Do you still believe in your own past lives?
- Thread starter RolandRB
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programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
F/N VGIs indicates "charge off". It is not an indicator of "factual accuracy". Getting the "force" & "postulate" of an "incident" is typically sufficient to produce the VGIs as well as the meter F/N. That does not equate to "pc has the ""facts"" correct". It does indicate that what the pc is looking at is sufficiently similar to an actual source of "charge" as to cause a reduction in the adverse impact on the pc.
Ascertaining the "Truth of Facts" is straying into realms of significance which is not for an auditor to determine. Part of why it is necessary to avoid evaluating for the pc. What the "facts" are is irrelevant. Getting the pc to a better state is the goal of auditing.
During my lower bridge auditing I had a few incidents come up more than once. Each time the incident was handled to f/n vgi's and I finished that session with a different perspective on the particular "chain of events" of that incident.
My considerations about the incidents clearly changed as my auditing progressed. Eventually I had completely different perspectives about those incidents from my original ones.
Auditing progressively alters awareness. If a pc knew what it was to begin with it likely wouldn't be problematic to the point of coming up in a session.
Mark A. Baker
Yes, I know that, for instance, a Dianetic auditor is to run down the chain of force (e.g. pain in the left knee) and not get off on tangents about various significances in incidents. However, the significances do come out, for example, when one listens to the PDC Lectures (e.g. "doll people" and "cat people" on the whole track) or believing one to have been Julius Caesar. So, the Dianetic auditor may not be running down the significances as a chain BUT the significances are still there. These significances can be quite wrong but will still be believed and therefore can be delusional.
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mickturate
Patron
delusional: choice or indoctrination???
I may be low on the tone scale, I may be at times v. stupid...but I have noticed something: all originating ideas are very simple (not saying there's not some complex math behind gravity, e=mc2 etc) & this above....guys, move on, please, its a visibility cloak: something that creates the smokescreen of visibility, tangibility.
I say: don't tell me, show me, if $cilooontology were real, tangible, then the benefits would be tangible, not just in my head, your head or elcons head, they'd be out there in the world & they'd be so ******* exciting folks would do it for free. there would be facts, histories, books of experience where we could all learn why Nero fiddled as Rome burnt. you'd be able to show us where you buried the family silver.....aaaaaaaaaccccchhh!
F/N VGIs indicates "charge off". It is not an indicator of "factual accuracy". Getting the "force" & "postulate" of an "incident" is typically sufficient to produce the VGIs as well as the meter F/N. That does not equate to "pc has the ""facts"" correct". It does indicate that what the pc is looking at is sufficiently similar to an actual source of "charge" as to cause a reduction in the adverse impact on the pc.
Ascertaining the "Truth of Facts" is straying into realms of significance which is not for an auditor to determine. Part of why it is necessary to avoid evaluating for the pc. What the "facts" are is irrelevant. Getting the pc to a better state is the goal of auditing.
During my lower bridge auditing I had a few incidents come up more than once. Each time the incident was handled to f/n vgi's and I finished that session with a different perspective on the particular "chain of events" of that incident.
My considerations about the incidents clearly changed as my auditing progressed. Eventually I had completely different perspectives about those incidents from my original ones.
Auditing progressively alters awareness. If a pc knew what it was to begin with it likely wouldn't be problematic to the point of coming up in a session.
Mark A. Baker
I may be low on the tone scale, I may be at times v. stupid...but I have noticed something: all originating ideas are very simple (not saying there's not some complex math behind gravity, e=mc2 etc) & this above....guys, move on, please, its a visibility cloak: something that creates the smokescreen of visibility, tangibility.
I say: don't tell me, show me, if $cilooontology were real, tangible, then the benefits would be tangible, not just in my head, your head or elcons head, they'd be out there in the world & they'd be so ******* exciting folks would do it for free. there would be facts, histories, books of experience where we could all learn why Nero fiddled as Rome burnt. you'd be able to show us where you buried the family silver.....aaaaaaaaaccccchhh!
13heathens
Patron with Honors
Past Life Phht
Without the LRH/Scn framework I've dealt with plenty of people that have done past life regressions..
Cleopatra and Caesar are very popular ones. It never ceased to amaze me that these people were so damned convinced their past lives were true, and ever one of them had been someone insanely famous.
