Does anyone here believe that L. Ron Hubbard was sane?

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Once again I ran across the clip of the cult's official announcement of Hubbard's death after they realized they could not longer pretend he was still alive, and decided to watch it again

I found it rather odd how strongly Norman Starkey tries to emphasize Hubbard was of sound mind.

Just the fact that he would feel the need to mention it leads me to believe that anyone who recently came in contact with Hubbard knew he was nuttier that grandma's fruit cake,

but the fact that he feels the need to so strongly emphasize it pretty much confirms it.

Now back to my question;

Every now and then I'll read someone posting along the lines of ...

"Sure Hubbard was a 'flawed' individual but you shouldn't discount his entire body of work because of that, plenty of eccentric people made great discoveries"

Just to be clear , I'm not referring to Hubbard being 'eccentric', I'm referring to him being Batshit Crazy.

I'm curious does anyone here actually believe Hubbard was sane and not Batshit Crazy?

If so, please explain how you can possibly believe the man giving this lecture is playing with a full deck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hB7KJYIBwc

If I had the opportunity to listen to this lecture upon my introduction to Scientology, my interest in the value of Scientology would have lasted roughly five minutes, tops.


So Hubbard, basically, bitterly shares his rejected by Hollywood movie script, based on "Revolt In The Stars" book.
I kind a wish they made it into a movie. Imagine watching it with Mystery Science Theater 3000 comments production!
 
Okay... I'll bite.

The short answer for me is what Arnie said.

But here's a more "personal" take.

Firstly what is "sane" or "insane"? And what does defining it and "labelling" anyone with either actually resolve?

I don't personally give a flying fuck if you think I am sane or Hubbard was insane. It's a pointless conversation.

What is not pointless is what I do. Actions are everything. Judge me on those and I'll listen to what you have to say.

Hubbard's actions and what he did, on the whole and all things considered, could very well be described as insane. You would arrive at that conclusion by observing the number of people's lives that were devasted in his wake compared to those he "helped".

But going a step further in answering your original question I would say this;

Hubbard had a fierce intellect. But he was emotionally somewhere at the lower end of the scale that humans can grow to. In my view this is a scarily volitile mix. Comparisons to Hitler, though rebuked by some as too dramatic, are in my opinion very appropriate.

But was "Hubbard sane"? I haven't a clue. And I don't care. What he did and how we make sure his insane "way of life" is discontinued is far more important to me.
 
I was going through some old backup cds for a few old AutoCad drawings, and ran across a file from 2000 called rontass.txt and had no idea what is was until i opened it.

It looks like I copied it from ARS at the time,

I'm not sure who wrote it.

He or she might even still post here.

Anyway 13 years later and still just as relevant today as it was back then.

Subject: Re: Ron The Asshole Vol. I

"Public " wrote:

Scientology produces a condition of insanity in a person. However it is only
temporary and thankfully does not last. Once a person gets sick of being
ripped off and having their kindness and generosity abused on a daily basis
they eventually come to the astute realization that RON is an ASSHOLE.

And, funnily enough, once they realize this they never go back. So the the state
of RON THE ASSHOLE is a lasting, stable condition. This is a higher level than
any achieved by Operating Thetans, which are only temporary and imaginary.

Yes folks, RON THE ASSHOLE has been achieved by many people and can actually
be achieved without going thru the wringer, and you can do it for free.

That would be the RTA Cognition!
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Question - are the orgs in general crazier now under Miss Cabbage than when Hubbard was running the show? Is he a more omni-present sinister force than Hubbard was?

Yes, they are. The DSA now decides if it's ok for someone who's paid for their "Package" (as we used to call the Clear- OTIII set of services) to go off and do it.

The Golden Age of Crap- I mean, tech. They didn't just intro more drills- they told people that their certs were no longer good and they'd have to redo everything under GAT. That's a tech degrade, according to Hubbardism.

The Basic Books- OMG!

The Idle Org campaign!

That stupid Super Power building that never gets complete and the rundown never gets offered- plus it looks fucking goofy. I know Hubbard wrote it but I think DM embroidered the hell out of it.

New emeter after new emeter, each getting more and more insanely expensive.

6 month sec checks on OTVII- that's DM's creation.

Way more events and IAS fundraising. In fact (and those who were in then can correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think there WAS an IAS when Hub was alive.

Even more disconnection and mistreatment of critics. And from what Carol Nylund says, sounds to me like the SO got worse and worse.

