Does it have to be this way?

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Hubbard needed to be seen as The Big Cheese. His ego was that big but his self-esteem was that small that being logical TOOK A BACK SEAT.

It has been said that the best way to harm a rich man is not through his money but through his pride. Hubbard had heaps of money, he needed his ego to be stroked and destroying the Mission Network put him and his church back onto the top of the pile. It has been commented on before that the Missions in the LA area were bigger and more profitable than the Orgs, that the public were better treated in the Missions and that the Holders were growing in statue.
The history of the tech of scientology has displayed that Hubbard culled anyone who began to be seen as his equal by the adherents. Think of Mayo, CBR, Walters,Roos even Volney Mathison.

Hubbard wanted admiration and by destroying the Missions, he may have lost revenue but he secured heaps of future admiration and that is the most valuable particle in the universe said the great ot.

You make good points, however, re: red - that is exactly my point. What if such a person put in those actions that boomed the missions into effect throughout Scientology? If they relaxed the disconnection BS, etc. and made an effort to turn it into a theta scene?

Earlier in the thread, someone commented a person couldn't just march in and change the tech, yet that's exactly what Miscavage is doing. He blames it on rogue transcriptionists, he called it the blind leading the blind, or he just makes a change without announcing it, such as ceasing to deliver the BC or collapsing ASHO D& F into one org.

Yes the internet is full of horrible pr on scientology, however, a savy new guy blaming it on Misacavage, making drastic cuts of the more dreadful policies, and "finding" LRH advises recommending these actions - is there any reason it couldn't be done?

Mimsey

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Even as I wrote her name, in the back of my mind I was thinking 'there's something dodgy about M. Theresa', but I was hoping no one would notice. I was using her as a metaphor for a morally blameless individual. Oh well...

I still use the very same metaphor myself on occasion, it's one of those things (there are a few) that just comes out of my mouth every now and then ... without my approval.

 

[Some Random Guy]

You make good points, however, re: red - that is exactly my point. What if such a person put in those actions that boomed the missions into effect throughout Scientology? If they relaxed the disconnection BS, etc. and made an effort to turn it into a theta scene?

Earlier in the thread, someone commented a person couldn't just march in and change the tech, yet that's exactly what Miscavage is doing. He blames it on rogue transcriptionists, he called it the blind leading the blind, or he just makes a change without announcing it, such as ceasing to deliver the BC or collapsing ASHO D& F into one org.

Yes the internet is full of horrible pr on scientology, however, a savy new guy blaming it on Misacavage, making drastic cuts of the more dreadful policies, and "finding" LRH advises recommending these actions - is there any reason it couldn't be done?

Mimsey

It could be done. I agree. Very un-likely though, especially that disconnection thingie as it is an integral part of scientology.

Change what you want, add whatever you feel works, then it ain't scientology, it may be something better?????

 

[uncover]

..... Scientology ..... to turn it into a theta scene?
.....

What an oxymoron. You are talking about something impossible.

Even if you remove all the snakes from a snakepit then it still will be a snakepit. Not to mention that you would have to remove the mother of all snakes first: El Con Hubbard.

And you forget the reason, why the missions were successful:
They were not allowed to deliver the insane Xenu-BT-Cluster-Space-Opera-vomit.
A Comm-Course ? Fine, does no harm.
A Student-Hat ? Cool to learn how to use dictionaries.
An E-Meter Course ? Funny pastime to learn how to proper use a toy.
Some NED-Auditing ? maybe helpful to some.... even part of the grades.

But this is NOT "Scientology". This is only the bait for the big fraud. Scientology/Hubbardism consists of the outdated green volumes and the insane Xenu-BT-Cluster-Space-Opera-vomit too.