Show me someone who's past life is of a farmer living a mundane life tilling the fields and it would sound more credible than the 18th person claiming to have been on the titanic in a day time.
one of my favorite past life recollection tales had to do with the Titanic actually. One of them was 100% positive they were the main character of the movie Titanic in a past life (you know the completely fictional female lead) .. not even a passenger manifest would sway their belief.
Another fun occasion was when past lives came up while at an IHOP with a bunch of people after seeing the Rocky Horror Picture Show. One of the girls mentioned she'd been Anastasia in a past life, and another girl at the table got really mad because She had been Anastasia, not this other girl.. It nearly ended up in a fight.
My favorite all time story was this kid that insisted that he'd been Fred Astaire in his last life. This was early June, 1987. The timing was perfect Two weeks later Fed Astaire passed away, and I can't tell you how much fun I had calling him to tell him to turn on the news.
Without the LRH/Scn framework I've dealt with plenty of people that have done past life regressions..
Cleopatra and Caesar are very popular ones. It never ceased to amaze me that these people were so damned convinced their past lives were true, and ever one of them had been someone insanely famous.
Show me someone who's past life is of a farmer living a mundane life tilling the fields and it would sound more credible than the 18th person claiming to have been on the titanic in a day time.
one of my favorite past life recollection tales had to do with the Titanic actually. One of them was 100% positive they were the main character of the movie Titanic in a past life (you know the completely fictional female lead) .. not even a passenger manifest would sway their belief.
Another fun occasion was when past lives came up while at an IHOP with a bunch of people after seeing the Rocky Horror Picture Show. One of the girls mentioned she'd been Anastasia in a past life, and another girl at the table got really mad because She had been Anastasia, not this other girl.. It nearly ended up in a fight.
My favorite all time story was this kid that insisted that he'd been Fred Astaire in his last life. This was early June, 1987. The timing was perfect Two weeks later Fed Astaire passed away, and I can't tell you how much fun I had calling him to tell him to turn on the news.
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
I may be low on the tone scale, I may be at times v. stupid...but I have noticed something: all originating ideas are very simple (not saying there's not some complex math behind gravity, e=mc2 etc) & this above....guys, move on, please, its a visibility cloak: something that creates the smokescreen of visibility, tangibility.
I say: don't tell me, show me, if $cilooontology were real, tangible, then the benefits would be tangible, not just in my head, your head or elcons head, they'd be out there in the world & they'd be so ******* exciting folks would do it for free. there would be facts, histories, books of experience where we could all learn why Nero fiddled as Rome burnt. you'd be able to show us where you buried the family silver.....aaaaaaaaaccccchhh!
Mickturate, there've been a few posts where you've asked to be shown or for your questions to be answered but you don't always respond or acknowledge them.
Now, as far as your first comment or two-- of course you're not stupid or low toned. You're just fine and I'm glad you're here.
As far as moving on goes, well, if we all moved on there'd be almost no posts here...
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
The past life memories I do have are mostly of being a peasant, in one case a Renaissance era student, etc. Not everyone does the I was Cleopatra thing, of course. If you read Dianetics in Limbo, you'll see that Helen O'Brien also (and to a certain interested party- I never thought I was Helen O'Brien, btw) talks about past life memories that definitely weren't of famous people.
Hubbard talked about "dub-in" and he was aware of what some call "false memory syndrome" since early on in Scn. But the one thing a trained Scn auditor (other than maybe one person who will know whom I'm talking about) does not do is invalidate the past life recall of others even when it's plainly a false memory. The person eventually is going to have to work it out him or herself. I personally speculate that if one adopted the Buddhist mindset about not having ego that some of this false memory stuff of having been Cleopatra or Jesus (I knew a Jesus when I was in CofS) would go away.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Layers of delusion. As people look at this, usually the delusional stuff goes away. I have found that when a person is overly interested in past life stuff, it's usually because they cannot confront this lifetime. I run "then and now" on people who are thinking they are still living some lifetime or purpose from another life. By then and now, I mean I run UCP on these folks. Significances are present. Delusion happens. What's really interesting, to me, is when people pull off one layer of delusion, and immediately assume that what they've found underneath is "the Truth", when very likely, it's actually just another layer of delusion.
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RolandRB
Rest in Peace
You mean the Marcabs took over Fred Astaire's body in his latter years? Wow!