I would never want to downplay the role Hubbard had in this, though I think that, over the years, some people have thought I would. He is the guy who set things up the way they're set up. It was his idea not to pay staff a decent wage. I remember- I think it was an HCOB, possibly- some passage somewhere where he says point blank something along the lines of none of this nonsense about paying staff a living wage. He's the guy who called ex SO members "DBs". He's the guy who signed off on MSH's efforts in the GO, wrote PLs on handling critics (meaning to go after them) and so on. I get that.

But DM's worse. After talking to people who'd had to work with him and reading accounts of others who also had and from what I did witness myself in the cult, yeah, I have to say DM's worse.
 
Yes, they are. The DSA now decides if it's ok for someone who's paid for their "Package" (as we used to call the Clear- OTIII set of services) to go off and do it.

The Golden Age of Crap- I mean, tech. They didn't just intro more drills- they told people that their certs were no longer good and they'd have to redo everything under GAT. That's a tech degrade, according to Hubbardism.

The Basic Books- OMG!

The Idle Org campaign!

That stupid Super Power building that never gets complete and the rundown never gets offered- plus it looks fucking goofy. I know Hubbard wrote it but I think DM embroidered the hell out of it.

New emeter after new emeter, each getting more and more insanely expensive.

6 month sec checks on OTVII- that's DM's creation.

Way more events and IAS fundraising. In fact (and those who were in then can correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think there WAS an IAS when Hub was alive.

Even more disconnection and mistreatment of critics. And from what Carol Nylund says, sounds to me like the SO got worse and worse.

I would never want to downplay the role Hubbard had in this, though I think that, over the years, some people have thought I would. He is the guy who set things up the way they're set up. It was his idea not to pay staff a decent wage. I remember- I think it was an HCOB, possibly- some passage somewhere where he says point blank something along the lines of none of this nonsense about paying staff a living wage. He's the guy who called ex SO members "DBs". He's the guy who signed off on MSH's efforts in the GO, wrote PLs on handling critics (meaning to go after them) and so on. I get that.

But DM's worse. After talking to people who'd had to work with him and reading accounts of others who also had and from what I did witness myself in the cult, yeah, I have to say DM's worse.

Hubbard got off on controlling people by psychologically abusing them, Miscavige is not bright enough to do anything psychological, he has to rely on fear and violence to control people.

Hubbard's reign of abuse was cut short by his incapacitating insanity and self medicating substance abuse which kept him in hiding the last decade or two of his life. You can't do much abusing when you soiled yourself and are curled up in a fetal position, whereas Miscavige keeps himself in good shape and can actively administer the evil required to KSW.

The one distinct characteristic I see between Hubbard's style of cult management and Miscavige's style of cult management is Miscavige see's himself as a general in the war against Hubbard's imaginary enemies, he enjoys going to battle. Hubbard on the other-hand saw himself as a prey being hunted by his imaginary enemies, he would much rather run and hide than engage in battle. Either way they're both about as batshit crazy as it gets, just different approaches to arriving at batshit crazy.
 

idrizomare

Patron with Honors
I was going through some old backup cds for a few old AutoCad drawings, and ran across a file from 2000 called rontass.txt and had no idea what is was until i opened it.

It looks like I copied it from ARS at the time,

I'm not sure who wrote it.

He or she might even still post here.

Anyway 13 years later and still just as relevant today as it was back then.

Even though I'm violating Rule 6, the contents on rontass.txt are too good not to repeat:

Subject: Re: Ron The Asshole Vol. I

"Public " wrote:

Scientology produces a condition of insanity in a person. However it is only
temporary and thankfully does not last. Once a person gets sick of being
ripped off and having their kindness and generosity abused on a daily basis
they eventually come to the astute realization that RON is an ASSHOLE.

And, funnily enough, once they realize this they never go back. So the the state
of RON THE ASSHOLE is a lasting, stable condition. This is a higher level than
any achieved by Operating Thetans, which are only temporary and imaginary.

Yes folks, RON THE ASSHOLE has been achieved by many people and can actually
be achieved without going thru the wringer, and you can do it for free.

That would be the RTA Cognition!

I heartily endorse making a new thread from that.