Another problem is that in Scientology ideology the "third dynamic" is excessive superior to the first dynamic (it is visible e.g. with Co$-ethics - In a sane world ethics is something inidividual and NOT a third dynamic action). This third dynamic superiority may satisfy the wet dreams of some flower-power-woodstock-remnants or some typical looser-type Sea-Org-member ("Alone I am only a POS, but together we are strong and will change the world so that I can raise above the now so overly powerful unbelievers aka 'SP's' "), but as long as the third dynamic is superior (= suppressive) to the individual it is impossible that there will be any "theta scene".

If you - inevitably - omit that BS, then it is not Scientology. What is left then are the pieces Hubbard stole from others. And for that you neither need(ed) Hubbard nor Scientology.

 

[strativarius]

I still use the very same metaphor myself on occasion, it's one of those things (there are a few) that just comes out of my mouth every now and then ... without my approval.

Another metaphor has sprung to mind trubs. Pot/kettle!

Ps. I'm a big fan of Christopher Hitchens myself.

 

[Enthetan]

You make good points, however, re: red - that is exactly my point. What if such a person put in those actions that boomed the missions into effect throughout Scientology? If they relaxed the disconnection BS, etc. and made an effort to turn it into a theta scene?

I think the thing which made the Missions viable, was the same thing which made them intolerable to LRH and DM: they had some independence from Int control, and they didn't have to send as big a percentage of their money uplines, thus allowing them to pay staff better and invest in facilities (and having toilet paper).

Somebody with Mission experience please correct me, but I think missions and field auditors just needed to send up 10% of gross, keeping the remaining. Orgs sent up a much bigger percentage.

 

[JustSheila]

You make good points, however, re: red - that is exactly my point. What if such a person put in those actions that boomed the missions into effect throughout Scientology? If they relaxed the disconnection BS, etc. and made an effort to turn it into a theta scene?

David and Julie Mayo did that already.

He and Julie are no longer scientologists and see the whole subject as bullshit. Not only has David left and found that real life is better than anything scn has to offer, but those who were with David Mayo also left scn completely.

David Mayo had the largest worldwide squirrel group in scn history.

Does that tell you anything?

What an oxymoron. You are talking about something impossible.

Even if you remove all the snakes from a snakepit then it still will be a snakepit. Not to mention that you would have to remove the mother of all snakes first: El Con Hubbard.

Exactly!

 

[Ted]

I think the thing which made the Missions viable, was the same thing which made them intolerable to LRH and DM: they had some independence from Int control, and they didn't have to send as big a percentage of their money uplines, thus allowing them to pay staff better and invest in facilities (and having toilet paper).

Somebody with Mission experience please correct me, but I think missions and field auditors just needed to send up 10% of gross, keeping the remaining. Orgs sent up a much bigger percentage.

Correct. 10% of corrected gross income. (CGI)

That was bumped to 11% in order to support the newly-formed Mission Office US out of Orange County. However, since that 1% was not an LRH policy some missions complied and some did not.

For our 10% we received, almost weekly, new HCOB's, PL's, B-Day Game BS, and sometimes promo posters to hang on the walls. We were left alone until 1980 or so when the GO wanted 10% of our Coke machine and our honor-system geedunk box. We said, "No!" And they eventually went away.

 

[LA SCN]

I think the thing which made the Missions viable, was the same thing which made them intolerable to LRH and DM: they had some independence from Int control, and they didn't have to send as big a percentage of their money uplines, thus allowing them to pay staff better and invest in facilities (and having toilet paper).

Somebody with Mission experience please correct me, but I think missions and field auditors just needed to send up 10% of gross, keeping the remaining. Orgs sent up a much bigger percentage.

Correct. 10% of corrected gross income. (CGI)

That was bumped to 11% in order to support the newly-formed Mission Office US out of Orange County. However, since that 1% was not an LRH policy some missions complied and some did not.

For our 10% we received, almost weekly, new HCOB's, PL's, B-Day Game BS, and sometimes promo posters to hang on the walls. We were left alone until 1980 or so when the GO wanted 10% of our Coke machine and our honor-system geedunk box. We said, "No!" And they eventually went away.