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Dude, 'twas peasant, not pheasant, though you may've caught on to something...when I'm being playful I do refer to things as being "pheasant" (instead of "pleasant"). It's basic Claire-ese.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Yes, and as significances they change "value" as personal awareness alters.
Additionally, I've experienced even more times in auditing, both giving & receiving, the relation of a particular event as though it were some notorious person or event in history. In these instances it isn't that the event or identity the pc is relating ARE the facts relating to a known historical event but that they are in some waysimilar to the historical event. It is often quite heavily "charged". By describing the matter by the historical context the pc feels better able to communicate.
This simply amounts to using the symbols you have in common to communicate. Basically, this is comm by historical analogy. One of my favorite "Star Trek: The Next Generation" focused on just this phenomenon.
In that episode the Enterprise crew have a "First Contact" with a similarly advanced alien species whose language is completely indecipherable to them. Communication is not properly established until the mythic & historic events of that "sector" of space are realized to be the key to understanding the language. It's essentially a retelling of the Gilgamesh myth. Love it!
Mark A. Baker
Pliny Younger
Patron with Honors
I never ran past lives well. I never got to the point where I believed in them.
I thought that the book that Jon Anchovie wrote really had a great section in it that he described how his auditing on past lives went and it really rang true to me how one get into the mindset of past lives in auditing. The whole book was a good read, but I thought that part was eye opening to me and would be a good reference for those who want to understand how past lives come up and one can be 'steered' into believing them.
I will find the page number of it if anyone is interested. I'm not at home now where the book is.
P.S. really enjoyed the info on OT VIII exam stuff.
I thought that the book that Jon Anchovie wrote really had a great section in it that he described how his auditing on past lives went and it really rang true to me how one get into the mindset of past lives in auditing. The whole book was a good read, but I thought that part was eye opening to me and would be a good reference for those who want to understand how past lives come up and one can be 'steered' into believing them.
I will find the page number of it if anyone is interested. I'm not at home now where the book is.
P.S. really enjoyed the info on OT VIII exam stuff.
programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
Yes, and as significances they change "value" as personal awareness alters.
Additionally, I've experienced even more times in auditing, both giving & receiving, the relation of a particular event as though it were some notorious person or event in history. In these instances it isn't that the event or identity the pc is relating ARE the facts relating to a known historical event but that they are in some waysimilar to the historical event. It is often quite heavily "charged". By describing the matter by the historical context the pc feels better able to communicate.
This simply amounts to using the symbols you have in common to communicate. Basically, this is comm by historical analogy. One of my favorite "Star Trek: The Next Generation" focused on just this phenomenon.
In that episode the Enterprise crew have a "First Contact" with a similarly advanced alien species whose language is completely indecipherable to them. Communication is not properly established until the mythic & historic events of that "sector" of space are realized to be the key to understanding the language. It's essentially a retelling of the Gilgamesh myth. Love it!
Mark A. Baker
Well... let's read a piece of this from the old man himself.
From: Philadephia Doctorate Course lecture #43 - ON AUDITING: HOW TO SUCCEED/FAIL, ASSESS
And there is lots more if anyone wants to read it.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Well... let's read a piece of this from the old man himself.
From: Philadephia Doctorate Course lecture #43 - ON AUDITING: HOW TO SUCCEED/FAIL, ASSESS
And there is lots more if anyone wants to read it.
Interesting reference but it is clearly non-sequitur to my post.
Mark A. Baker
Crummy
Patron
At the risk of invalidating others' belief in past lives, I always wondered; If there are aprox. 6 Billion people in the world today and each of them had a series of past lives dating back through the centuries, Then who were these people in the middle ages (for instance). At the time of Charlemagne (circa 800 AD) it is estimated that the population of Europe was 25-30 million.
So where were these 5,870,000,000 "thetans" living these past lives? I realize there were other peoples in Asia and elsewhere but I wonder how many PCs recall being a peasant in Mongolia, or a worker in the jungles of South America and surely the total population of the world was less than 100 million, so where were the other billions?
My other problem is that I saw a show about how the Dalai Lama, (Tenzin Gyatso) was chosen in Tibet and it was revealed that there were TWO childeren that knew things that only the Dalai Lama could know (from the previous,#13 Dalai Lama I believe). One was a girl. They figured out that Tenzin should be chosen.So he split up or what?