I don't know what sane and insane mean precisely, but I do think that Ron was rational. He got the things that he wanted in life. When he wanted the sexual favor of women, he got it. When we wanted an adoring and fiercely loyal wife, he got it (admittedly on the 3rd try). He wanted to make a lot of money and did so. He wanted people to adore him and consider him Mankind's Greatest Friend and he got that, too. Heck, people still cling to the notion of his greatness decades after his death and in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

There's the question of his sincerity. Did he believe all the hogwash he fed everyone? One of his amazing accomplishments was to get people to go along with the idea of agreed upon reality. If it's true for Ron that he's the greatest human, well ... then it might as well be true. I would argue that if Ron got himself to believe all the lies, he was even more successful.

People think Ron must be crazy because his invented reality didn't comport with actual reality. I'm in the middle of a book called "Mistakes were made (but not by me) Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts" by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. (It sounds most relevant to questions about Scientology but I can't in good faith endorse the book until I've finished it.) What I get from the book so far is that the correspondence between personal "reality" and actual reality for all of is, at best, approximate.

I've met pale imitations of Ron's personality type in my own life. Guys (yes, almost always guys) seemingly convinced of their own Special Greatness trying to get others to play along with varied success. I've had the equivalent of the RTA cog myself many times.

Ron famously said "If you want to control people, lie to them." It must be a weakness of human nature, but even though we intellectually know we're being lied to, we still can quite completely accept it. I see it about Scientology all the time. The Church makes up a membership figure (8 million! 10 million! 12 millon! Fastest growing religion!) and people who know better grumble that the number represents some trivial stat like number of people who have visited scientology.org or something rather than accept that the numbers are complete nonsense pull from thin air without any support.

So Ron tapped into some pretty powerful human flaws and weaknesses (another being his exploitation of the inherent charity in people) to get what he wanted. The things he wanted were not admirable and the price he extracted from other people was inexcusable, but given his desires and values, what he did made sense.

In conclusion, I don't think that Ron was insane, but I do agree with Public of ARS that Ron was an asshole.
 

R6Basic

Patron Meritorious
I'm sorry but all you nay-sayers have it wrong. Hubbard was CLEARLY sane!

As proof I offer my memory of a taped lecture from none other than Hubbard himself. I remember he stated that he underwent a psych eval because he did question if he had all his marbles.

When he signed in he used his name "Layfette" (or however you spell it). He states that he passed that eval with flying colors, the psych told him everything was fine. when Hubbard signed out he did it as "L. Ron Hubbard." The psych looked at it and said "Are you the Dianetics Hubbard?" Hubbard said "yes I am." The pysch stated "that can't be you are crazy!"

Since none other than an authority as Hubbard claimed and gave a story to prove his sanity I don't know how it could possibly be in question.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
Question - are the orgs in general crazier now under Miss Cabbage than when Hubbard was running the show? Is he a more omni-present sinister force than Hubbard was?

While Hubbard was bat-shit crazy in many ways, he had not managed to get rid of everyone around him who saw or projected something truly valuable in Scientology and in the intention to better people. You had Hubbard's statements being taken as honest declarations and then run with by people like Alan Walter, for example. There were people, not Hubbard, making things actually function. Costs weren't that high, people had lives outside of the orgs, and the show was on the road. 1950's and even into the 1960's.

The we have the ships and the Sea Arrrghh, and the OT levels and the secrecy and the Advanced Orgs and FLAG and Management (always a questionable breed anyway). And around 1982 Hubbard is isolated and really has only a single communication line to the outside world.

And he's crazy as usual and a failed case and pretty much a completely failed person, and he wants the fruits of his labors and he grabs millions. With Miscavige's help. There are still some people around who buffer the insanity but that buffer is getting very thin. We have KSW and source and other bullshit, the only road out ever for all eternity and "Clear the Planet in Five Years!" (Five Year Plans, anyone?).

Hubbard dies. Miscavige consolidates power. He's crazy, but without the charisma. He's just an asshole. And the buffer between the batshit crazy asshole guy at the top and the rest of the membership is pretty much gone.

So, yes, orgs are crazier than ever. But the source is not, it's just being more directly imposed on membership. Which are in turn thinning out. Good riddance. This whole thing is a huge waste of good people and good intentions, badly misdirected into a real estate scam.
 

ClearedSP

Patron with Honors
[video=youtube;vd1v7K5CsT4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd1v7K5CsT4&list=PL1D1FA03ADD02774F&index=3[/video]
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
What I find rather stale is blaming Miscavige for everything that is wrong with Hubbard's Mind fuck, but that doesn't stop anyone from posting about it, does it?

I'm just trying to find out if anyone here truly believes Hubbard was sane, and what would lead them to believe that.