It was 1972 when I bit the scn apple at a franchise - mission - in the southwest US. It was a very pleasant experience, the mission holder and ED were very nice, able folks. Nothing like the nutty, regimented scene of 'bigtime' scn orgs. Had it been, I'd have given scn a wide berth...

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

David and Julie Mayo did that already.

Snip
David Mayo had the largest worldwide squirrel group in scn history.

Does that tell you anything?

Exactly!

Yes it does - it was a workable idea - so workable that they were attacked mercilessly by the C of S until they were disbanded.

The C of S is a monopoly. It like any other, seeks to eliminate or buy out any form of competition, so it has the whole field to itself. Hence it's attacks on any squirrel group, and to some degree, the mission system.

The public that frequented the missions only knew what the Scientology that was doled out as Scientology. This is much the same scenario. going on in big time Scientology - the public now knows it as a donation based fund raising organization with such tentacles as the IAS, Ideal Org programs, planetary disem etc. They don't know the Scientology as I knew it in the 60's, 70's and early 80's as an organization bent on delivering auditing and training.

If it went back to that base, that mind set, wouldn't it flourish? When all the heavy reging, the price increases, the enforced retraining under gat, the forced purchase of the basics became scientology, they slit their own throats. The public stayed away. If you take all that away, and focused on tech delivery, and not fund raising, why wouldn't it flourish? He did have some tasty cheese to bait the trap.

I am not denying Hubbard was all about squeezing the public for all the cash he could get his hands on, but he did try to deliver his product. He also built up a massive liability in undelivered services. Who was it that revised the refund policy? Hubbard or Miscavage? It effectively slashed the throat of that liability, and the IAS dono form, broke the knees of getting refunds from them.

That was a big early sales point - you could get your money back. It was a part of the IRS parley, and it was a dead duck before the ink was dry on the paper. It was a red herring that they dragged in front of them to appear benevolent.

I feel that way about Trump - he will say anything to get elected. You don't know what he stands for, since he panders to everybody. You only know he wants to get elected. Nothing else is known. Scientology is built on that same model. You don't know what it really is, you just see this rhetoric that appeals to the idealistic, and the gullible. That will work forever, because he hit his mark dead on.

If you got off the current toxic policies, and delivered the basic stuff, why wouldn't that work as a business model?

Mimsey

 

[JustSheila]

What I said was:

David and Julie Mayo did that already.

He and Julie are no longer scientologists and see the whole subject as bullshit. Not only has David left and found that real life is better than anything scn has to offer, but those who were with David Mayo also left scn completely.

David Mayo had the largest worldwide squirrel group in scn history.

Does that tell you anything?

Bold added. They all left scn completely. That's the point.

 

[Enthetan]

It was 1972 when I bit the scn apple at a franchise - mission - in the southwest US. It was a very pleasant experience, the mission holder and ED were very nice, able folks. Nothing like the nutty, regimented scene of 'bigtime' scn orgs. Had it been, I'd have given scn a wide berth...

That's a big reason for Scn expansion during the pre-1980's period. Many people's first taste of it was with the relatively-non-crazy missions and field auditors. Get them sufficiently sucked in that they don't run away when they get to the orgs.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

What I said was:

Bold added. They all left scn completely. That's the point.

They were driven away. They didn't shut down voluntarily. They were destroyed by a vengeful god. They were too successful delivering a viable alternative. They were made to sign NDE's and were paid off. Their group was attacked mercilessly. They have been gagged. David posted here a little bit then vanished. He can't say shit because of what he signed. He's not a Gerry Armstrong who keeps on talking.

Why, after that treatment would they remain iin the flock?

Mayo did have a going thing for a while, and it proves my point - it can work if delivered in a sane fashion. They delivered the whole damn bridge. lock, stock and barrel.

Mimsey

 

[strativarius]

Yes it does - it was a workable idea - so workable that they were attacked mercilessly by the C of S until they were disbanded.

