you create. If your fighting something you are very very busy creating enemies...

I loved that quote too, but watching what it precipitated, I'm not sure I do anymore.

I think that has happened in many an organization--the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Witch Hunting. The "High Moral Ground" was bringing out the worst in people.
 

Pixie

Crusader
:omg: :omg: LOCKED in a room for FIVE DAYS?! Geeez.....:melodramatic: Can't wait to hear more details to THAT story...

Stories like these just make me sick. :no:

And seriously? DM was altering the Tech like that? WOW. IMMEDIATE boot off post!! He definately IS an SP (per Scamology's def, anyway).

It's the truth. It was called the 'sin bin', that is what it was known by, by SO and non SO alike. Things were not going well for the orgs at all in this country and a huge Flag mission was sent down to 'sort it all out'. My husband and I were in total overwhelm, understaffed, homeless, there were staff sleeping in the Purif area. We weren't allowed on the dole as this was 'other fish to fry', we couldn't pay the rent as our wages wouldn't have bought a packet of cigs, we were exhausted, I had just finished the EPF and was sent back to my org as my replacement had blown, my husband was SO in a class V org but not allowed to be in any sort of relationship unless he was married and they had to be SO, we got married and got into more trouble, we sat for two days and two nights in Qual pasting bits of 'squirrel' shit into the tech and pol vols, when we questioned this of the CJC we got into more trouble, when we wrote it up to McSavage we were sent to a higher org and told to write up O/W's for five days into the early hours of the morning, we were NOT allowed to leave and ended up having to make most of it up as we were (at that time) very much on LRH's side and trying to 'protect' the tech, we were extremely dedicated and heartbroken at what was happening. We had to go back to find somewhere to live and were followed and harrased and chased in the street and screamed at, the the car (we were sleeping in at the time) door kicked in. I know it sounds crazy, why did we put up with it, we knew something was wrong at the top, but we didn't know the whole thing was a con, I only found that out last year after ten years out and I haven't seen my husband for over ten years. It just all came to a head, I was always told I was 'too woggy', constantly 'out 2D' if I talked with a man. A bad nightmare does't come close. I'll have to start a new thread some day when I'm clearer in my head as the traumas are only coming back to me now. Hope this helps. This IS true.
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
It's the truth. It was called the 'sin bin', that is what it was known by, by SO and non SO alike. Things were not going well for the orgs at all in this country and a huge Flag mission was sent down to 'sort it all out'. My husband and I were in total overwhelm, understaffed, homeless, there were staff sleeping in the Purif area. We weren't allowed on the dole as this was 'other fish to fry', we couldn't pay the rent as our wages wouldn't have bought a packet of cigs, we were exhausted, I had just finished the EPF and was sent back to my org as my replacement had blown, my husband was SO in a class V org but not allowed to be in any sort of relationship unless he was married and they had to be SO, we got married and got into more trouble, we sat for two days and two nights in Qual pasting bits of 'squirrel' shit into the tech and pol vols, when we questioned this of the CJC we got into more trouble, when we wrote it up to McSavage we were sent to a higher org and told to write up O/W's for five days into the early hours of the morning, we were NOT allowed to leave and ended up having to make most of it up as we were (at that time) very much on LRH's side and trying to 'protect' the tech, we were extremely dedicated and heartbroken at what was happening. We had to go back to find somewhere to live and were followed and harrased and chased in the street and screamed at, the the car (we were sleeping in at the time) door kicked in. I know it sounds crazy, why did we put up with it, we knew something was wrong at the top, but we didn't know the whole thing was a con, I only found that out last year after ten years out and I haven't seen my husband for over ten years. It just all came to a head, I was always told I was 'too woggy', constantly 'out 2D' if I talked with a man. A bad nightmare does't come close. I'll have to start a new thread some day when I'm clearer in my head as the traumas are only coming back to me now. Hope this helps. This IS true.

Wow :omg:

Yes, when you're ready start your own thread for your story. It's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it :)
 
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