I actually think this question has merit, because when I watched "The Master" (which isn't necessarily factually true to Hubbard, but, I feel, is spiritually true, which may be more important), I got the sense that this is a man who could be quite lucid and deeply charismatic, even through his illness.

My sense, and there is probably no way to prove this, is that LRH had "disturbances" that became worse over time. Wright writes in "Going Clear" that at one point Hubbard asked for psychological help soon after he left the military and for whatever reason it was deferred or denied, but he never got it. He knew something was wrong.

I believe that the "progression" of Scientology from Dianetics and the Communication Course to the advanced OT levels is a great way of tracking LRH's mental illness through the years. Hubbard's genius is that he created a step-by-step, methodical window into his own mental health, what he aspired to heal in himself and failed. If you go up the bridge, you too can have the same paranoid schizophrenic psychotic break that I believe he eventually had -all the way to flipping out at OT III and above because millions of creatures are inhabiting space within your body - which is a fascinating metaphor for a fractured personality.

People need to be reminded, especially in the independence movement, how violent Ron could be. I remember it shocked me reading Wright's book the violence LRH was capable of, particularly against women.

The reason why Scientology will never stand beside any serious form of transformational therapy (no matter how much Marty Rathbun and others try to force it) is because Scientology requires too much coercion to be effective. Scientology is marked by violence and morbidity, the antithesis of healing.

I loved The Master because in those scenes where someone disagreed with the teachings, Joaquin Phoenix would just beat the shit out of them. I feel like he and Phillip Seymour Hoffman represented two parts of LRH's psyche.

David Miscavige is a crud little thug, a lunchroom bully...but it LRH who had enough brilliance to be the architect of an entire movement that still exists today. And I don't admire him. My only point is that I believe there was a gradual disintegration of an already precarious psychological state, so the question is more complicated than yes and no.
 
... My only point is that I believe there was a gradual disintegration of an already precarious psychological state, so the question is more complicated than yes and no.

:yes:

And I also agree that his writings and lectures provide an indirect view of that which was genuinely troubling him and occupying his thoughts. Not in the way he wanted others to accept those works, but in the fears and ideas with which he was himself preoccupied.


Mark A. Baker
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
...I found it rather odd how strongly Norman Starkey tries to emphasize Hubbard was of sound mind...
LRH allegedly signed a new will in his last week of his life in the middle of a palace coup.

Could be that they were told by there lawyers to say nothing that might indicate he was not competent to sign his will?

charlesmansonscientolog.png
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
. . . <smip> . . . My sense, and there is probably no way to prove this, is that LRH had "disturbances" that became worse over time. Wright writes in "Going Clear" that at one point Hubbard asked for psychological help soon after he left the military and for whatever reason it was deferred or denied, but he never got it. He knew something was wrong . . . <snip> . . .

Maybe L Ron Hubbard did know there was something wrong with himself mentally. It is equally likely, however, his letter seeking psychiatric assistance was part of his attempt to increase his veterans' pension. He kept that pension up until his death, despite various and on-going protestations that Dianetics had cured him completely. Anyhow, here's the DOX on that request for assistance:

6604713605_7d5cd8b2d4.jpg
 

Boson Wog Stark

Patron Meritorious
Once again I ran across the clip of the cult's official announcement of Hubbard's death after they realized they could not longer pretend he was still alive, and decided to watch it again

I found it rather odd how strongly Norman Starkey tries to emphasize Hubbard was of sound mind.

I think they were straddling a line between Hubbard being criminal (co-conspirator in Snow White and/or hiding to protect himself and the future of Scientology) and rumors of him losing it mentally or physically. They didn't really want to talk or even think about any of those things. I guess that was a function of Scientology training to think of one's case, getting up the Bridge and just to move on in that way. So, it was just Starkey's way of assuring people that Hubbard was hiding to protect Scientology, not because he was getting nuttier than a fruitcake and falling apart.

For me, the Death Event issue that I find most striking is that Hubbard claimed to have assorted health nostrums, and claimed the ability "to control the aging process," yet died at 74. I would think that in spite of being uncertain of their own "cases," most Scientologists would think of Hubbard as living to be 100 at least, and shocked that he should die so young. But, I guess being in hiding for so long, kind of shrouded in mystery, prepared people for anything, and they were more flexible because of that.

No matter how much some ex-Scientologists hate Miscavige, one of the things I could see even from that Death Event was that he exuded a certain confidence that members must have clung to like a life raft at the time (and still do today), whereas people like Pat Broeker didn't, at all.