The C of S is a monopoly. It like any other, seeks to eliminate or buy out any form of competition, so it has the whole field to itself. Hence it's attacks on any squirrel group, and to some degree, the mission system.

The public that frequented the missions only knew what the Scientology that was doled out as Scientology. This is much the same scenario. going on in big time Scientology - the public now knows it as a donation based fund raising organization with such tentacles as the IAS, Ideal Org programs, planetary disem etc. They don't know the Scientology as I knew it in the 60's, 70's and early 80's as an organization bent on delivering auditing and training.

If it went back to that base, that mind set, wouldn't it flourish?

No. There was no Internet to speak of in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. Nowadays people are too well-informed to be conned like my generation was.

When all the heavy reging, the price increases, the enforced retraining under gat, the forced purchase of the basics became scientology, they slit their own throats. The public stayed away. If you take all that away, and focused on tech delivery, and not fund raising, why wouldn't it flourish? He did have some tasty cheese to bait the trap.

I am not denying Hubbard was all about squeezing the public for all the cash he could get his hands on, but he did try to deliver his product. He also built up a massive liability in undelivered services. Who was it that revised the refund policy? Hubbard or Miscavage? It effectively slashed the throat of that liability, and the IAS dono form, broke the knees of getting refunds from them.

That was a big early sales point - you could get your money back. It was a part of the IRS parley, and it was a dead duck before the ink was dry on the paper. It was a red herring that they dragged in front of them to appear benevolent.

I feel that way about Trump - he will say anything to get elected. You don't know what he stands for, since he panders to everybody. You only know he wants to get elected. Nothing else is known. Scientology is built on that same model. You don't know what it really is, you just see this rhetoric that appeals to the idealistic, and the gullible. That will work forever, because he hit his mark dead on.

If you got off the current toxic policies, and delivered the basic stuff, why wouldn't that work as a business model?

See above.

 

[Elronius of Marcabia]

That's a big reason for Scn expansion during the pre-1980's period. Many people's first taste of it was with the relatively-non-crazy missions and field auditors. Get them sufficiently sucked in that they don't run away when they get to the orgs.

The myth of missions and the mission holders as some sort golden age is understandable given
the friends and comraderie and even loyalty to the Mission Holders.

But please lets get a little reality on these and I was at one of these so called viable sucessful
"theta" missions and the majority of the staff were making shit for wages moonlighting and living
on cheese sandwhich's and sharing apartments sleeping on couches.

Yeah a few made what would be considered a livable wage at the expense of the others.

I guess what I'm saying is it was a front, put on a happy face for the "public" so uptone
so theta, but just under that was miserable conditions for most of the staff.

Maybe it was different at whatever mission you were at but I doubt it

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

No. There was no Internet to speak of in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. Nowadays people are too well-informed to be conned like my generation was.

The internet is too big and it is too small. There is so much content out there we pick and choose. On the other hand, there's many times I try to find information, and it is nonextant.

Look how many people get sucked into Narconon by the internet. I don't see it as an insurmountable barrier, if you mount a big "the big bad witch is dead" campaign and slowly turn the image around.

Hubbard regularly cleaned up the field with amnesties. Why not do it again? How many true believers are waiting for the day they can once again go back in to the org and not feel hounded for cash on every corner, to live that heady "we are doing something about it" life again? I enjoyed being a Scientologist until it turned nasty. Once I found out what it really was, I felt greatly betrayed, and I would never go back.

Yes, the internet, and sites like this educated me. But how many people have the similar desire to invest the time into understanding what happened to the dream I was living? Or find out if it is a con? I see those body routers out there on sunset, dragging people to the org. Some of them will stay, will have wins and disregard the negative pr. Yes? No?

Mimsey

 

[Leland]

The myth of missions and the mission holders as some sort golden age is understandable given
the friends and comraderie and even loyalty to the Mission Holders.

But please lets get a little reality on these and I was at one of these so called viable sucessful
"theta" missions and the majority of the staff were making shit for wages moonlighting and living
on cheese sandwhich's and sharing apartments sleeping on couches.