Also I remember when all of a sudden there where hundreds of Natural Clears,and past life clears. Suddenly LRH's stats were "booming". So many people went clear,died,came back and here they were in the 1970s, just twenty some-odd years since Dianetics began! There seemed to be zillions of them. (Incidentally,I knew a guy at ASHO Foundation (Mike Hawley) who was a new recruit.He smoked a joint and went into session and was declared "natural clear".)
Not sure what I believe now but I am leaning towards the stream of life idea as presented in the Hesse book "Siddartha".
So where were these 5,870,000,000 "thetans" living these past lives? I realize there were other peoples in Asia and elsewhere but I wonder how many PCs recall being a peasant in Mongolia, or a worker in the jungles of South America and surely the total population of the world was less than 100 million, so where were the other billions?
My other problem is that I saw a show about how the Dalai Lama, (Tenzin Gyatso) was chosen in Tibet and it was revealed that there were TWO childeren that knew things that only the Dalai Lama could know (from the previous,#13 Dalai Lama I believe). One was a girl. They figured out that Tenzin should be chosen.So he split up or what?
Also I remember when all of a sudden there where hundreds of Natural Clears,and past life clears. Suddenly LRH's stats were "booming". So many people went clear,died,came back and here they were in the 1970s, just twenty some-odd years since Dianetics began! There seemed to be zillions of them. (Incidentally,I knew a guy at ASHO Foundation (Mike Hawley) who was a new recruit.He smoked a joint and went into session and was declared "natural clear".)
Not sure what I believe now but I am leaning towards the stream of life idea as presented in the Hesse book "Siddartha".
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Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Both of these are interesting perspectives. With regard to the latter, I recommend you research the Tibetan Buddhist concept of the Tulku.
The simple answer is that reincarnation is a "simple explanation". Buddhist philosophy has evolved a much more complicated model (at least in explanation - the "mechanics" are simple
) to explain such apparent contradictions. Key to understanding is having had knowingly the spiritual experience itself. Other explanations also exist from various spiritual & philosophic traditions which reconcile these spiritual phenomena. They also tend to be complex in their descriptions (or supremely simple depending on viewpoint). However, readily understanding them is also often dependent on having experienced the phenomena for oneself.
The key thing about metaphysics that is often overlooked by "objectivists" is that the phenomena addressed are METAphysical and not metaPHYSICAL. That is, they are BEYOND the possibility of known physical processes. They are not thus limited by the "normal" rules of behavior we, as "physical" beings, find implicit in our physical environment.
Your first objection essentially boils down to an implicit "conservation law of the soul". This implies that in some sense a soul identity is inherently a "one to one" relationship. This need not be true spiritually speaking. Also implicit in your questions is that the "system of reincarnation is a closed system" and that all possible "venues for incarnation" are finite and known.
All of these assumptions have no logical basis for assertion about what are innately spiritual phenomena beyond the limits of the normal physical world. Although they may seem to be "natural" extensions of the behavior of the physical world into the realm of transcendental phenomena.
Previous incarnations need not have been on earth, within this galaxy, or within this universe, or even as a recognizable "life form". Nonetheless the language & imagery an individual would communicate such experiences reflects understanding which he currently has as conditioned by his present understanding. That typically does not reflect the full capacity of experience as a SPIRITUAL entity. Mental conditioning is what substantially shapes the world around us to ourselves.
Or as the Dhammapada so elegantly puts it: "you are what you think having become what you thought".
Mark A. Baker
programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
It is sequitur. You admit that the historical accuracy of whole track recall could be in error a lot of times (not just the small details either) and that it didn't matter anyway. LRH seems to talk about this stuff with a very different attitude/belief about this than you do on this thread. That is what I intended by the quote/reference. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Mark A. Baker said:
Would you please provide an HCOB reference for this?
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
A. Why do you want one?
B. What would be the point of your receiving one?
C. Do you imagine you are having a discussion with LRH?
I'm not LRH, nor have I ever limited my thinking to "LRH only".
If you wish to discuss LRH's views about such things then you should take up the subject either with LRH [n.b.: to my knowledge he doesn't currently post on ESMB] or somewhere where only his ideas are entertained. [hint: that also isn't on ESMB.] The actual topic of the thread deals with individual views relating to "past lives" not LRH's views.
Mark A. Baker
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Woo hoo!!! Gooooo Mark!!! Great posts!!!!!!!!!
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