One thing that strikes me about the tape is the levity of it, when later on Scientologists are supposed to take the same OT III crap so dead seriously. It is one of the problems I had in understanding Scientology that it seemed to fluctuate from the absurd -- the musings of an imaginative sci fi writer -- to the precision of the "tech" and the elaborate and controlling nature of Hubbard's administrative policies.

Sometimes it seems like an uncomfortable levity too, like members aren't sure when they are supposed to laugh.

When I first heard these tapes, I assumed that a lot of mind control was involved for people to accept that 75 million years ago, houses and streets looked much the same as they did in the 50s or 60s. Yup, that all sounds pretty crazy to me -- totally unfathomable really. It's one of the reasons I don't understand why people getting involved in this today, aren't more interested in hearing Hubbard lecture, before they jump in. Then again, I don't understand Dianutty either, except the appeal it had for some in the 50s.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I think Miscavige just ended up being the random Ronbot who happened to be the one ruthless enough to take Hubbard's place. If it wasn't him, it would have been another random Ronbot running the dysfunctional show right now and taking all of the blame for Hubbard's handy work. I find Miscaviage to be inconsequential, if he cashed out tomorrow and left for a Caribbean Island to retire, the abuses would continue unabated just as if he never existed.

Very interesting take on this. I do sometimes wonder what would have happened had a different person taken over. Well, we know it was attempted. Chances are, it wouldn't have been any better than what we have now. Maybe just a different kind of crazy??
 
He was sinisterly insane.

You would have to be to create a technology that damages people but calls it help.

there is some weapons grade psychology in ron's work

but if it is used intelligently by a person of good will his work can be used for betterment

consider a scalpel. anyone can use it to commit murder. a very high degree of training is necessary to use it for heart surgery

was ron batshit crazy?

i'm batshit crazy at times. in fact i could not do the most important things i do unless i'm batshit crazy. but i do return to relative sanity for a crazy old hippie

insane?

yes

i have been insane. in 1980 that lefthanded black irish ex-nun i married pushed me all the way to insane. the only difference between me and a man who murdered his wife is i didn't murder my wife. but i ws there, all the way to black; absolute absence of moral or ethical restraint and it is horrifying to know that i could be thus

was ron insane? i'd guess he had moments but chronic psychopath?

too much excellence in his work for chronic psychopath
 
I think they were straddling a line between Hubbard being criminal (co-conspirator in Snow White and/or hiding to protect himself and the future of Scientology) and rumors of him losing it mentally or physically. They didn't really want to talk or even think about any of those things. I guess that was a function of Scientology training to think of one's case, getting up the Bridge and just to move on in that way. So, it was just Starkey's way of assuring people that Hubbard was hiding to protect Scientology, not because he was getting nuttier than a fruitcake and falling apart.

For me, the Death Event issue that I find most striking is that Hubbard claimed to have assorted health nostrums, and claimed the ability "to control the aging process," yet died at 74. I would think that in spite of being uncertain of their own "cases," most Scientologists would think of Hubbard as living to be 100 at least, and shocked that he should die so young. But, I guess being in hiding for so long, kind of shrouded in mystery, prepared people for anything, and they were more flexible because of that.

No matter how much some ex-Scientologists hate Miscavige, one of the things I could see even from that Death Event was that he exuded a certain confidence that members must have clung to like a life raft at the time (and still do today), whereas people like Pat Broeker didn't, at all.

One thing that strikes me about the tape is the levity of it, when later on Scientologists are supposed to take the same OT III crap so dead seriously. It is one of the problems I had in understanding Scientology that it seemed to fluctuate from the absurd -- the musings of an imaginative sci fi writer -- to the precision of the "tech" and the elaborate and controlling nature of Hubbard's administrative policies.

Sometimes it seems like an uncomfortable levity too, like members aren't sure when they are supposed to laugh.

When I first heard these tapes, I assumed that a lot of mind control was involved for people to accept that 75 million years ago, houses and streets looked much the same as they did in the 50s or 60s. Yup, that all sounds pretty crazy to me -- totally unfathomable really. It's one of the reasons I don't understand why people getting involved in this today, aren't more interested in hearing Hubbard lecture, before they jump in. Then again, I don't understand Dianutty either, except the appeal it had for some in the 50s.

SNOW WHITE WASN"T A CRIME GODDAMMIT!!!!!!

a bunch of americans infiltrating the united states government is only a crime if you're a scumbag who wants to keep government away from americans
 
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