Yeah a few made what would be considered a livable wage at the expense of the others.

I guess what I'm saying is it was a front, put on a happy face for the "public" so uptone
so theta, but just under that was miserable conditions for most of the staff.

Maybe it was different at whatever mission you were at but I doubt it

I recall an Auditor at Ty Dillard's Mission on 16th St. in Washington DC.

He audited for years there....and (from what I heard ) was promised to have his OT levels paid for at AOLA.

He never got them.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I recall an Auditor at Ty Dillard's Mission on 16th St. in Washington DC.

He audited for years there....and (from what I heard ) was promised to have his OT levels paid for at AOLA.

He never got them.

I knew Ty and his sisters -but lets take the Beverly Hills Mission - they had pc's all over the country. Susan Becher would be flown to people's homes where she would live and audit them. They were successful. then one fine day.... They were told they couldn't have out of town PC's. The mission died.

My point being, the missions flourished as long as the orgs kept off their lines. The Coles had a mission in Albany NY - Rosser told me - you can't violate the 100 mile rule. I asked what that was - he said you can't have a mission closer to an org than 100 miles, or they will rip off your staff and pc's. It's close enough for them to send you the books you need and far enough away they can't drive by and rip you off.

That's been going on in Scientology forever. The orgs rip off the missions, the upper orgs rip off the outer orgs, the recruiters rip off anybody they see, and the IAS rips off the reges. Why do something sensible like Jeff Hawkins' Dianetic program, when you can rip off somebody else's product?

The good things in Scientology are made by individuals who care.

Mimsey

 

[JustSheila]

They were driven away. They didn't shut down voluntarily. They were destroyed by a vengeful god. They were too successful delivering a viable alternative. They were made to sign NDE's and were paid off. Their group was attacked mercilessly. They have been gagged. David posted here a little bit then vanished. He can't say shit because of what he signed. He's not a Gerry Armstrong who keeps on talking.

Why, after that treatment would they remain iin the flock?

Mayo did have a going thing for a while, and it proves my point - it can work if delivered in a sane fashion. They delivered the whole damn bridge. lock, stock and barrel.

Mimsey

Mimsey, you're reading something else into this.

Yes, I know all about what David and Julie Mayo went through with the courts.

The thousands and thousands of individual scientologists who got services through the Mayo missions all LEFT SCIENTOLOGY COMPLETELY though.

Things didn't go perfectly at Mayo's missions, either. There was a death. I'm sure other things went wrong, too. If it was such a paradise, they would have stuck it out, secretly or otherwise, or at least some of them would still be scns if they really believed it was so fabulous. In the end, they were all convinced otherwise, and David Mayo himself thought the OT levels were a bunch of BS, as well as most (or all) of the other scn basics.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

They were driven away. They didn't shut down voluntarily. They were destroyed by a vengeful god. They were too successful delivering a viable alternative. They were made to sign NDE's and were paid off. Their group was attacked mercilessly. They have been gagged. David posted here a little bit then vanished. He can't say shit because of what he signed. He's not a Gerry Armstrong who keeps on talking.

Why, after that treatment would they remain iin the flock?

Mayo did have a going thing for a while, and it proves my point - it can work if delivered in a sane fashion. They delivered the whole damn bridge. lock, stock and barrel.

Mimsey

Mimsey, I can't recall the exact wording but David did post something (here) at some point around 5 years ago saying that he felt the whole thing (and his part in it) was a complete waste of time ... he didn't seem to be anything but a true ex to me and though he is gagged he managed to convey with a few "likes" and a few short posts his complete lack on interest in all things scientology and his enjoyment of his new life free from scio (he loves organic gardening).

I remember that a few people (freezoners) were really happy to see him (when he briefly joined ESMB) and were keen to relive the old days (from his squirrel group) and he really didn't want to know ... you could feel it, I'm pretty sure he's moved on and I don't think he believes in the tek at all now.